LED lighting, I'm the DUMMIE!!

[postmaster]

HUGE thank you

I just wanted to give a HUGE thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread and all the help I have received. Wow, what great response. All of you have been a great help. Happy Turkey day, I am going out of town for the rest of the week, no computers allowed, so talk to you next week.
Doug

 

[hobbsies]

Hummmm.... I would say that there are three little words that make even club lighting a heart stopper.....

"Set list change."

Nothing like a lead singer announcing they are about to do a number that you have nothing programed for, or have even heard of the song before! (We've all been there, and usually have some tricks up our selves, but it can be nerve wracking.)

For the last 3 years I've run a jazz concert using a rig designed for a theatrical show with almost no fixtures pointed at the stage where the band is playing. Pretty much show up an hour or 2 beforehand, pre-program some faders for the movers (this is on an express mind you), find some conventional fixtures that somewhat hit the stage, and then fly by the seat of my pants for the rest of the show.

I've accidentally captured all channels and brought them to full, scared the **** out of the audience, and released them (woops!), also blacked out by accident once, had the movers reset and live move during a performance, among many other issues while trying to make the lighting perty. It usually ends up looking pretty cool and despite the occasional mistake, the producers are happy. They couldn't run a light board to save their lives.

 

[MPowers]

I've been following this thread for a while and now I feel I should comment.

The fact that the proposed new truss is apparently being designed, engineered and built by professional structural personnel is a good thing.

The fact that it is being designed, engineered and built by people who are not professionals in the entertainment industry is frightening.

The biggest potential problems here are two fold.

First design. The 15' truss height mentioned by the OP seems at first glance to be a bit low for the size stage. A professional lighting designer or theatre consultant should be engaged to help with this determination. They would also be better equipped to advise on the position and location of support towers both left and right and up and down.

Second, the engineers may or may not be competent to judge forces and design factors needed for free standing outdoor structures, especially with wind sails and other roof structures. I would want to be sure they were aware of the Indiana and the ?Calgary? structure failures this last year.

Keep us posted on the progress of this project.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

Everyone has lost their minds!

Can no one comprehend the difference between this:

and this?

 

[MPowers]

....Can no one comprehend the difference......

The OP has stated that the $$ person likes the look of truss and later stated that they didn't want DMX cable running from truss to truss, giving the impression that there at least two, free standing trusses. He has also said it won't have a conventional roof. Even though it sounds like they are planning a permanent structure, it also sounds like it will be very similar in construction to stage truss. If the material is aluminum tube and the construction is similar in appearance to standard entertainment industry truss, then it will have many of the same potential issues in terms of stability. Until the OP provides us with a sketch or more specific description of the planned structure, there is room for concern.

 

[len]

Everyone has lost their minds!

Can no one comprehend the difference between this:

Isn't that Slipknot's last stage?

 

[Gern]

So, you bought an ION for your personal use?

No, I bought my Ion for work. I am a gig-to-gig professional programmer by trade; I feel there is a benefit to owning my own console. I feel having my own will make me more valuable. Maybe, maybe not. It went to work immediately on a TV show and is now on its 2nd season. When I bought my Ion, it’s use was decidedly NOT to be used for freebies. Even though covered by my insurance policy, I won’t take it out on just any gig. I have done free ‘personal’ lighting for friends family(using Magic Gadget Shadow-makers , clip lights, pars & lekos) and charities(using consoles & full rigs owned by the charity, or with rental companies being paid or donating the rig). The only freebie an Ion has done, I gladly went in on a moments notice to help a friend do a live show for a weekend. The vendor “threw in, no cost” an old console that my friend couldn’t run. I had 24 S4‘s, 4 movers, a dozen other DMX fixtures trucked from my shop, patched, wrung out & palletized in 2 hours. It worked out flawlessly, and everyone was pleased. It truly felt great to do a relatively easy gig(Theatrical stage show 88 cues) and have it go smooth with all happy.

I did make the decision that if I get a programming gig, and I cannot get compensated for the Ion, that alone would not stop me from taking the gig. Being a professional I need a back up plan so I bought an 2nd Ion. I like the new color too.

