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my first time(installation)

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by JustinPBrunei, Oct 16, 2007.

  1. JustinPBrunei

    JustinPBrunei Member

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    Hi all,

    ok, as I do mostly board ops and moving light programmer. I really have no experience in drawing installation at all. So I've got some question and please give me some ideas.

    I don't have the actual plot drawn yet. But the place is actually a multi purpose hall, very small. Stage is around 8.2m weight, 6 meter height, 7meter depth. It is it for drama occasionally. Since it is a multi purpose hall, well you know. ~~

    the type of fixture in my mind -
    conventional -
    S4 leko zoom and 26,36 degree(with few gobo holder)
    S4 parnel
    Apollo Right Arm for S4

    intelligent -
    Alpha spot HPE 575
    Alpha wash 575

    Dimmer/control -
    ETC sensor
    dmx splitter(any recommandation)
    dmx merger(any recommandation)
    Chamsys MQ/with wing
    wireless network dmx(any recommandation)' the place is small '

    smoke/hazer -
    I use jem for smoke and DF-50 oil base for hazer.
    I think jem is fine but as for DF-50 is quite loud is smaller place,
    any recommandation on other product yet can still produce similiar quality?

    Gobo/Filter -
    no idea on this one

    So, what filter is mostly use for drama?
    Or maybe I should include a colour scroller too, but they'r noisy yet more worst in small area.

    For gobos, what is preferable?. for the general requirement for drama?.
    --------------------
    whatelse do I need?
    --------------------

    If you happen to have a sample plot that you'r willing to share, so I can have a better understanding of things around.
     
  2. JustinPBrunei

    JustinPBrunei Member

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    one more -
    If we'r to to present the plot or a visualize image?
    how can we prevent them from copying?
    Should I just present the list and the images and kept the drawing until they comfirm?
     
  3. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Ok, here's basic colors in 3 paragraphs...

    You can't go wrong with a mix of Roscolux 02 Bastard Amber (warm) and Roscolux 60 No color Blue (cool). If the Amber is too warm then go with Roscolux 06 No Color Straw. Finnally use Roscolux 99 Chocolate for a neutral... it's not as brown as it looks. This combination won't win you any awards on Broadway for creativity but it's fool proof and looks good for dramatic washes every time.

    If you want the show to have a lighter more humorous feel switch to a mix of Roscolux 33 no color pink (warm), 51 surprise pink (neutral), and 60 no color blue (cool). Again a basic combination that always looks good but feels less dramatic and more fun than the amber/straw wash.

    As you develop your design skills start adding in slightly darker versions of the same colors for side, back and down light (leaving the paler colors out front). As you get a better feel for color mixing then you'll find you can use the deeper colors from the front as well.


    Probably the top hazer out there right now is the Look Solutions "Unique Hazer 2".

    Scrollers... do you NEED them? If not don't use them, they can be loud and distracting depending on the size of the theater.

    Gobos? It all depends on the show. Generally my rule is no gobos unless there is something in the script or set that really needs them... again the more advanced your skills the more ways you find to use gobos for texture and interest in ways that are subtle but not distracting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2007
    jmac and (deleted member) like this.
  4. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    Are you doing a temporary install for a show, or a permanent install for a facility?
     
  5. JustinPBrunei

    JustinPBrunei Member

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    it is permanent installation
     
  6. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    OH... hold on, permanent installation... ignore a lot of what I said. I was thinking you were talking about just a single play performance. Tell us more about the purpose of the installation.
     
  7. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    I would look into finding a local theatre consultant to work with. We can give you good ideas, but you should be able to find a local company whose business is helping design systems for theatres. They also can probably set you up with the right people to get the right prices. Also, talking to someone local gives you the opportunity to show them the space so that they reall yunderstand what you need for what you are trying to do.
     
  8. JustinPBrunei

    JustinPBrunei Member

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    the reason is the system is old and need lighting upgrade. A full change.
    previous there's i think 9 more or cyc on the bars. and selecon by the front of house and front of stage.
    As I've said the place is pretty small, a multi purpose hall. It looks like a rectangle box with one side end as stage. so there's not much to worry about for multiple viewing angles.

    Well, believe it, there's none that are good with installation locally.
    I'm push into this which also means I have to do it no matter what. ~~~
     
  9. sound_nerd

    sound_nerd Active Member

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    To produce similar effect to the DF50 with less noise, try Swefog Ultimate 3000. The compressor section is removable and can be extended with an air hose to put in a different room backstage, keeping the noise floor on stage low. The pump/tank unit without the compressor makes little to no noise itself when running.
     
  10. JustinPBrunei

    JustinPBrunei Member

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    is there any LED strip that can output a good amber?
     
  11. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    Yes: Selador.
    www.selador.net
    7-color LED mixing. The only way to go for LED striplighting.
     
