New Theater

[Cadmium6855]

Hey guys so my school is building a new performing arts center (I think 600 seats with a 150 seat black box) I am not sure of all the specs yet, but I am trying to get more info, but the school is... protective, even to me. Anyway it will probably not be done until after I graduate but I am going to school for lights and sound, ect. I plan on coming back and running the place... no, they haven't thought about who is going to run it. So as were building it, I am asking more and more about what is going inside tech wise.

I hear we are going to go completely ethernet, so now I wanna ask you guys what you think should be in there, mostly lighting wise, but sound as well if you would like.

I want to get a GrandMA2 full-size and an allen and heath board. basically I just want to know how many of what type of light we should shoot around, I think ETC is doing all the dimmers and bringing in most of the lights, but I would just like your guys opinions.

 

[LightingTechie]

Wow! Your school will actually pay about £50,000 ($70,000) for a lighting console?
Anyway, I personally would stay with DMX and not go down the Ethernet route yet, but I would get a console that supports Ethernet to be 'future-proof'

 

[Cadmium6855]

As of now, its now up to me, we are getting all new equipment, I obviously need to talk to the principle again, and we are using money from a measure passed by the people. It is like 50 million dollars. So... I don't think they will have a problem with a console like that, we might go with an ETC but I want a grandMA.

 

[LightingTechie]

Good choice. We have a GrandMA Full-size down here. I find that when you first start using it, it takes time to get used to it but when you've used it for a couple of days, it's great!

 

[Cadmium6855]

Ya, at this point any console will be new, as of now we have a smartfade for our tiny theater, we also just bought some intelligent lights so I need a board that can run both aka the grandMA.

 

[MisterTim]

If you're getting a GrandMA2 full-size for lighting, then you'd better get something better than 'an allen and heath board.' =]

Also, don't plan on coming back and running the place. When I was in high school, that's exactly what I wanted to do when I graduated. Now I'm in college, 10 miles away from my high school, and the LAST thing I want to do is go back and run my high school theater. Now maybe that's just because my theater didn't have a PM5D like I was running last concert here at college, but seriously, once you're in college, you will not want to go back.

Also also, you talk as though you have a say in what goes into the theater. Do you seriously have power over purchasing, or are you just dreaming?

No matter what happens, make sure they run extra Cat5/6 all over the place. Preferably STP, if possible. It can be used for anything, and it's so useful to have extra pairs hanging around whenever you want to run a cable.

 

[shiben]

If you're getting a GrandMA2 full-size for lighting, then you'd better get something better than 'an allen and heath board.' =]

+1.

As of now, its now up to me, we are getting all new equipment, I obviously need to talk to the principle again, and we are using money from a measure passed by the people. It is like 50 million dollars. So... I don't think they will have a problem with a console like that, we might go with an ETC but I want a grandMA.

Um, I think your talking to the wrong person. Your principal wont have budgetary control of the project, thats a school board thing. I would be absolutely shocked if you had any say whatsoever. Its something to get used to. Very few of us do. Its how the industry works. Sorry.

Ya, at this point any console will be new, as of now we have a smartfade for our tiny theater, we also just bought some intelligent lights so I need a board that can run both aka the grandMA.

Your smartfade can run your MLs. Just not well. Look at the Element or Ion from ETC. Much less expensive, and more realistic for any rig you might get.

Also, don't plan on coming back and running the place. When I was in high school, that's exactly what I wanted to do when I graduated. Now I'm in college, 10 miles away from my high school, and the LAST thing I want to do is go back and run my high school theater. Now maybe that's just because my theater didn't have a PM5D like I was running last concert here at college, but seriously, once you're in college, you will not want to go back.

Seriously. Listen to this guy. Im the same way, except that I never did tech in HS. I just never want to go back except maybe to a reunion. Now, maybe you like being in charge of the situation like you sort of are now. Thats fine, thats cool. But why go back when you can go forward?

Anyway, I personally would stay with DMX and not go down the Ethernet route yet, but I would get a console that supports Ethernet to be 'future-proof'

Um, go all ethernet based. If your getting ETC dimmers and lights (if thats what you heard, its probably been decided for years now), you can get ETC NET or whatever they have. It works really well, and our 2 newest venues have it. Really nice.

Honestly, the biggest thing I can say is dont worry about going back there and working. You dont need to, and you probably wont want to. Get over your small HS job, and look forward to bigger and better opportunities.

 

[lightingguy1]

Also be sure to make sure they buy ALL ETC Stuff - dimmers and Instruments


Thats the mistake the Contracter made when they built my local PAC......