Spending extra money for stuff you don't need isn't "cool".

OK, fine, I’m a hoarder. That’s a problem. Yet, ALL my DMX gear gets used every day I work and even at home, so that part isn’t hoarding. The rest of the shop is surely another story.

There are no style points given for equipment brand. If you saw a show and thought it was good, would you change your opinion if you found out they used an ADJ lighting console?

My dad worked on the first SR-71 & put up Americas first spy Satellite, I was trained by him: “The sourness of poor quality long outlasts the sweetness of a ‘good deal’.
So I appreciate quality products, is that soo wrong? lol. I try to not be materialistic, but If it is useful, I love it. I sold my Rolex my bro gave as a gift. Maybe it's worth it to Ted Turner, those Rolex's, but not to me! My bro was cool about it!
I will Wholeheartedly stand behind ETC, as they have stood behind me over the years and even kept my shows running when I’ve been at a loss of what to do to fix the problem

If you saw a show and thought it was good, would you change your opinion if you found out they used an ADJ lighting console?

Heck yeah, my (you probably think prima donna tush) would be truly MORE impressed like the other member said!

I too PM'ed the OP:

Hi postmaster,
I want to make sure that you don't miss my message of care & concern that you understand my post suggesting an Ion.
I don't know you, but I give you full respect as I do all, so I don't want to mis-lead you.
Reading your post it was most STRIKING to me that you have a chance to do a project where there is real funding. So often it seems I hear, " We don't have the (any) money, but we want ... (fill in the costly desire)"
So, YES, MOST certainly, my suggestion of a $10,000-$15,000 lighting console is 'over the top'!! There are plenty of less expensive( therefore less capable, IMO) console to do the task at hand. Making my Ion suggestion 'crazy' to most folks here on Control Booth. I would never have gone there if your post didn't mention what it did. I have not done price comparisons, but I was understanding good LED pars @ costing approx. $1,000 ea.. Waterproof might be more? Therefore, I felt your business will know this is a potentially expensive project. I feel the Ion can be programmed to have faders set-up with enough "looks" like cues, effects, groups, specials, etc. that a non educated programmer can run a show. The elo brand touch monitors (I use model 1928L, $750 ea.) make quick adjustments on the fly really nice. I don't know where you are located, but I'd think you could hire a programmer to come do the set up & train your personnel( a job I and many many people do for a living) and you'd be set to go. Also, when you have an expensive (Ion or other brand) you can get great insight & support from the folks here on CB.
So, take my post with a grain of salt, please don't be offended thinking I was trying to do something wrong by you. I have no reason to think you feels that way, from your responses, but I saw the other members freaking out and want to reach out to you to be clear. I don't mean to come off as a jerk. Sometimes it happens & I really didn't mean to.
Someone said you don't get extra "style points" for brands. I won't argue that. I WILL say IMHO, "You do get GREAT customer service with ETC(makers of the Ion). ETC has REPEATEDLY gone above & beyond the norm to help, solve issues and make end users happy. It's not just a philosophy, it has truly saved my gigs thousands of dollars over the years!! ETC's 24/7 live phone support that is unmatched in the industry.
My professional lighting career began in the 1980's doing International Arena Rock shows on very expensive, top of the line equipment, like Avo consoles costing >$80,000. To date my preferences for top of the line consoles still cost over $80,000. I was a firefighter on vacation in N.Z. when I got hooked up with a tour and taken for the rest of their run. They let me 'do the lights' for the opening band and I was hooked immediately.
I've been lighting professionally as a sole career ever since, working on Films, TV, commercials, live concerts etc. in Hollywood and I admit I usually get what gear I ask for. I love the 2 Ion consoles I own and use every day @ work(In my world I must have a back-up) and I plan on using them till I retire(die, lol). Unless I sell them to upgrade to the higher level consoles Gio or Eos.
I wish you the best & I will gladly explain or answer any questions I can. Lucky for both of us finding Control Booth, as it is frequented by the people I respect the most in the Lighting industry.
Gern 310-xxx-xxxx.
BTW. if you ever visit LA, I gladly bring guests to stage, & show them Hollywood.

