Conventional Fixtures Need help identifying an Electro Controls ERS. #3366F ?

[derekleffew]

I recently acquired this:
,
which is a more complete fixture than one I already had (eBay purchase: $65+$30 shipping!).

It looks identical to an EC 3366:
,
The Electro Controls Archive: Lighting Fixtures
except that it features a "screw-feed focus," like the 3365 model:
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Here's a close-up of the lens focus mechanism, without the cover:
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What is the model number for my fixtures? The only sticker on the yoke says "UL Listed, 435 J, Stage Type Fixture" (in a search, another CB member stated his Parellipshere had an identical sticker, so "435 J" must be a UL number). Wait, there's another that says "Union Made, H50605424". The one on the other says "H16013844" so that might be a serial number, but if so, why are they so far apart?

A couple of observations about these fixtures.
They're ridiculously heavy, with c-clamp (says Kliegl, go figure!) about 29 pounds. It's 27" high without clamp, standing up. Speaking of standing up, the focus knob on the front prevents the fixture from standing on its colorframe holder. And speaking of the colorframe holder, it's hinged on the bottom and held closed with a "luggage catch" on top. I have to do some investigating to see how the lens train is supposed to be retained, because right now it's being held in with friction, and I've already dropped the lenses out when the gelframe door popped open unexpectedly. Until I figure that out, this fixture cannot go in the air. The other fixture seems to have its lens carriage rusted in place.
With a fixture this big, the 42" whip is a plus, but the cut sheet says "...42" extra flexible asbestos cable." My fixture has a fiberglass sleeve, so it might be a later version, or the cut sheet is wrong, or has been replaced, but it doesn't look like it.

The cut sheet for the #3366 has a date of March, 1971. This fixture uses an EGE/EGG/EGJ -type lamp mounted axially, and thus must be one of the first axial ERSs. Relamping is quite clever. Open the rear door (another luggage catch), loosen a thumb screw and the socket pulls out. Relamp, reinsert socket, and bench focus with the door open. A knob on the bottom rear of the fixture moves the lamp in and out of the reflector, providing for peak-cosine adjustment:
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However, even when tuned well, the beam emitted is not pretty by today's standards. I suspect this is primarily due to the reflector not being faceted, but instead is a true half-ellipsoid.
Interestingly, neither of my units, nor the 3-5 others at the theatre, have a top shutter. I haven't yet investigated removing/inserting these, but upon first glance, they seem difficult to remove. EDIT: Aha! The cut sheets says "The top framing shutter is removable to allow the insertion of patterns." Chances are these were removed and immediately lost forever. I wonder what kind of pattern holder it takes?


EDIT: Stupid me! I should have looked more carefully at the big red and silver sticker on the back of the unit. It's a model 3366F. The "F" denoting the screw-feed focus, of course. Or perhaps not. The F suffix may just mean framing shutters:
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Anyone have more insights into this, somewhat unusual, fixture?
Anyone else find it odd that the little Electro Controls company was innovating fixtures (with many failures and few successes) more than industry leaders Kliegl and Century-Strand during the early 1970s?

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I have always found it odd that EC was taking such risks and innovations, and as such I think many of us see them as laying a few bricks for the foundation of todays fixtures.

While EC is gone, the leaders of its day are too. Obviously Kliegl has long been dust and now Strand is out of the fixture business.

What I've REALLY always found amazing was/is how Altman can take decades old technology and still move units out the door for decades (360Q, 65Q).

 

[ship]

I got nothing.... other than I want it. If you want to ship it to me, I'll take it apart, clean and surface it and given the above is already re-wired in some way, make sure it's proper etc. (For free.) In the mean time I'll also study it and look into it futher and after say a week send it back if you won't trade something else for it (off line.)


Onto the background... all kinds of companies all thru the ages inventing things and processes - Grand Stage Lighting's fluited fixtures, to even Major making the Alzark reflector process reflectors for name brand fixtures until even 1948 - like 20 years later and as with the spun aluminum reflector was a huge step in lighting history as with the advent of say 1Kw and larger lamps. Got what I believe is an Oval beam Fresnel box spot that given it's side Rosette mount is a #55 from Kliegl. (Still searching for a box spot that has a reflector on it as an option "available" at the time) that and a "Bunchlight". On the 4.1/2" Oval beam fresnel fixture... Kliegl website has a 1956 invention of it listed, yet nothing for a 4.1/2" size and my lens is of Kopp glass. Clearly an oval beam Fresnel lens c.1956 - if Kopp was on the ball in making lenses to compete, and in theory a #55 Rosette model of a 1920's Kliegl box spot.
Sometimes it gets complex in fixture history - not that yours potentially will, and at other times as found, someone replaced parts on it in screwing up the dating of it. Got lazy in a Mole model #23 Double Side Lamp I recently worked on. Someone installed the reflector up side down and got lazy in flipping it over when the holes didn't line up. Instead of 10-32 screws, they made it work with 6-32 screws in a 60's thru 70's service call to the fixture. Totally screwed up my dating of the fixture process for a while given more modern fasteners in use.