 

[Cadmium6855]

I do have power of purchasing, I just have to figure out what they want to buy and then say that my things are better, and then they buy them. Allen and Heath boards are great, but I am thinking about a midas or DiGiCo. Any suggestions on which? I figure if we are going to have an Ethernet system, we should have a digital console.

And its not just going back to run my old high schools theater productions, it may be at my old school, but I will be facilities manager and technical director of the road house we are building.

 

[DuckJordan]

I do have power of purchasing, I just have to figure out what they want to buy and then say that my things are better, and then they buy them. Allen and Heath boards are great, but I am thinking about a midas or DiGiCo. Any suggestions on which? I figure if we are going to have an Ethernet system, we should have a digital console.

And its not just going back to run my old high schools theater productions, it may be at my old school, but I will be facilities manager and technical director of the road house we are building.

It sounds to me your in the same position i was last year, although your budget seems to be bigger. WHile having the newest and greatest is cool, you'll find yourself much happier with an ion or an Eos console, ETC is great as far as customer service goes and they can run moving lights just as well. Unless your running 250+ moving lights i wouldn't suggest getting a GrandMA full just yet.

Also if you do have purchasing power, Find out your actual budget, 50 million for whatever is a bunch of crap, its more like 2 million to build the space. We just got a new building here on usd campus its a 40 million dollar building and we had to get donations for the workout equipment inside.

You'll find you wont have that kind of budget and reaching that high when you aren't a teacher, let alone if your on student council or what have you will easily get you kicked out of whatever clubs you currently reside in.

 

[MisterTim]

Allen and Heath boards are great, but I am thinking about a midas or DiGiCo. Any suggestions on which?

Personally, I would go for a Midas Pro 9, but iirc that's pushing $110k, which is probably over budget. The DiGiCo D-series boards are in the same range. Going lower would put you down to a DiGiCo SD8 or something similar, though I would consider looking at the A&H iLive system. (iFreaking hate when they iDo this to iWords)

I figure if we are going to have an Ethernet system, we should have a digital console.

Right, because that's totally the reason to buy a digital console.

 

[Les]

So, your school is building this multi-million dollar facility, and I assume they don't have a consultant? I'm sorry, and I mean no offense, but a student shouldn't be in charge of purchasing equipment that will probably have to be dealt with long after said student is gone. You can't go wrong with ETC, yes, but how are you going to decide how many of each type of fixture you're going to need? Let's be realistic -- your scope of theatrical experience is still pretty narrow.

Not sure if I would recommend a GrandMA full-size. If you can get around on it, great, but will the next group? Will anyone be around to teach it? Don't assume that you will be. There are a lot of loop holes you will need to jump through before that is even a possibility, and you're so young that your life can change just like that. You may meet the woman of your dreams and move across the state in two years. Who knows.

Are you going to use this GrandMA to control those Chauvet units?

Again, I'm really sorry. This just seems like another case of "king of the booth" syndrome. I see it all the time, and I even had it myself at one time in my life.

I'm surprised that this project doesn't appear to be going through a bid process. Generally, the facility staff doesn't get to choose exactly what they get. Gafftaper went through this a few years back. You have to use terms like "Ellipsoidals must utilize the newest generation of dichroic reflectors", "...must use HPL750 lamps..."

Generally, you can't just say "I want all ETC lights and a GrandMA console".
Just... Be careful of how you spend the taxpayers' money if this is the case. Are they buying toys or tools?

 

[Cadmium6855]

We do have consultants, and I am not alone, I am going to talk to either ETC or one of their dealers, for what they think we need, then they will come and install, if I am going with ETC I will most likely get a Eos or Congo. As for sound, I was looking into allen and heaths iLive, will look into it more. as for midas and digico those boards are ridiculously expensive and depending on the budget after buliding, well see what we can afford.

 

[MNicolai]

I do have power of purchasing, I just have to figure out what they want to buy and then say that my things are better, and then they buy them. Allen and Heath boards are great, but I am thinking about a midas or DiGiCo.

You sounds like you think you have a lot more influence than you actually do. If you have to go through hoops to figure out what they want to buy, then you don't actually have purchasing influence; you're a guy standing up expressing an opinion around people who may or may not take you at all seriously.

$50,000,000, and I bet a lot more of it is going to architectural features and less to technical aspects than you expect. If this was a professional venue not at all affiliated with a school, I'd encourage you to get all the highest quality gear that you can, but it's a school first, a theatrical venue second. Five years after the building is open, someone at a school board meeting will say something to that effect when the money pit that is a school-operated theatrical venue is losing money fixing broken equipment.

