Automated Fixtures LED Cyc Strip Lights

[Nahiyan Navid Haq]

Hello,
The highschool that I currently am working for is looking to purchase a new LED cyc strip light. Our cyc is 54 feet across and 25 feet high. I dont know about our budget yet but I think that we aren't gonna get a budget of anything more than $6000 for this purpose. By getting a new cyc light, we are hoping to decrease our electricity bills and replace our 30 year old conventional cyc lights. Anyone have any suggestions on any good LED cyc strip lights?

 

[RickR]

For that size you are likely looking at top and bottom rows and quite a few fixtures. I can't see it fitting into a $6K budget.

 

[Nahiyan Navid Haq]

I just got off the phone with my tech theater teacher and he said that we cant have anything on the ground. How big would our budget have to be in order to cover the entire cyc? Also, right now the fixture we have is a 30 year old ETC Source Four MultiPAR and the light from it reaches the ground, it just doesnt reach it very well anymore as half of it is broken and is not worth repairing

 

[derekleffew]

... right now the fixture we have is a 30 year old ETC Source Four MultiPAR ...

According to http://www.etcconnect.com/minisite/sourcefour/history.html , the Source Four MultiPAR debuted in 2002; so let's try eleven, rather than thirty, years old.

You're going to be hard-pressed to find any LED fixture (except the most expensive) that can compete with the light output of a Source Four PAR. The $6000 budget would buy approximately nine linear feet of ChromaQ ColorForce72, not including accessory lenses.

Perhaps we can lead you toward fixing what's broken on the fixtures you already have.

 

[Floobydust]

http://www.blizzardlighting.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=145:q-stick™-rgbw&Itemid=129

About $230 each from KPODJ.com
Put them close together and buy as much as you can.

 

[jglodeklights]

http://www.blizzardlighting.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=145:q-stick™-rgbw&Itemid=129

About $230 each from KPODJ.com
Put them close together and buy as much as you can.

In order to light a 54' cyc you would need 30 of those to light evenly across. However, as the cyc is 25' tall is it doubtful the coverage from top to bottom would be acceptably consistent. That's gonna be a lot of cable. Not going to fit into $6k. Also, how long each day are you running the cyc fixtures? It isn't going to save that much money on your electricity bill since you aren't likely to be running them except during shows and tech. If you are using them a lot outside of shows and tech, then it begs the question, "Why are they being used so often?"

If more even coverage is required than as provided by border strip style fixtures and you have pipes available downstage of the cyc where it would be necessary to hang them, then I would strongly consider the purchase of a standard CYC fixture. My favorite fixtures on the market right now are the Strand/Selecon HUI and Aurora. They don't cost signifcantly, if at all more, than comparable instruments from Altman. Yet, they offer a range of improvements from previous generations of instruments. These include an automatic disconnect of the lamps from power when the front of the instrument is opened to change a lamp, which is a result of the built in glass safety shield and heat management system. This helps your gel last longer. Also, HUI instruments get 4 cuts per sheet, and Aurora get 2 (versus one for the Altman Sky CYC fixtures). Little things that make them nicer- when used with the two Apollo manufacturered C-Clamps for mounting to the batten they are remarkably rigid as the yoke is designed to perfectly fit the clamp. You must use longer bolts in order to use a standard clamp. This means you can use only one of the side mounted tilt locks to adjust tilt focus. If you've ever really only been able to reach one side of a CYC instrument before because a set was in your way....you'll appreciate this. You can also use a single clamp to mount the instrument should you for some reason do a curved cyc or scenic piece.

 

[techieman33]

Fix your multipars, they can't be in that bad of shape.

 

[Les]

Are you sure you have MultiPars? There isn't a Source Four anything at or even approaching 30 years old. Aside from that technicality, what's wrong with them? The bi-pin sockets do wear out, but that's just a maintenance thing. Other than that, there's just not much to go wrong.

