Automated Fixtures Moving Heads for a High school - Let's do this the right way

[Anvilx]

Nope, not another thread about what sort of elation or Chinese department store brand moving head a high school should buy. No, I want real heads and have the funds to back it up. Lets set the budget at about $150K but its flexible. I am interested in at least ten lights total. Probably want a 2:3 ratio of spots to washes if not a 1:1. All CMY, all greater than or equal to 575W, must be robust and easy to service, ect.. Standard proscenium theater with a house of 600-700 people,

Here are my initial thoughts:

4-6 for front of house something especially bright (I had a consultant recommend a Varilite 3500 spot but I am think along the lines of an HES Intellaspot XT-1 or a Varilight 2500 [I think the throw is only like 35' max])

4-6 washes for on stage something versatile (like an HES studio color 575w mustn't be to bright as I want to use it in a black box as well)

2-4 spots for on stage again versatility (like a HES studio spot 575W, mustn't be to bright as I want to use it in a black box as well)

Did I mention it's for a new facility? Oh and don't give me any of that Gafftaper Method stuff. I have a separate budget for conventionals.

Now obviously the High End 575W stuff isn't for sale in the US anymore. So any suggestions for alternatives are welcome.

 

[skienblack]

2-4 spots for on stage again versatility (like a HES studio color 575W, mustn't be to bright as I want to use it in a black box as well)

....

Now obviously the High End 575W stuff isn't for sale in the US anymore. So any suggestions for alternatives are welcome.

Why would you use additional Studio Colors for your spot fixtures? Studio Spots work well in that application. We have some 250 watt spots in our black box and they're plenty bright for a ~150 person space.

Sorry to sidetrack here but how come HES 575 units are no longer available in the US?

 

[Anvilx]

I wouldn't, but that what you get when you ctr c, ctr v, blindly...

 

[metti]

Personally, for the FOH spots, I would want framing shutters and a tungsten source since I think that looks much better when blended with an (I'm assuming) S4 rig. I have rented VL1100 TSD230 spots on several occasions for this application and I would do it again. They aren't the brightest on the market but at 1kw they would be great if your throw is less than 50', which it sounds like it is. If an arc source is preferred, I would go with the Clay Paky Alpha Profile 700 or 1200 or the arc version of the VL1100, still with framing shutters.

For the washes, I really like the Studio Color but if that is unavailable, the Clay Paky Alpha Wash 575 or 700, Martin MAC700 Wash, and, my personal favorites, the MAC TW1 and VL550D are all viable options. Obviously, the later two are much brighter and larger than the Studio Color but I would say that the MAC700 Wash and Alpha Wash 575/700 are all comparably sized and I have used both the MAC700 Wash and the Alpha Wash 700 in a blackbox with favorable results.

For the spots, I would look at the MAC700 Profile or the Alpha Spot 575 HPE or 700 HPE.

As you can probably tell, I am a pretty big Clay Paky fan. What, I think, makes some of their models particularly well suited to your requirements is how unparalleled a job they do at cramming very bright and well featured fixtures into extremely compact and relatively light weight packages. For example, the Alpha Profile 700 is an extremely bright fixture with framing shutters, an iris, 9-55 zoom, CMY, color wheel, variable CTO, and all the normal gobo/prism stuff but it still the same size and substantially less weight than a MAC575 which is much less bright and lacking most of the Clay Paky's functionality. IMHO, the only downside to Clay Paky's line is that they are way more expensive than Martin's stuff and, in some cases, Vari-Lite's stuff. The other issue is that they don't have as extensive a US dealer network as one might like but, in my experience, the folks over at PRG Distribution do a really good job of supporting customers before, during, and after the purchase.

 

[soundlight]

For the front of house fixtures, I would seriously look at those VL3500 spots that your consultant recommended. Phenomenal fixtures, not many issues over time, and while the shutters aren't as fast as a Clay Paky, they get the job done right. The zoom, shuttering capabilities and excellent stock gobo selection are all good things for theatrical use. With their impressive zoom, you could do a front gobo wash of any decent sized stage with 4 fixtures. I would not recommend the VL1000/1100 series because everything on those fixtures is slower, your zoom with a gobo in focus is only out to 36 degrees, and the color mixing is notoriously...interesting on the tungsten units. As far as the VL3500 spot matching your tungsten fixtures, the VL3000/3500 series has a phenomenal CTO wheel in it, which does not simply offer a CTO filter, but a full gradient range of CTO just like your CMY filters. The CTO on a VL3000 series fixture makes that of a MAC2K look yellow because of how beautifully tungsten it is.

For your washes, VL2500 washes. Great little fixtures, super light weight for their output, and they're fast and quiet. The Studio Color doesn't have zoom, which is why I wouldn't consider it for this application. A linear zoom is one thing that I really think that a wash mover should have for theatrical use so that it can be used for specials and general washes.

And for your other spot units, VL2500 spots. Again, great little fixtures, super light weight for their output, fast and quiet. Also, great theatrical gobo selection and true snap transitions between gobos and colors. Would work just fine in a blackbox.