 

[postmaster]

I am still keeping up with this thread, but have not had any time after the holiday. Still trying to catch up! Thanks for all the help.
Doug

 

[Morte615]

I would presume by the information in this thread that the OP is going with something similar to the first picture, over the second. Though clarification on that would be nice

If that is what he is going with then the rigging aspects become simpler (not easy, just simpler) and come into something that those inside theaters see everyday. If that is the setup they are going with then I would recommend an US/DS setup and depending on final design possibly some pipe permanently installed on the legs of the structure to allow more light placement.

I too PM'ed the OP:

Hi postmaster,
I want to make sure that you don't miss my message of care & concern that you understand my post suggesting an Ion.
I don't know you, but I give you full respect as I do all, so I don't want to mis-lead you.
Reading your post it was most STRIKING to me that you have a chance to do a project where there is real funding. So often it seems I hear, " We don't have the (any) money, but we want ... (fill in the costly desire)"
So, YES, MOST certainly, my suggestion of a $10,000-$15,000 lighting console is 'over the top'!! There are plenty of less expensive( therefore less capable, IMO) console to do the task at hand. Making my Ion suggestion 'crazy' to most folks here on Control Booth. I would never have gone there if your post didn't mention what it did. I have not done price comparisons, but I was understanding good LED pars @ costing approx. $1,000 ea.. Waterproof might be more? Therefore, I felt your business will know this is a potentially expensive project. I feel the Ion can be programmed to have faders set-up with enough "looks" like cues, effects, groups, specials, etc. that a non educated programmer can run a show. The elo brand touch monitors (I use model 1928L, $750 ea.) make quick adjustments on the fly really nice. I don't know where you are located, but I'd think you could hire a programmer to come do the set up & train your personnel( a job I and many many people do for a living) and you'd be set to go. Also, when you have an expensive (Ion or other brand) you can get great insight & support from the folks here on CB.
So, take my post with a grain of salt, please don't be offended thinking I was trying to do something wrong by you. I have no reason to think you feels that way, from your responses, but I saw the other members freaking out and want to reach out to you to be clear. I don't mean to come off as a jerk. Sometimes it happens & I really didn't mean to.
Someone said you don't get extra "style points" for brands. I won't argue that. I WILL say IMHO, "You do get GREAT customer service with ETC(makers of the Ion). ETC has REPEATEDLY gone above & beyond the norm to help, solve issues and make end users happy. It's not just a philosophy, it has truly saved my gigs thousands of dollars over the years!! ETC's 24/7 live phone support that is unmatched in the industry.
My professional lighting career began in the 1980's doing International Arena Rock shows on very expensive, top of the line equipment, like Avo consoles costing >$80,000. To date my preferences for top of the line consoles still cost over $80,000. I was a firefighter on vacation in N.Z. when I got hooked up with a tour and taken for the rest of their run. They let me 'do the lights' for the opening band and I was hooked immediately.
I've been lighting professionally as a sole career ever since, working on Films, TV, commercials, live concerts etc. in Hollywood and I admit I usually get what gear I ask for. I love the 2 Ion consoles I own and use every day @ work(In my world I must have a back-up) and I plan on using them till I retire(die, lol). Unless I sell them to upgrade to the higher level consoles Gio or Eos.
I wish you the best & I will gladly explain or answer any questions I can. Lucky for both of us finding Control Booth, as it is frequented by the people I respect the most in the Lighting industry.
Gern 310-xxx-xxxx.
BTW. if you ever visit LA, I gladly bring guests to stage, & show them Hollywood.