The Altman Spectra CYC is another good unit but like everything else, it is way outside of the prescribed budget range.

 

[Nahiyan Navid Haq]

According to http://www.etcconnect.com/minisite/sourcefour/history.html , the Source Four MultiPAR debuted in 2002; so let's try eleven, instead of thirty, year old.

You're going to be hard-pressed to find any LED fixture (except the most expensive) that can compete with the light output of a Source Four PAR. The $6000 budget would buy approximately nine linear feet of ChromaQ ColorForce72, not including accessory lenses.

Perhaps we can lead you toward fixing what's broken on the fixtures you already have.

That is an option we have considered but the principal says that it wouldn't save us much on electricity bills. The issue with our fixture is that a third of it just doesn't work anymore and a whole bunch of bulbs are broken and it seems like everyday a new bulb breaks. The board electrician says that we need to replace all of the bulbs, and that the fixtures circuits are defective causing a bulb to break everyday. Also, parts of the fixture flickers and the fixture is much dimmer than it previously used to be

 

[josh88]

An LED will certainly cut down on electricity costs but only over a long period of time and it likely won't be a noticeable difference. If Lamps are breaking that often, you should look at how they are being handle and put into a fixture. On top of that It sounds like you need to get your electrician to fix the issues with your circuits. That issue won't go away by switching to LEDs, you will be damaging fixtures you just paid a lot of money for instead of damaging lamps.

 

[kicknargel]

Check out this thread, and the related article. You may not get the power savings you'd think with LED:
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/interesting-power-consumption-article.34088/page-2#post-296625

I agree that if your fixtures are a Source Four product, it's probably better to repair than replace. I find the "fixtures circuits are defective causing a bulb to break everyday" argument dubious. Not sure what that defect would be. The only real way to cause premature lamp failure would be too much voltage, and there's no fault in a fixture that could cause that (that I'm aware of). Sometimes lamps that were all installed at the same time, and used about the same amount, will start to go out in a big batch. Once they've been replaced you'll be good again. You might date lamps you put in to see how long they're lasting. Also, check what kind of lamps you're using. Life ratings span from a couple hundred hours to a couple thousand. I'd say any school should be using a long-life lamp.

 

[Les]

What are the bad lamps coming out of the fixture looking like? If the filaments are broken, that would be something in the electrical system and not the fixture itself (or poor lamp handling practices). However, if the lamps appear good and just don't work, take a look at the pins. You could be getting to the point where the sockets in the fixture are wearing out. The flickering would be a symptom of this as well. It's not an expensive fix (about the cost of a lamp per 'cell'), but the strips would have to be pulled down.I don't know what could cause the fixture to be dimmer other than a building electrical problem as mentioned. That, or it could be dirty optics or simply placebo effect.

Ironically, if your principal wants a fixture that will save very much money on electricity bills, he will have to throw a lot more money in to the project upfront. No free lunch (yet).

 

[RickR]

3 thing will help us help you.

1. Photos of the bad fixtures. Just what they are and what is breaking.
2. How many do you have in total?
   
3. Estimate the number of hours the cyc lights actually get used. Saving money is as much about time as it is about wattage.

Typical school usage, current fixture prices and energy rates would likely make it cheaper to buy all new fixtures like you have than to replace them with LED.

Anyway how about inviting your TD to join the conversation? Since s/he and the principal will probably make the decision they might want the details of the conversation and ask some pointed questions.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

FWIW we estimate about $1000/foot for LED sky drop lighting fixtures. Yes - you can spread them out a little more than we do but it won't look nearly as good. SO 54' at 3' o.c. is 18 - S4 LED cycs - and PL cys form Strand won't be hugely different in cost - around $2700 or with cables and dmx distro - $50,000 to 55,000 - maybe a little less.