  12. Kelite

    Kelite Apollo Staff Premium Member

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    <So, what filter is mostly use for drama?
    Or maybe I should include a colour scroller too, but they'r noisy yet more worst in small area.>

    The comparison of full sized truck versus compact car for MPG is a similar comparison. Not all scrollers are noisy, just ask someone who has used the Smart Color-

    Not self-promoting, but an honost observation.
     
  13. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    I'l back you up on that Keith. The Apollo SmartColor scrollers are really nice. I use them in front of house positions all the time, and have never had complaints, even from our sound department. Plus, compared to some of the other scrollers in that price range (which I own some of) the SmartColors are far superior. Everything from noise to loading gel strings is better.

    BTW, Keith, I told Rich Dale to say hi to you for me, he visited my theatre last week.
     
  14. Kelite

    Kelite Apollo Staff Premium Member

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    <BTW, Keith, I told Rich Dale to say hi to you for me, he visited my theatre last week.>

    Nice- I'm glad you had time to show him around! We are very grateful for our outside reps that spend their lives visiting Apollo dealers and the venues they care for.

    Thanks for your comments regarding your success and satisfaction with the Smart Color scrollers. We like 'em too!
     
  15. Logos

    Logos Well-Known Member

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    Keith: Is there anywhere in Oceania where I can buy your colour/color scrollers. I just want 4 to fit Par 56 cans.
     
  16. Ford

    Ford Sr Product Manager, Chauvet Professional

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    This is a really wide open question.

    ETC Sensor racks are fine. There are cheaper solutions, but you get what you pay for. I agree with the Unique Hazer 2. It's a good, quiet, easy to maintain unit.

    Zooms are probably a decent choice. Just remember, what you gain in flexibility, you lose in time spent making all of your lights look the same. In my children's school, they have 8 S-4 pars and 4 S-4 Zooms, as the front light for a similar sized stage. This is enough for a Chorus Concert, but I need to supplement it considerably for a play.

    If there are going to be plays, I'd suggest a minimum of 12 pars (2 color, 6 light washes) and 6 Leko's in the front of house, 12 Parnells or 6" fresnels (again 2 color, six areas of top) and another 4 or 6 50deg S-4s (for Gobos/ toplight specials) for over the stage, and 3 (or 6 if you want a ground row) 6' Zipstrips for your cyc/backdrop.

    By staying with the S-4 units for your conventionals (except for cyc), you'll make lamp ordering and replacement easier.

    For movers...You say you're a moving light programmer, so I assume that you know what you want...but you may want to consider something a little more quiet for the movers. It's a very small space. You may look into the Tungsten lamp fixtures, or the S-4 Revolution. Keep in mind that a 575w Arc source is going to be BRIGHT in a space that small, and you'll need to get the widest lens available for the short throw distance. You'll also need power drops at the hang points.

    What is going to be vital is the placement of the fixtures, especially in the front of house. Make sure that the FOH positions are:
    A.) Not too close to the stage, as you don't want the front light to be top light, and people tend to use the area on the floor in front of the stage to extend the performing space (especially if there are going to be choral risers).
    B.) Try to get a couple of permanent "Booms" in the FOH about half way back on either side the house, to provide even lighting.

    As to Gobos... a small breakup wash for over the stage (this will help give the illusion of movement even in a small space), and some generally useful window patterns & clouds for the FOH might be a good place to start. This is really dependent on the shows, and really up to the designers as is color.
    So...Maybe for gobos:
    Tops
    4 @ R78129 Ripple (Small)
    4 @ R77119 Leaf Breakup (SM)
    4 @ R79014 Spring Leaves
    Front
    2 @ R77712 Cloud 2
    2 @ R77278 Alto Stratus
    2 @ R79020 Georgian Doors
    2 @ R77146 Perpendicular
    2 @ R77124 Lattice
    That would be a good starting stock.

    Color?....That's really up to the designers, but I agree that the pale ambers, blues and lavendars are a good place to start.
    I hope this helps,
    -Ford
     
  17. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    For your movers in a space that small, go with Clay Paky Alpha Spot HPE 300's. Bright enough for the short throw distance, and wide enough zoom to get decent coverage from 6 to 8 units, which would be the ideal number for such a space, as you could probably wash the whole stage with that many fixtures. The Alpha Wash 300 would also be good if you're gonna get wash fixtures. Given a relatively large budget, I'd probably go for 8 of each.

    Also, if you can afford them, get the Selador LED strips that I mentioned.