Want your fixture, but beyond that if you want a free service call to it and me to look into it further, send it my way for study and further looking at in debth.

 

[mstaylor]

I don't know the exact number but you seem to have found that. I have a bunch of them. At one times we had six theatres filled with them. I can look at mine tomorrow to see how the lense works. I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

[311demon]

i have 7 of these beauties at my house. for the biggest bulkiest pars i have ever lugged around over the years they are super bright! btw mine says "F" also. i dunno what it denotes, but i like acquiring these lights for cheap if anyone can ship

 

[ship]

Says 12x12 also but it’s not a 12" lens which is interesting. What’s the other red stickers on the rear of the fixtures say?

Given what doccuments I have and the Kliegl website, think I have an approximate dating for this fixture. This lens is designed about a EGG halogen lamp on axis with the reflector - axial fixture, yet is using a halogen upgrade lamp to the say 500T14/8 incandescent lamp. 1964 was a big year for Kliegl, and probably for most lighting companies to catch up. That’s when the RSC based halogen lamp got done in making Fresnel and small Leko halogen. Given this concept of the 3.1/8" RSC (R-7s) lamp invention of 1964 for halogen/quartz fixtures for use on stage, that’s the cutoff date for any halogen fixtures that would be using a halogen upgrade lamp that’s medium pre-focus (P-28s) as per older incandescent like T-28 lamp globes for radial size. Still sold the radial type fixture years after, but not modern technology.

This really a legendary “Parellisphere” fixture?
On dating it, the halogen/quartz EGG lamp this fixture was invented around, could not have been before the Kliegl catalogue 1965 catalogue in a RSC based double ended first halogen lamp. After that, between say 1965 and 1971 is the invention of the upgrade incandescent lamp upgrades to the T-type incancascent lamps. This fixture was invented somewhere between 1965 and 1971. The “Little Stage Lighting Catalogue - c.1962 adds to this info but don’t help on the fixture. Notes New “High-Tensity” light output, but this could be by way of the 750w incandescent lamp invention over that of the 500w version. Given the fixtures show and really cool they are... probably just the 750w innovation.

 

[ship]

Further noting of the fixture:

So I just finished working on Drew’s (now given to me) 3366F that I believe is a 6x12 version based on what the red sticker on it’s rear says. Sticker’s dented at the model number but does say 3..... x12 where it should and looks like what’s in the Photometrics Handbook.

I have further review of it - though not the bench focus - the EGG lamp I brought home to bench focus with was broken at the neck like the lamp it was shipped with. Fine by me, I’ll let one of my guys tinker with the bench focus on Monday. They find bench focus more enjoyable than I do. Very interesting ball mount bench focus pivot - never seen something like that before in use, also very interesting how you can completely remove the base by way of thumb screw so as to change the lamp. A little more cumbersome though in if not re-seated correctly, it will throw off your bench focus. This much less if finger tight and the fixture gets bumped.

The various fasteners etc. in use help to establish the say approximate date of the fixture - before the EHG came to the market, but after the EGE. Would be able to refine this further, but Altman doesn’t publish details about when the 360Q using the EGE came to the market. Still thinking between say 1965 and 1971 for date based on the Kliegl catalogues.

One of the most unusual but also difficult fixtures I have ever worked on. Interesting design and it’s front mount lens train knob differs from the one in the Photometrics Handbook. Probably an earlier version where the adjustment knob is at the front of the fixture by way of screw feed - thus the fixture won’t stand up properly on it’s gel frame as the norm.

Lens train is somewhat easily changeable as long as you can get to the hidden retainer knob. Fascinating concept in how to do such a thing. It would seem this fixture is very innovative but not that well thought out in similar ways. Could also be an 8" Leko seemingly by way of changing a few parts.

Clutch break is innovative but sucks in actual gripping to hold the off balance fixture.
Shutters are interesting given screws to retain them from falling out. Makes it easy to remove the shutters - this once you remove the phillips sheet metal screws retaining the shutters. Problem with removing the screws is you have to get a screw driver in to remove them. Whole assembly comes apart from the rear of the fixture - holder for the lens train is in the way of getting a good angle with a Phillips Screwdriver thus the whole thing needs to come apart somehow before you can extract the retaining screws for the shutters that are made to be removed. Impossible to get the lens train inner assembly out of the fixture unless slid thru the rear of the fixture.