Calculate your total wattage with S4 multi pars and hours a day and days a year and kilowatt hour rate and and see how much you might save. Probably not enough to pay for these - probably by a mile. But if pushing energy savings do not discount cooling costs and occupied stages and auditoriums are usually cooling, rarely heating. And safety - LED's are much cooler than quartz.

 

[SteveB]

FWIW we estimate about $1000/foot for LED sky drop lighting fixtures. Yes - you can spread them out a little more than we do but it won't look nearly as good. SO 54' at 3' o.c. is 18 - S4 LED cycs - and PL cys form Strand won't be hugely different in cost - around $2700 or with cables and dmx distro - $50,000 to 55,000 - maybe a little less.

Calculate your total wattage with S4 multi pars and hours a day and days a year and kilowatt hour rate and and see how much you might save. Probably not enough to pay for these - probably by a mile. But if pushing energy savings do not discount cooling costs and occupied stages and auditoriums are usually cooling, rarely heating. And safety - LED's are much cooler than quartz.

Probably not much saved in electrical usage, but maybe in long term lamp costs. S4 750w @ 300 hours avg., X $13 per lamp VS. a 50, 000 hr. LED. 50,000 hours of incandescent is something like $2,000 in HPL's. Lot's of variables of course.

 

[DavidNorth]

Probably not much saved in electrical usage, but maybe in long term lamp costs. S4 750w @ 300 hours avg., X $13 per lamp VS. a 50, 000 hr. LED. 50,000 hours of incandescent is something like $2,000 in HPL's. Lot's of variables of course.

Don't forget to add in labor, if paid staff are doing the replacement work. Oh, replacement gel cost is also a consideration.

FYI most schools use the long life version of the lamps and one can get even longer life if the dimmers are profiled down to 95% or 90% of output. Yes, the light output is less and the color temp changes, we've talked about this before, but these are relative to the space and user.

So, cases can be made to pay for LEDs but they can easily be mitigated by knowledgeable existing fixture use.

David

 

[techieman33]

Your forgetting the costs when the cheap LED's fail and there are no spare parts to be found. Then maybe as soon as 1 to 2 years the whole setup needs to be replaced. In the professional world there is the chance of renting something to fill in while you try and repair the light yourself. Most schools won't have that option since no one on staff has a clue about repairing things like that. If I was going LED in a school I think I would aim more towards the down/back wash since that would be a little easier to work around a failure, or make something else blend in. Probably also more power efficient too since those lights are probably going to be on a whole lot more than the cyc lights.

 

[Nahiyan Navid Haq]

Thanks everyone fo rreplyign to the thread! I havent gotten to this forum for a while now. Ultimately, we ended up having to repair and retrofit our Source Four MultiPAR fixture. We had the circuits and stuff repaired and now have ordered new longneck LED bulbs for it. But, I am still unsure as to if its gonna produce a uniform wash from the top to the bottom. If someone knows any way to fix that problem (without replacing the cyc) let me know. Also, the fixture currently produces RGA colours, would it be wise to change the lenses to be CMY?

 

[Les]

You must not have what you think you have. There is no LED retrofit for the Multipar. Are you sure you don't have R40 or A-lamp strips with screw-base lamps? The Multipar uses bi-pin 575w HPL lamps.

Also, no on the CMY. RGB(A) is additive mixing, which is what you want with multiple fixtures. CMY is subtractive - a whole different ballgame.

I would replace the amber with blue - much more useful. If you really want to keep the amber, replace the green with it. While you can get a kind-of amber by mixing red and green, it's more of a sickly green, rather than golden amber color.

 

[Beans45601]

If you actually do have Source Four MultiPARs, you should consider yourself lucky! A side note, somehow having a 'bad circuit' that causes lamps to burn out isn't a thing that is happening, unless you have a *very* big problem and somehow that circuit is getting more than 120 volts. The reason it feels like you are changing lamps all the time, is because you may be. If you have 30+ lamps in those cyc lights, it is possible that one is going out every couple weeks, simply because you have so many.