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lamp question

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by moojoe, Jan 25, 2005.

  1. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

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    i feel kind of stupid for asking this, but what is the difference between a HX601 and a HX603 lamp? im guessing one is higher output and the other is longer life, but which is which?
     
  2. DJErik07

    DJErik07 Active Member

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  3. TechnicalDirector3-W

    TechnicalDirector3-W Member

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    The differences between the two lamps are basically the Lumans, but also the color temp and the filament type. THe 601 has 12800 lumans and the 603 has 1200 lumans.
     
  4. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    It would seem Bulbconnection's notes on the Ushio lamp are different than mine or that of my on-line connection with Ushio technical specs. Ushio secifies this lamp as of tonight as up to date info if accurate. The actual color temperature is 3,200°K Very much not unusual for the specifications of a lamp to change year to year and month to month thus my own pain in the rear in tracking them. I think this color temperature is incorrect.

    Hmm, thanks for the Thorn/GE new part number to replace the discontinued #37404 for the same description. Thought this lamp was discontinued given that last time I bought it, it was a 120v lamp not a 115v lamp. Still it's a new part number added to my notes. In additng to bulb connection's notes it's LCL of 2.3/8".


    So what's best, FLK/LL (HX-601) GE#38730
    FLK/LL (JCV115v-575wCM) Ushio #1002196
    HX-603 Thorn/GE #36915

    By the way, beyond comparing simple lamp secs, it is very not much a stupid question much less it is even a good challenge for me as someone that does this type of thing for a living.

    First consider cost effectiveness in laying out a chart of all the information given or known about these lamps. I won't consider the cost but it does play a factor in getting the best lamp you can afford given the situation warrents getting the best verses something that is more cost effective otherwise.

    Given all lamps are long life, we verify that at that voltage all at 115v are 1,500 hours in life.

    Second we take a quick look at the filament type just for shock resistance and ruggedness.

    Both brands of FLK/LL which is not a actual ANSI code lamp list a cc-8 filament. The last listing for a HX-603 lists as cc-13D filament which is much more heavy duty but also possibly larger in size.

    Given it's the same size and type of filament as the last 120v incarnation of this also non-ANSI lamp, we can assume that the HX-603 will have a more rugged filament to things like shock or line voltalge spikes. On the other hand, and only by a guess, the cc-8 filament will probably be a better lamp for projecting graphics from due to it's expected smaller size.

    Next we balance color temperature and luminous output with each other.

    The Thorn/GE owned HX-603 lists 3,050°K but does not list it's 12,000 Lumen output by way of this website.

    The GE HX-601 / FLK/LL 3,050°K and 12,800 Lumens

    The Ushio lamp is the same by specifications as the GE lamp except it has a 3,200°K color temperature if you trust the specs. I'm not sure If I would given it's a long life lamp having the same listed color temperature as the high output FLK lamp. Normally when you exchange life for output, the color temperature also drops in a way similar to that reflected in the GE lamp. I would say both are the same in output and specs and the Ushio on-line specs have a typo as not unusual amongst any vendor.

    So given that it's expected to be just a vendor type of typo and the GE and Ushio are basically the same lamp we can see their similar prices reflected by this supplier's own costs for the lamp. Otherwise if this Ushio lamp has been improved by way of color temperature vastly above what is otherwise known similar lamps can, than the Ushio lamp would be a much better choice. Given it's not, it should be the same lamp.

    Also we see by the specifications that the HX-603 is a really heavy duty lamp. Has the same filament for all intensive purposes as a PAR 64 or Fresnel, though a less output than the other two.

    Is it worth the extra money? Perhaps very much so for such a thing as a shin buster or over the stage electric if the fixture cap might be hit by something coming in. The savings in lamps not blowing up arbitrailary alone would be worth the extra cost. I play tested the origional 120v version of this lamp and it was a darned good lamp.

