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Mixing brands and wattages - movers

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Daveslights, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. Daveslights

    Daveslights Member

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    currently I have 4 coemar prospot 250's. We're looking to add some more, and are considering getting 4 more, maybe Mac 250's or Technobems. We've also kicked around the idea of gettting 2 575w fixtures.

    Has anyone had experience doing this? Will it look weird having 2 fixtures twice as bright as the rest?

    and are there certain fixtures that will mix well with Coemar's?
     
  2. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    "Looking weird" is totally subjective. It will look however you design it to look. It doesn't look weird if you use source 4s and 360Qs in the same plot, as long as you know how to work them.

    I think you need to tell us a little more about what you use your equipment for and such before we can really give you advice.
     
  3. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    It all depends on how you plan to use them if different wattages will effect what you are doing. I have in the past used mirror 250 fixtures with 575 moving head fixtures before. As long as you are aware that the 575s are going to be much brighter, everything is fine. For example, I used the 575s with darker colors and with gobos more since they are punchier. The 250s, I would use with brighter colors for more general washes. I would also use the 575s for specials while the 250s still did there thing.

    You can also just dim the 575s if you need the intensities to match for any reason. Just be aware that for anything involving video recording, 250s tend to have a higher color temperature then 575s to help make them brighter.

    As far as fixture mixing, are you trying to match gobos and colors? Thats the only reason why not to mix fixtures. I have been on any number of shows in which I used Macs, Studio Spots, and/or VLs for the same show for different reasons. Look to see what features attract you the most if you aren't worried about color and gobos matching, more so color because gobos are easily changed.
     
  4. JD

    JD Well-Known Member

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    It depends on how you are using them in the show. If you have a truss and run mixed lights across it that are working together, it will look really odd. However if the lights are used for different purposes from different locations, you can get away with a lot. For example, if your 250's are overhead, and your 575's are on the floor, then it won't look bad. If your beam angles are tight on the 250's and wide on the 575's, the intensity will look closer. Remember, lights always look brighter if they're aimed at you, so if some of your locations are aimed at the audience, and some are aimed at the stage (like for a band or dance), the 250's will look brighter to the audience than the 575's hitting the stage. Having a mix is often better than having only one type. There are always going to be positions that eat light, and this gives you the option of cranking things up for those positions. ;)

    EDIT:
    Wow! Looks like a lot of posts came in at the same time, so some of the info is redundant, but it all looks like we're thinking the same thing!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2007
  5. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Nah, I just read your minds as I typed :lol:.
     
  6. Daveslights

    Daveslights Member

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    I guess that was a little vague. It's for a rock band. I'm trying to match colors as best as I can.

    I would either put the 250s up on t-stands and the 575s on cases or the 575s on two truss sticks and the 250s on cases.
     
  7. JD

    JD Well-Known Member

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    Things flown look brighter than things on the floor. This is because to the eye, the device on the floor is competing with the light hitting the floor and background around it, whereas a flown fixture basically competes against the darkness behind it. (Of course if it gets too high, that's another matter!) T stands and movers are a little risky though....
     
  8. Daveslights

    Daveslights Member

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    I've heard people say that, but I've seen it done a lot. What's the deal, if the stand is rated for 200lbs and you put 100lbs is that still risky?
     
  9. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    The problem is that a t-stand might be rated for 200lbs vertically, not horizontally. If you have a 50lbs moving head or two swaying back and forth, it might tip over because it isn't rated for 100lbs horizontally (absolute worse case scenario). Moving mirrors have much less horizontal force as its only the mirror moving and not the whole head. This is why putting a moving head on a t-stand is dangerous. If its a stick of truss with two stands, the amount of horizontal force is spread between at least two stands and the truss, not just the stand its self now.

    I would agree with putting the 250s on stands/truss and 575s on the floor/cases. The 575s are more then bright enough to punch through 250s at that angle depending on color. I have also used 575s in the past at the side of the stage as side light to great effect with 250 mirrors on a truss in the back. You could also look into CMY fixtures, so color matching isn't as much a problem.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2007
  10. Raktor

    Raktor Active Member

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    From what I've read, moving mirrors are fine on t stands, but the moving heads are not.

    Not just the horizontal/vertical debate, but the fact that they are rated for a solid load coming down. If a moving head is still, it will only throw the amount of force equivalent to its weight on the bar; but if it's moving quickly it can put a lot of extra pressure down that can go beyond the support the t stand is rated for.

    Just what I've heard though, I'm not going to go do an experiment.
     
  11. JD

    JD Well-Known Member

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    Hee hee.. An extreme example of this was when Disney built "Test Track." In it, an 1100 pound car comes out of a straight-away and loops around a building at 60 mph. The 1100 pound car was moving the whole building! (fill in the blank X____ number of tons!) Took them about a year to straighten that one out!

    In the case of movers, most manufacturers recommend a safety factor of 10. In other words, if your light weighs in at 50 pounds, your support should handle 500. I think this recommendation needs some refinement as it's more about the balance of the moving load. If I stacked a single column of cinderblocks to 10 feet in height, I would still worry about putting a mover on top!
     