One good thing about keeping it all Vari*Lite - you have the same color mixing system all around. This comes in to play when you're making color palettes, and you want to make the fixtures on stage be the same color as FOH or vice versa, you can just use your console to copy the color from the FOH fixtures to the stage fixtures or vice versa.

You'll notice that I recommended fixtures that were above the output of the fixtures that you were thinking of. There are two reasons for this: 1) Saturated colors. Especially if you use gobos with a decent amount of color in them. With any fixture, especially colormixing fixtures, output decreases significantly when you are using a saturated color. 2) Zoom. Inevitably, you will use these fixtures for washes of the stage - probably gobo washes with the spots, but also color washes with your wash fixtures. When you use the zoom range of the VLs (which yes, do have incredible optical efficiency even at wide zoom ranges), you loose a bit of output. So given my personal experience with the VL3000 series and VL2500 series, I think that you should up your outputs slightly.

Another argument for the all Vari*Lite rig is that so many regional rental houses would be able to rent you a fixture in a pinch if one of your fixtures went down, or if there was a show where you wanted 2 more fixtures over the stage, let's say. You would easily be able to rent a VL2500 spot, which is a very popular fixture with many rental houses. Aside from having designed with the VL series of fixtures, I work with them on a day-to-day basis as a fixture testing/maintenance tech, so I know them inside and out fairly well. I also work with MAC2Ks, MAC700s (decent fixture, but I'd still go with the VL2500 for theater), Studio Spots and Studio Colors.

 

[techno89]

I'm with everyone else on the VL3500's for FOH.

You can still easily buy studio spot's from usedlighting.com and they also have had a 4wall certified listing for studio colors for quite a while.

High End Studio Color 575 | Used Lighting - Used Stage & Theatrical Lighting Equipment, LED, Trussing

9 left at $1,495 a light

 

[Anvilx]

The facility is in Austin so highend is located in town and so is light parts so I don't think getting service I going to be hard regardless of what I get. Also I do know a clay Paige dealer, so supply isn't an issue. The problem I have with the clay pang stuff is that it doesn't seem that reliable. I rented a rig of 10 alpha spot 575 hpe last fall and 3 of them broke. Two of them required the software to be reloaded, they didn't take the patch and had to be sent out for repair. The other one just blew a balast. There decent, when they work but they have some sort of Italian mojo that only works some times. Don't get me wrong when they work they are great, in fact I am rentting 3 more for a show next month, but the price I'm getting them for helps.

Sent from my HTC Liberty

 

[metti]

You can still easily buy studio spot's from usedlighting.com and they also have had a 4wall certified listing for studio colors for quite a while.

I won't speak for the OP, but most schools can't purchase used equipment. Also, while the HES stuff is generally pretty reliable, I have seen some reliability issues with the older Studio 575 units so I would be wary of purchasing them used, especially at such a low price.

I still stand by my Clay Paky recommendation for FOH. The Alpha Profile 1200 is vastly a superior light to the VL3500. It is brighter and, unlike the VL3500, has frost, a prism with variable rotation, a much more flexible framing shutter design, an animation wheel, and it is a little bit lighter and smaller. It can also be run on a 120V which can save money on power distro and/or installation.

For the smaller fixtures, I think that being able to readily rent extras is probably more important and so the VL2500 stuff is probably a good bet although I still think the Clay Paky equivalents would perform better.

 

[soundlight]

I still stand by my Clay Paky recommendation for FOH. The Alpha Profile 1200 is vastly a superior light to the VL3500. It is brighter and, unlike the VL3500, has frost, a prism with variable rotation, a much more flexible framing shutter design, an animation wheel, and it is a little bit lighter and smaller. It can also be run on a 120V which can save money on power distro and/or installation.

For the smaller fixtures, I think that being able to readily rent extras is probably more important and so the VL2500 stuff is probably a good bet although I still think the Clay Paky equivalents would perform better.

I have never actually used any Clay Paky fixtures myself, although I have been wanting to use some of their Profile units with the advanced framing system for years. However, I have heard enough stories of Clay Paky stuff just not performing (such as the story here from the OP) that I just don't think it's worth it for a long-term installation where the venue will be in charge of getting the fixtures serviced. But as far as the specs go, if they worked all the time, you just can't knock Clay Paky stuff. On paper, the Alpha 700 range looks like the dream as far as moving heads in my book, but the lack of ability to rent extras and the service track record just doesn't do it for me.

Also, another point for the VLs - Vari*Lite is right up in Dallas, 4ish hours away from the OP, which could be beneficial in the case of the lights needing service.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

I'll get on the bandwagon for VL3500s for FOH, you can't go wrong with those. 2500s should be cool for you spots, but I am going to take a different stance for your washs, Vari*Lite VLX's, better colors than you could get from an arc or Halo fixture, no lamps and a nice zoom to go with. You should get a demo of it to check it out.