    Get 20-30 or so S4 pars or parnels for a space that size. You'll get a few overhead washes (6 lights each), and some backlight, and high sides. S4 Fixed Degree units and Zooms are a good choice, if you get 50 degree units, you can wash the whole stage with gobos from six units at that height. 36's and 26's will be good for specials and FOH units. 36 degree units are good for high sides and diagonals. You might also look

    The MagiQ is not exactly a theatrically oriented console. Think about something from Avab or ETC or Strand. Then again, if you're confident on MagiQ, and you're going to be the main programmer, it might be a good idea.
     
  18. Ford

    Ford Sr Product Manager, Chauvet Professional

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    Console chioce is a tough nut too...ETC mske very good theatrical consoles, though I havent been extremely impressed with their ML desks. The Expression 3 comes with a ML module that would make programming up to 10 movers easily accomplishable without losing the simplicity of the theatrical console (for when you're not there).
     
  19. JustinPBrunei

    JustinPBrunei Member

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    Thank you guys
    For the valuable ideas and suggestion.

    About the Alpha 300 series, I've check on this before.
    Clay Paky told me it is not ready for the market yet.

    And for the console, yes part of the reason I pick MQ-
    The flexibility, the way how the console handle fixtures
    the hall doesn't only do theatre drama type of shows.
    The console must be good with handling any type of fixtures
    from conventionals to intelligents, LED to media.
    And a good support team too.
     
  20. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    Well, if the Clay Paky 300 series (which is pretty sweet, in my opinion) isn't ready for market yet, then you should probably just go with the 575's. For automated fixture count, I'd still recommend 6 or 8 Alpha Spot HPE 575's if you can afford them, but with the zoom on the alpha wash, you probably just need 4 of those. This would, for theatrical purposes, cover the whole stage with both systems at wide zoom. If you have any dance shows come through, they may want to use the automated spots and washes at some points during the show for full color and gobo washes, with the CMY mixing and such. If you can get some high-quality scrollers (read: apollo or wybron), then it might be good to add 10 of those to the stock, so you can use them on the S4 Pars or Parnels.

    For gobos - I'd have to recommend a few GAM templates myself:
    #222 small breakup (overhead) (good general overhead breakup, looks very organic, but does not set a defined location, looks great for concerts when shot through haze from floor positions)
    #223 large breakup (front) (this is great if you want a mottled sort of front light, soft focus it)
    #709 glass brickup (overhead) (this is my all-time favorite overhead gobo, and it really, really reads well on bodies for dance pieces or for certain scenes in plays plays, this also works well for many concerts as a backlight band wash)
    #220 and #379, dense foliage and open foliage respectively (overhead or front) (good for any scenes in plays that are outside with trees, these gobos are basically the standard for trees)
    #635 construction A (overhead) (great gobo for suggesting sharp edges, harsh lines, or an industrial setting)
    #305 pointed breakup (front or overhead) (great gobo for making dances or plays look "painful", many designers' choice for this effect)
    #699 mixed squares (overhead) (great gobo for an inorganic breakup for dance pieces, also works well in some concert scenarios for a band gobo wash)
    #793 water 4 (front or overhead) (for any play that requires a water gobo)
    #267 fire (front) for any show that requires a fire gobo)
    #702 and #703 flagstone-large and flagstone-small, solely to animate the two above gobos or any others through use of a rotator. These, I've found, are the best gobos for creating animated fire, water, foliage (waving trees), and any other gobomations with rotators.

    These recommendations are based on what I've used as our "stock gobo wash systems" before for multiple designers, and they seem to like 'em.

    For rotators, if you get Apollo scrollers (which I highly recommend - silent, don't have any issues that I've found with all 11 in our stock, and rather nice stock gel strings), then get Apollo Smart Move rotators and Apollo power supplies to complete the whole package. We have all 3 of these things (smartcolor scrollers, smartmove rotators, and smartpower power supplies) where I work, and we've never had an issue, save one scroller where someone had set them to a really low speed for scrolling and I had to go reset it via the dip switches (chan 900 setting).

    For color, you're gonna need to cover theater, dance, and concert words, yes? Fun. Buy a big assortment. I'll fire off the colors that I would get for such a venue here, in Rosco numbers: R02, R05, R08, R11, R15, R16, R19, R21, R26, R27 R33, R34, R39, R44, R46, R47, R48, R51, R55, R56, R57, R60, R361, R65, R68, R74, R382, R80, R90, R94, R95, R99. Get a few sheets of each, if you've got the budget. That'll give you some standard rock washes (red, green, blue-green, blue, purple, gold, etc) with some theatrically-oriented colors in there.

    Also, for the gobo animations that I mentioned before, I'd also recommend some Apollo Crushed Dichroics for added effect. They even have one called "fire" and one called "water", so you're all set! Gam Water or Fire gobo in the standard gobo slot, and the Flagstone or Flagstone Small gobo in one side of the rotator, and an Apollo Crushed Dichroic (fire or water) in the other side!
     
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