If you're school gets a $70k lighting console now, you somewhat commit them to dropping another $60k-$100k 8-15 years from now when it needs to be replaced, either because it's broken or because something bigger and better has come along. No one is going to put up a community vote on putting taxes towards a school, so the school ends up trying to find the money doing bake sales.

Aside from financial concerns, there are educational and logistical concerns. Putting a student who has never operated a lighting console before on a GrandMA2 full-size will not end well. Sure, people like yourself will go out of their way to educate themselves, but that's a rare breed. Most students just want a fun extracurricular and they won't take the initiative to learn a console like that. It's surprisingly difficult to get the average student excited about a console with five monitors in comparison to how easy it is to get someone going on something like an Express.

We do have consultants, and I am not alone, I am going to talk to either ETC or one of their dealers, for what they think we need, then they will come and install, if I am going with ETC I will most likely get a Eos or Congo. As for sound, I was looking into allen and heaths iLive, will look into it more. as for midas and digico those boards are ridiculously expensive and depending on the budget after buliding, well see what we can afford.

Typically students don't get involved talking with dealers. If you want to demo some consoles and provide personal input, go for it, but don't wait for an invitation. Most consultants won't spend their time talking to students because they've done this before and you're a thorn in their side. After the building's been open for a few years, you'll probably still be the thorn in their side because you'll have complaints and grievances about how the building was completed. Each complaint or opinion of yours is a question of their professional judgement, and they don't take kindly to that.

Some of this will come across as a personal attack on you, it's not. I've been in your situation and I've seen other students go through your position as well. Please excuse the cynicism; it's what I know to be how the system works.

 

[Cadmium6855]

I'm sure your right about most of those things... if all goes right though, the thing wont be complete until after I graduate college, then I can come back and run all of that with my house crew, seeing as it is supposed to be a road house, there has to be a professional house crew, who knows what their doing, runs, and maintains all of the equipment, that would be me. I haven't talked to anyone who knows what their doing yet, but this school loves me, I just bought over $15 grand of portable intelligent lighting for our other venue, to be placed in the PAC eventually. My point is on Monday, I have some people to talk to, and hope things go my way, i'll let you know.

 

[Les]

I'm sure your right about most of those things... if all goes right though, the thing wont be complete until after I graduate college, then I can come back and run all of that with my house crew, seeing as it is supposed to be a road house, there has to be a professional house crew, who knows what their doing, runs, and maintains all of the equipment, that would be me. I haven't talked to anyone who knows what their doing yet, but this school loves me, I just bought over $15 grand of portable intelligent lighting for our other venue, to be placed in the PAC eventually. My point is on Monday, I have some people to talk to, and hope things go my way, i'll let you know.

Man, I really admire your enthusiasm, but it sounds like you're putting all your eggs in to one basket. You are counting on and assuming that you will work for this place just because the school loves you. I guarantee it won't be this easy. If and when the position comes available, the school board will be required by law to publicly post the position and hold unbiased interviews. I promise, people will come out of the woodwork for that job, and some of them may have a college degree plus 25 years experience in the field. You WILL have competition.

Not to sound like a lighting snob, but those Chauvets will not last as long as you might hope. Will the school still love you when they're throwing thousands of dollars in to repairs, or worse, finding that Chauvet no longer will suport that fixture in the future? If you got the position, would you like to be the one to tell them in ten years that their 15k lighting system can't be repaired and has very little resell value? I mean, you could have spent the same money and got half the amount of Mac 250's which would have been a better fixture with better support. I know Chauvet took care of you recently, but what do you think will happen when the warranty runs out?


I know I sound like more of a foe than a friend... I just want you to be realistic, because you might be setting yourself up for disappointment. Again, I admire your enthusiasm, I just have my doubts that everything will fall in to place as easily as you think. Just keep your options open and don't get tunnel vision. Remember that you're very skilled, which is obvious to me, but there is always much to learn.

 

[shiben]

I know I sound like more of a foe than a friend... I just want you to be realistic, because you might be setting yourself up for disappointment. Again, I admire your enthusiasm, I just have my doubts that everything will fall in to place as easily as you think. Just keep your options open and don't get tunnel vision. Remember that you're very skilled, which is obvious to me, but there is always much to learn.