    Now onto what to buy... none of them in my opinion. (Remember, this is my opinion as a tech person that studies especially this type of lamp, not as a representitave for where I work or sales person in general. - Don't need any more problems with helping people for free when it comes to lamps - note that I'm also staying off the subject of pricing.)

    All these lamps are dead ends on the Darwin lamp chain.

    Instead since the 120v version of the HX-603 is no longer available as a true rugged long life and 120v lamp of high quality, the 115v version won't be as useful. It will still be a very good lamp in comparison, but 10 years from now you will no longer see any of these on the market I theorize. Much better lamps on the market.



    The GLA series of HP-600X or HX-605 or HP-601 as a temporary designation by many vendors is a far superior line of lamp and what temporary HX or HP designation they give it are much better. Actually, I think the HX-603 is by part number really a #37404 in accuracy but still 115v.

    The GE/Thorn GLA/HX-605, Philips GLA/#6992P, Osram GLA-575/115/2000, Ushio GLA/HP-601 line of ANSI code long life HX-600 type of lamp is much better. While it does not have the double coil filament of the HX-603, it does have a single coil c-13D filament that is just as well supported, just less in say thickness of wire supported.

    The GE/Thorn is rated for 3,050°K; 13,000 Lum; 1,500 hours
    Philips is rated for 3,100°K; 13,000 Lum; 1,500hours
    Osram/Sylvania is rated for 3,050°K; 10,500 Lum; 2,000hours
    and Ushio is rated for 3,100°K; 12,500 Lum; 1,500hours

    As you can see, there is a wide difference between brands - at least in what they specify, but what is not shown is that the filament type is much more compact and refined for use in optical systems and in all ways the GLA series has advantages over any of the other lamps given the range of product available either in super long life or much better output.
    This in addition to a more point source double stack to the filament that even on a less efficient fixture will help it's output over that of a lamp with a larger filament. The more refined the filament, the more light is physically getting out of the fixture.

    If you note say a Strand SL line of fixture, there is a reason it's using a GLA and not a FLK/LL. Optics is everything once you have the compact filament taking advantage of it. Given a less efficient fixture optically, it still will benefit by a more compact source of light.

    At the moment, and in my opinion, the Philips GLA lamp is the best long life lamp on the market. This will change once Osram comes out with the HPR 575/115LL long life lamp they I think are still developing. Once it comes out it will be 15 to 20% more efficient yet.

    Hope it helps, I'm sure elsewhere on the forum I have posted a complete list of all the lamps of this type on the market.
     
  5. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

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    thanks ship.
    one thing i frogot to mention, i have a box of both types of lamps, so it wouldnt be buying any more lamps. i just have to decide which to put into a shakespeare for a gobo which i need to have as powerful as possible
    (projecting a palace built out of pure light, so...needs to be as bright as possible)
     
  6. Mayhem

    Mayhem Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Then based upon what ship has said, use the HX601 as this uses the cc-8 filament and has a higher output (if I am reading and understanding correctly). The smaller filament will produce a more even output and less "shadowing" from the filament itself. Thus, would be better suited to gobo projection.

    However, given that you have both types in stock. Why don't you try both and compare the difference?
     
  7. SuperCow

    SuperCow Active Member

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    There's no substitute for trial and error, in my opinion!
     
  8. Les

    Les Well-Known Member

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    Also, make sure your lamp is centered correctly. This can also affect the brightness and definition of your gobo projection. I'm sure you already know this.
     
  9. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Bench focus and donuts are good. Donut being a term not a food unless really broke.

    One for pattern projection might also go with a refined high output lamp in fixtures that are to be presenting a pattern or special purpose. As long as you can ensure that these fixtures get their normal lamp re-installed after the show, there is good value in a few say HPR 575/115v lamps in stock specifically for this use. Might only have a lamp life of 300 hrs. at 115v, but given the pattern is not a wash light, or used as much it as an investment for this purpose otherwise in a theater using sound fiscal responsibility in using the long life lamps for budget purposes, will still be able to find use in a better lamp for specific purposes.