  12. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Yup JD, it depends on how and what you are attaching to. If placing a moving head on top of a stick of square truss with a 150lb steal base and nothing else, you would be fine. Evening if you added some lekos, still would probably be fine, could add sandbags just for extra safety. Now if I take that moving head and side mount it, you better load that base with sandbags and try to place lekos on side rungs to balance it out. All of this also depends on how heavy of a moving head you are talking about.

    Also, the more moving heads, the worse the force is. Try doing a truss light with a bunch of VL3000s or Mac 2ks on the same truss. It sways, a lot.
     
  13. Daveslights

    Daveslights Member

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    Interesting, I've seen a friend of mine hang two 55lb 250w moving heads on t bar stands for years with no problem. I also know someone else who uses a stick of truss with a 250w mover on top and one clamped to the front side.

    But I get it, it's a safety thing. So putting Technobeams on a Pipe and base stand is ok, right?
     
  14. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Yup, less moving parts = less force. And while you may have seen someone do it for years, there is always that possibility for that one chance it may fall. Someone just has to bump into the stand with those lights moving fairly fast, and its timber. The other thing this is all based off of is how much weight is at the bottom vs the top as well as how wide the bottom is vs the top and how high the lights are. The wider, more weight towards the bottom, and lower the lights are, the lower the center of gravity.

    I do a lot of corporate work, so if something falls, I never work again, so its just not worth the risk. I am use to over doing things for safety because I have to work off of worst case. The way I check things is I literally grab the pipe or truss and see how much it takes to make it sway. If I have to throw my body at it, its fine. If it just takes my arms, I add more sand bags. This is way over kill, but nothing has come close to falling over yet, even with a couple Mac 2ks at the top of a 20ft high truss going nuts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2007
  15. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Beyond now applying stickers “700w” or “1200w” on all Mac 700 or Mac 2K / VL-3K fixture spare lamps I send out these days so as to prevent the - really bright in an odd way until it exploded problems of the exact same box for both lamps, today I ran across a MSR 575HR lamp that got installed into a upgraded MSR 1200SA Cyber Light fixture by “oops.” mistake. Didn’t explode in an expensive taking out the reflector type of way, yet there was around $100.00 worth of lamp that’s now not just landfill but expensive moving light lamp recycling landfill. Hmm, G-22 lamp it would seem will work in a GY-22 lamp base - for a while. In this case before the upper lead in wire went super nova within the outer globe.

    Way too many fixtures on the market these days. Here I am attempting to buy MSR 2000 Gold fast fit lamps, and attempting to get their specs at the same time, this as with little biglight lamps and worse yet the upgrade to the biglight lamp specs and pricing at the same time. Or as I stated in E-Mail today, these HES lights on X tour just left the shop Friday - the day I took off theoretically without any spares. I kind of know this because I have this lamp/fixture set of sheets for new fixtures out on the tour, yet the only spare for them is currently in my hand. Would it like a spare lamp for the lights?

    Getting to the point that I don’t have room to store all the moving light lamps I have to stock. This Chroma Q fixture takes a HMI 575w/SEL, but the VL 1KA will only take a MSR 575HR. Same lamp, one ballast due to two volts difference won’t play nice with a much easier to get and cheaper lamp until it’s re-designed and it will no doubt be. This beyond Phillips being back ordered and more expensive on this and many lamps. In the mean time I now have like twenty to forty of each brand added to room to store them I didn’t have in the first place. Used to store a few of each for resale purposes to high school follow spots, than the lamp is suddenly popular again and I have to bulk up and store them. Hmm, Phillips boxes are the worst. They just seem to keep growing in size and don’t store the lamp any better, just get larger.

    Almost a real fan of the Mac 250 LED in that it don’t take spare lamps other than in some way it means the end to my corner of job security.
     
  16. Daveslights

    Daveslights Member

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    ok, last time I'll bother you on this topic!

    Can I use 7' pipe in a 25lb base with two Technobeams on a 4' cross pipe clamped to the verticle pipe?
     
  17. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Can you, and should you, are two very different things. Personally, I wouldn't. Technobeams weigh 35 lbs, so that's 70 lbs, 7 ft. above the ground, with only 25 lbs. as ballast.

    I would use a 50 lb. boom base with 7' x 1 1/2" Schedule 40 black iron pipe, a rigid cheeseborough, and 4' x 1 1/2" Sched 40 BIP crossbar; but keep the Technobeams near the vertical pipe. If the boom was not next to a wall, or in a place where it could be run in to/knocked over, I would put 100 lbs. of sandbags on the base.

    Disclaimer: Neither the author nor ControlBooth shall be held responsible for any and all mishaps. The Master Electrician is solely responsible for rigging all lighting equipment in a safe and secure manner. Minimize all lighting positions' footprint as much as possible without compromising safety.
     
  18. Daveslights

    Daveslights Member

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    Thanks, I meant "should I"!

    Would an Applied XL 11 crank lift, be a better option?
     
  19. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Yes, the Applied Electronics L-11 Lift should certainly be safer, although a larger footprint.
     
  20. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    Do you have the ability to Lag Screw the base to the floor? That would probably give you the stability you need.

    Disclaimer (borrowed from Derek): Neither the author nor ControlBooth shall be held responsible for any and all mishaps. The Master Electrician is solely responsible for rigging all lighting equipment in a safe and secure manner. Minimize all lighting positions' footprint as much as possible without compromising safety.
     

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