Simple enough on replacement of them to use hex head sheet metal screws instead that can be removed. Shutters needed a re-surfacing and dry coat thus the removal.

Curious about the fixture is the use of some rivets with plates in odd places without a purpose I can find, and others used to replace mounting screws. I think them later application, there is a few I don’t see the purpose of. These rivets prevented an easier taking apart of the fixture. Something odd went on with the fixture in making it not worth fully taking apart so as to clean the reflector. Did I mention that you have to slide all workings out the rear of the fixture for service? Complete tear down and given the knobs on the shutters didn’t easily un-screw, I didn’t want to chance them.

Interesting and innovative fixture, fascinating but even a 360 series radial Altman you can clean the reflector on. Asbestos abatement also had to be done.

End results, this is a legend and I can see many innovations about it. Would hate to have them in active stock, but I’m sure optically it is very good - very interesting double slide to both lens train and lamp in the reflector. Fascinating fixture and curious, great and legendary addition to the collection - thanks. I can see a lot of old PC fixture in it’s roots mixed with later technology and concepts. Innovative but not persay user friendly in doing so. Cord grip itself is in a bad spot for full swivel. Interesting it was a grounded fixture even if asbestos wired.

Tinned base didn’t survive removal unfortunately. Bryant base and not that old in style. Was able to suck the solder off the wires and screw terminals well enough, but the mounting screws broke off in a non-removable way. Standardized lampholder on the other hand made for an easy replacement. New lampholders are slightly larger in O.D. but still work with it. Bench focus screws rub on the porcelain of the lampholder a bit, but do mount sufficiently.

 

[mstaylor]

Ship:
I'm not sure but the light I am sending you is missing the shutters. I will check and see if I have extras but I had a rigger that kept pilfering them to pull ceiling tiles.

 

[ship]

Fairly easy to reproduce in shutter type, Can do that part. Top shutter was easily removable.

But if case of the same light, I have one for my museum already and no need to send another, thanks. Contact me off line and I'll send you e-mail to the curiator from another place that will have contacts to others also important fixture to show.

 

[mstaylor]

If what you have is the pictured instrument in the OP then that is a fixed optic light. It is either a 6x9 or 6x12. The paraelipsphere I have is adjustable from a 6x9 to a 6x16.

 

[derekleffew]

...This really a legendary "Parellisphere" fixture? ...

No, it isn't a Parellisphere. It predates it by at least four years. See http://electrocontrolsarchive.blogspot.com/2010/02/lighting-fixtures.html .

...Would be able to refine this further, but Altman doesn't publish details about when the 360Q using the EGE came to the market. Still thinking between say 1965 and 1971 for date based on the Kliegl catalogues. ...

From the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/question-day/19232-exact-date-altman-360q-introduction.html we learned that Altman introduced the 360Q in 1974, using the EHD/EHG, not the EGE. Perhaps you're thinking of the 3300.pdf? However, Century-Strand and EC were using the EGE/EGG/EGJ in an axial orientation before that. The cut sheets cited above, referencing fixtures on either side of this one, #3365 and #3366, are dated 1970-1971. I restate my hypothesis that this may have been one of the first axial-mount ERS fixtures. (Kliegl never did get around to making one--their 1500 series was imported from CCT.)

EDIT: Or perhaps this was the first axial ERS.

Century 1223 (not listed in Photometrics Handbook, but appears to be identical to Century Strand 2457). Since the label makes no mention of Strand, we know it had to have been before Strand bought Century in 1969.

 

[ship]

Wow! another website to pull from, date and search fixtures from,thanks. I will invistigate this website a lot in learning from it as with the old catalogues sent. Thanks on the date for the Altman fixtures, the info didn't take to memory for me. Given I have all versions shown and am about to acquire a pre-360 series, what are their four dates so I can more accurately date my own?

Pre-360 based off the ?Kliegl or Century Leko of the early 60's. Radial 360 fixture, Axial brown axial fixture, black axial than the clutch break version. Get nothing from Altman on dating.

As with the rough dating above..hard to date the older stuff other than approximating based on what I can fid.

On the mystery of the halogen upgrade lamp is the key to this, perhaps the lamp manufacturers should be futher contacted - or anyone have a catalogue from between 1962 and 71'?

On the question of ship of the line type axial mount Lekos, very possibly, but that's given in 1964 Kliegl had a 3.1/2" Leko using a dual ended lamp in use in 1964 and would be considered axial. Still though for arguement sake, this very possibly was the first true axial mount fixture - even if using a radial mount upgrade lamp that is the main question in dating.