 

[soundlight]

I'll get on the bandwagon for VL3500s for FOH, you can't go wrong with those. 2500s should be cool for you spots, but I am going to take a different stance for your washs, Vari*Lite VLX's, better colors than you could get from an arc or Halo fixture, no lamps and a nice zoom to go with. You should get a demo of it to check it out.

The reason that I didn't recommend VLXs for the washes is that the VLXs can't go nearly as narrow as the 2500 washes. 2500 wash narrow field angle - 14 degrees. VLX narrow field angle - 22 degrees. For theatrical wash specials, that can make all the difference.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

The reason that I didn't recommend VLXs for the washes is that the VLXs can't go nearly as narrow as the 2500 washes. 2500 wash narrow field angle - 14 degrees. VLX narrow field angle - 22 degrees. For theatrical wash specials, that can make all the difference.

Well, I think if you want a spot that small you should be using a frosted spot over a wash.

 

[Tex]

Now obviously the High End 575W stuff isn't for sale in the US anymore.

I hadn't heard this so I went searching. The Barco and High End sites still list the SS575 Zoom and the SC575 CMY as available products and a Google search shows some new ones for sale in the US, so I'm confused...

 

[erosing]

I love the Studio Spot and Color lines. If I were to go out and buy something tomorrow, it'd be a hard sell not to go with them unless I got a killer deal on some VL 1Ks.

That said, the VL 2.5K are pretty nice as well.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Just want to add that I've had a couples years experience using two Robe 700 E AT spots at my University. With CMY, CTO and a respectable zoom range, they're pretty decent theatrical fixtures. Even programming them on an Express I've still been able to get them to do some nice effects. Robe is worth looking it.

 

[porkchop]

I'm going to back up the Clay Paky recommendation but with a few things to keep in mind. I have a rig of ~60 1200 spots/washes and 10 575 washes that we tour all around the world. I think the ruggedness that these lights have shown on tour make them a good candidate for educational theatre. These things get banged around in there cases, pan/tilt locks get left on, plastic covers get cracked, double stacks of flight cases fall over, road cases run into the lights when they're hung, and still they work. Students should realize what they are working with and should respect that, but in the case that something happens to the lights the Paky's have proven to be able to take that abuse and keep on ticking.

Now a couple of the drawbacks that you need to keep in mind while comparing the Clay Paky Alpha line to other lights. The 575's where one of the original lights in the line and it shows, it's hard to get to everything in the light, and even harder to put it back together without breaking some of the glass, even the side covers can be a pain. To be honest I really dislike the 575's and I'm not the least bit surprised you had a bad experience with them. I do like the 1200 series but they have three lasting issues that you would want to think about before buying them:
The washes burn dimmer blades at an accelerated rate, we put ~1500 hours on ~30 1200 washes and go through at least 50 dimmer blades a year, spots don't do this and Clay Paky doesn't have a reason why.
The washes will randomly switch back to default option settings, usually this happens at power up when it is rather cold and/or humid. I've only seen a light do it once after power up. It's easy to reset the options to what you like, but you have to get up to the light to do that.
Our rig is now in it's 4th year and we are burning igniter wires on all our 1200 units, granted this is 6000 hours into their lifetime, but it is every unit.

Overall my understanding is that even after these issues the Clay Paky's are cheaper to maintain and more reliable than the Macs that the company owns. FWIT the HES equipment that the company owns are so expensive to maintain that they are completely phasing them out of the inventory.

 

[mstaylor]

I talked to another that tours a Clay Paky rig and he thought they were easier to work on than Martins. I have no idea, just passing on what the guy that works with them every day.

 

[highschooltech]

+1 for the Clay Paky Alpha line. The 1200 spot are really nice fixtures with a much better feature set than the VL3500s. For washes the VL2500 washs are good so are the Mac 700 washs. For the overstage spots I'd pick either the Clay Paky 575 or 700 spots. The Mac 700 spot is a good solid light too in the 700 watt range. On a side note, for the black box space you could look into the Clay Paky 300 watt spot and wash which are both amazing little fixtures and are rock solid. Overall, the couple of times I've used Clay Paky lights they've been great and from talking to others they are easy to maintain in the rare event that something does go wrong with them.

Another side note, avoid the VL1000 like the plague. A venue I've done some work for has 100+ and they hate them with a passion from a maintenance and reliability standpoint. I can personally attest to their tendency to misbehave during shows as during a production I did I had 9 of them in the rig. Three of them constantly gave me problems with not going where they were supposed to even after being reset. One light had to be replaced because in the words of the ASM "it was making washing machine noises" as it proceeded to fry its pan motors during a show. At the same time the 10 VL3500s gave me no issues while one of the Mac 2k Washs (out of 12) developed a fan issue which was easily replaced.

 

[GoldPhoenix]

I'm not a fan of the VL1000....

and yes Clay Paky over martin. I've never had a problem with a clay paky;though i wish i could say the same for a martin...

Anvilx- Good Luck with the whole process! Would you happen to know how the sound design coming along for this location?

~Allan