I agree with you, and even suggested the ION (or at least an express) for the OP myself. Though they may not be in a location that is expected to have many road shows, that should always be considered. And the ION is the perfect board to host just about any band and their own equipment (and it's on a lot of bands rider also!) Also I feel the room for expansion should be factored in from the beginning so that when they decide to add more (and it's a pretty good chance they will ) they don't have to redo infrastructure.
As to your mention of cost, I have done the price comparison, and yes LED PARs that do what the OP is wanting cost upwards of $1,000 (especially if he wants the weather proof versions!) I do feel that it may be possible, depending on how the structure is built, to sufficiently protect the truss from the weather and bring the cost down significantly by using standard LED fixtures. But that is a decision for the OP and his bosses about if the trade off is worth the uncertainty. (I actually work for a large amusement park in the summer and have been told that some of our $600-800 lights are "disposable" and if they quit working that we will just replace them! though that's what you get with a LARGE budget entity)

But back to your post, I agree that if you are spending that much per light you should get a board that will allow you to use the lights to their full capabilities, while also being simple enough to use that someone who does not know the board intimately can use it to run a simple show. I know there are other brands and boards out there that can do this but I am an ETC fan-boy though I think when you start getting to this level of control then the boards are pretty comparable in price.

And to the OP I am now caught up in the project and would like to see how it turns out! LOL (also I have sent you a new PM with some updated information, responding to your last PM to me)

And I also am glad that I found Control Booth! I was doing this work kinda on the fringe and gaining as much experience as I could for the last couple of years, it's great to have a place to come and discuss and share everything that I have learned throughout the years. While also learning more than I have in such a short time that I have been a member here!

Till next time, have a great day!

 

[Kelite]

Hi Doug,
I look forward to hearing more about this potential outdoor club atmosphere as do the others here at the CB. When it gets closer to reviewing outdoor rated LED fixtures I'd be happy to send an RGB and/or RGBAW for you to play with.

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(Would this venue happen to be on S. Adams Ave?)

 

[postmaster]

Kelite,
Thanks, I will keep everyone informed. We are going to be looking at lights in about 60 days, near the end of February.

The venue is at 133 W. Washington in the 1896 Old Post Office. The Post Office building is the indoor bar and fine dining restaurant with the stage and outdoor patio between the Post Office and the Sillman building.

I will try to get some photos and post those.
Doug

Hi Doug,
I look forward to hearing more about this potential outdoor club atmosphere as do the others here at the CB. When it gets closer to reviewing outdoor rated LED fixtures I'd be happy to send an RGB and/or RGBAW for you to play with.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

(Would this venue happen to be on S. Adams Ave?)

 

[postmaster]

Thought I would give everybody an update on this project.

They poured the stage yesterday and it looks great. All red brick facade with 20amps available on each corner (80 amps total), a single line for the dmx (owner decided to do a square truss and doesn't mind the dmx wire running from the back truss to the front truss) so we won't be needing a splitter. Have another 80 amps available for sound. Ran two 2" conducts to the mixing booth to carry the dmx and the audio snake. We have another 20 amps available at the booth. Used the advice from this thread and I hope I got everything right.

Going to be posting later about outdoor LED lights and looking forward to the advice on that one.
Exciting project. We are planning our first show for March 9.
Doug

 

[chausman]

Going to be posting later about outdoor LED lights and looking forward to the advice on that one.
Exciting project. We are planning our first show for March 9.
Doug

So possibly something like this from Apollo might do what you want?

 

[shiben]

The OP has stated that the $$ person likes the look of truss and later stated that they didn't want DMX cable running from truss to truss, giving the impression that there at least two, free standing trusses. He has also said it won't have a conventional roof. Even though it sounds like they are planning a permanent structure, it also sounds like it will be very similar in construction to stage truss. If the material is aluminum tube and the construction is similar in appearance to standard entertainment industry truss, then it will have many of the same potential issues in terms of stability. Until the OP provides us with a sketch or more specific description of the planned structure, there is room for concern.

I guess I got the impression they were gonna build a roof type thing, cover it in a sail instead of shingles, and hang truss from that. Im sure a tornado could knock down your standard picnic shelter, as could a hurricane, but I doubt any sort of portable staging system of any kind in any condition, up or down, would stand up to either of those either. Im also fairly sure you could engineer a picnic structure to hold a lot of mass on top of it, maybe make the uprights out of 4" square tube and fill with concrete? Or just use H columns... If they build buildings for the DoD, they can probably figure out how to build one you can hang some trusses from, and probably even one that can be wind resistant on some level.