    After that, and as Mayhem cited, I would use the FLK/LL lamps for image projection and save the HX-603 lamps for the shin busters, booms and over the stage yoked up fixtures. In other words, this well supported lamp will be much more rugged.

    After these lamps are gone, I would start replacing them with the GLA series of lamp especially for Shakespeare fixtures. Even if designed around the FLK/HX-600 lamp as the FLK/LL or HX-603 becomes the long life version, were it choice today or by way of if they upgraded their specifications for lamp to fixture, I'm sure it would recommend the GLC (high output) and GLA lamps.

    This given they did not recommend the HPR line of lamp which by design is a internal reflectorized FLK, but given the technology it might be an improved GLC instead. That internal reflector being the key in completing the hole in the ellipsoidal reflector cut out for the lamp to fit into it.

    Beyond the lamp, a good bench focus for the specific range of throw, and often a donut in the pattern slot will work wonders for a clean image.
     
  10. Radman

    Radman Well-Known Member

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    The biggest question I have is how the heck do you type that degree symbol!
     
  11. DJErik07

    DJErik07 Active Member

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    ya no kidding
     
  12. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    My lamp tables are in word perfect thus it's just (contrl W) to get to the symbol part of that word processor. The symbol than posts to the forum by way of my copying on some notes or becomes something like E} in places that don't recognize the symbol.

    Too bad the tables don't directly post here and I'm too computer illiterate to make them do so.

    In any case, given I have my notes in Word Perfect, and the rest of the world communicates in Word and other formats, it forms a bit of job security for me in that I'm the only one that has access to these prices on lamps and notes about them. Our IT person is constantly comfounded with this problem, but lives or accepts by now that since I have so much info written into a program, and have better things to do with my time, I'm not going to waste it in re-formatting to another language that others can use.

    While I would add just one more column for the date the note was updated that wont' fit on a Word Perfect in this case 8.1/2x11 page size as a format that allows you to print what you write as opposed to MS Word that allows for as large a table as you wish but won't print it or is as easy to use for non-computer people in using the table.

    In any case, the degree symbol might be something Dave can add. Otherwise I'm sure as a symbol many word processors have. In this case, I have lots of lamp specs hand typed and thus have the symbol installed.
     
  13. bdesmond

    bdesmond Active Member

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    On a PC:

    Start>run>charmap

    You can find whatever symbol you wish to write in there. Onc eyou find what you want, look on the bottom, and you see a number code. Hold down your left Alt key, and using the numeric keypad with numlock on (the numbers across the top WONT work), punch in the four digit code. Alt + 0186 got me a degree:

    19º

    In MS Word, you can goto Insert>Symbol. Pay attention to their keyboard codes - there's a handy dandy pattern for special characters so you don't have to go there all teh time.

    Ship - tell your IT guy to be happy he only has one WordPerfect user. Lawyers have this thing where they all use WordPerfect and AOL. Small law firms will revolve around AOL and WordPerfect. Corporate legal departments will hopefully use their corporate emails, but, while the entire enterprise is running MS Word, they'll all be punching away in WordPerfect.

    I personally have no idea how the hell to use it, and my experience is limited to the above - legal departments.
     
  14. Radman

    Radman Well-Known Member

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    º
    sweet
     
  15. bdesmond

    bdesmond Active Member

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    Forgot to put this thought in the first post

    ship - What lamp do you recommend on a Strand SL when projecting a pattern?

    They're normally lamped with a GLC 575W. T22 type base I think.

    Couple scenarios - straight down at about 17' elevation from teh bottom of the barrel

    Doing some trig here:

    From the FOH catwalk, about 33' throw usually, 49deg angle of incidence.
     
  16. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    The GLC is the recommended lamp for the fixture.

    The specifications for the HPR lamp says it's based off a FLk instead of a GLC with a much more HPL like refined filament. Possible given the difficulty they state in inserting this reflector in why they can't do it on a HPL lamp. Can't say I have ever seen a GLC lamp proper. What is your high school doing with such lamps anyway - not very cost effective for a high school.

    However given the HPR is the most modern lamp on the market at this time, I have doubts about this based upon a FLK/HX-600 as opposed to dumming down the advertising since very few customers would know what a GLC is. Much less Osram calls it the HP-600/GLC thus given the HX-600 as opposed to HPL style of HP filament, it's otherwise the same lamp. Note also the HPR being similar to HPL and HP. Such lamps are not ANSI lamps thus the letters do mean something.

    I ought to look at one of the HPR's as opposed to a GLA and FLK, but at very least given the internal reflector with the increased efficiency, it would be quite the real life shoot out in fixtures between a GLC and HPR lamp for what's best both graphically and intensity wise.

    Should you wish and since I was given a free sample at one point, I'll loan you my sample to try it. Otherwise contact Sylvania/Osram directly to see if this test I think I posted a link to is still going on including the swag T-Shirt for taking the test in addition to the free lamp. Since you would not get to keep my own lamp, having your own would be by far better. If the test is not going on any longer, contact me off line and I'll forward you to the midwest entertainment lighting rep for them in you giving a personal request.

    As for Word Perfect, I'm sure he is happy I'm the only one as Friday is the day he has a look at my computer problems especially with File Maker Pro 7 that has locking up issues with only my computer. For me, I ain't giving way. If he wants the info I have, he had at best get everyone else using the program I wrote it in hadn't he? I won't budge from my stance and if the company want's the info, what's a few more copies of a program as opposed to a few moving lights anyway?
     
  17. bdesmond

    bdesmond Active Member

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    GLC is what's recommended by Strand & what the vendor used for the install, last time I restocked the lamp supply, not knowing any better just reloaded on the same type. I've had consistent trouble trying to get a pattern to be very sharp with the Strand SLs and GLC lamps - it would be nice to have a half dozen of some other lamp possibly that could be swapped in for a much sharper image as necessary.

    I've been following these past few threads about different lamp types closely. I've still got a decent stock of the GLCs given the nubmer of leko's that use them, though I've been blowing through the things alot faster than usual lately, so, might be time to restock in the next few months.

    I know I'm nearly out of lamps for the S4 PARs, they've always had HPLs in them, I have to go peek at the other lamp threads and reread this one, as I can't remember anything clearly about this particular one.

    Do you know where you posted that link or what the thread was about? I'll try and hunt it down, but no diea where to start looking.

    Thanks

    My condolences to your IT guy - FileMaker Pro *too*? MS Word has a whoel WordPerfect convert mode - they setup little tips and what have you so when you try to do something the WordPerfect way, Word tells you the Word way. That aside, from what I've heard, FileMaker Pro guru's/devs can make a good buck, not a huge supply of them.
     
  18. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    We also run Hire Track in another program that don't communicate with the others in addition to various designer type of programs on a PC and Mac system that's linked to three branches by cable and wireless. Our IT guy is becoming less and less a moving light repair type, and more full time IT.

    HPL lamps... There is lots of versions on the market, but all under the general description. Determine the wattage and voltage. Probably unless super long life and shock resistant is necessary, avoid the 120v line.

    Than GE, Osram, Philips and Ushio all make HPL lamps both in long life and high output. This important determination being a key factor. For a school, I would still follow the rule about going long life on standard fixtures, and high output on projections.

    I have heard lots of good things about the optics of a SL series of fixture thus it could be a bench focus question. Hang the fixture where it will be used, move a flat white target or screen into the place you want to project and optimize the lamp for that distance. I have problems with a in general 20' bench focus concept if not realistic to the range used.

    Still if nothing else, that bench focus will be better than nothing. If nothing else, take a few moments to optimize the fixture for a pattern as best you can each time you install a new lamp.

    Try a donut after that. match donut size up to image size as there is more than one size of hole available.



    -----Original Message-----
    From: OSRAMPhotoOptic [mailto:[email protected]]
    Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:01 PM
    Subject: HPR 575/115 Lamps: OSRAM Photo-Optic, May '03









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