I think this is the most important thing. There is ALWAYS more to learn. Always. Im sure our flying effects expert (delbert, I believe) on here, who has years of experience, owns a company, and has flown more people than most of us have met still learns new things on a daily basis. Same with Derek, Gafftaper, Footer, and the rest. Its the nature of the industry. College will be an interesting time for you precicely because you know a lot right now. Youll get to develop your skills and get real training in them, which will make you better at what you do. The creativity which has been already shown in your designs will be channeled and sharpened by your profs, and youll have a chance to do things you never thought possible in venues a lot nicer than even the one they are building. Once you do that, I personally think you will find that you can do a lot more (and make a lot more money doing it) away from your high school, even if it does have a profesional road house. And once your designing a huge show, youll be able to spec whatever console you want, and if its big enough, you can even spec a guy to run it for you.

Another note, Cadmium. This ones as a friend. You WILL find in college that your interests change. Been here 4 years, and I started being CERTAIN that I was going to be an engineer working on dams and bridges. Then I discovered that I liked reading more than not sleeping so I could finish calculus, and switched into history, which had always facinated me. It still does, but when I started doing theatre as my major, I discovered a new way to use it. I know right now you feel like you know what you want to do, but I guarentee that in 4 years, you will have a direction thats not exactly what you think. And who knows, you might end up back at your old school, but it could be as a designer, rather than the facilities manager. Why limit yourself now?

 

[Edrick]

This sounds like something that can go sour really fast. Being in that situation and in the "post-graduation" situation I can assure you 99% of the time what you think is the case really isn't. The key word with the school, city, and state / federal government is that it's all politics. You may think you have the power to have them actually buy stuff, and that you have the ear of the people in charge. But in reality if you're a High School student or even post High School unless you officially work for the school district, city, or one of the places that this project is going out to bid you really have limited say. The Principle, Art Director, Theater Director, or any type of faculty even has limited say.

These projects are usually put out to bid and the "lowest" or "reasonable" bid proposal is selected. You may have been able to purchase gear in the past however that more than likely (maybe you can clarify) was based off of personal school funds. A project costing multi-millions goes through all sorts of approval processes, rewrites, bids, handshakes, and such that are far over your head.

Also just because your school loves you now doesn't mean that they actually will take you in once you're graduated. Trust me I'm all for having a team come in and actually run shows or teach the students how to use the gear I'm attempting it my self with my city. However if they're really going to drop 50 grand on a lighting console then they're more than likely going to hire a true professional. Neither you nor I, nor most probably any of the current high school students or now in college / just graduated from college people are near experienced enough to run a big state of the art venue.

I and the rest of us on controlbooth encourage you to go after it, but I'm just giving you a warning to not let it get over your head or you to be blinded by the process.

 

[Cadmium6855]

This sounds like something that can go sour really fast. Being in that situation and in the "post-graduation" situation I can assure you 99% of the time what you think is the case really isn't. The key word with the school, city, and state / federal government is that it's all politics. You may think you have the power to have them actually buy stuff, and that you have the ear of the people in charge. But in reality if you're a High School student or even post High School unless you officially work for the school district, city, or one of the places that this project is going out to bid you really have limited say. The Principle, Art Director, Theater Director, or any type of faculty even has limited say.

These projects are usually put out to bid and the "lowest" or "reasonable" bid proposal is selected. You may have been able to purchase gear in the past however that more than likely (maybe you can clarify) was based off of personal school funds. A project costing multi-millions goes through all sorts of approval processes, rewrites, bids, handshakes, and such that are far over your head.

Also just because your school loves you now doesn't mean that they actually will take you in once you're graduated. Trust me I'm all for having a team come in and actually run shows or teach the students how to use the gear I'm attempting it my self with my city. However if they're really going to drop 50 grand on a lighting console then they're more than likely going to hire a true professional. Neither you nor I, nor most probably any of the current high school students or now in college / just graduated from college people are near experienced enough to run a big state of the art venue.

I and the rest of us on controlbooth encourage you to go after it, but I'm just giving you a warning to not let it get over your head or you to be blinded by the process.

I understand what your saying... My friend is the school board presidents son and he also happens to be my FOH engineer, so we have more say than most. As for hiring a professional, after I graduate college is when I would come back, and then, I will be a professional. Also the district and school greatly underestimates the amount of additional personnel to run a facility like this, who will run it and maintain the equipment has not been discussed, at all. They think that the students who run technical equipment will be able to figure out how to work things, when they are running out of those types of students, this year I have 2 new partners, neither wants the job, neither is willing to learn, if this keeps up, they will be in deep doodoo when this is built.

 

[DuckJordan]

As for hiring a professional, after I graduate college is when I would come back, and then, I will be a professional.

This statement right here scares the crap out of me, I am a College student working with graduate students in the theater. Just because you have a degree does not make you a professional. I can almost guarantee that the job app will say something along the lines of "minimum 5 years experience (non educational) in running a facility". This would mean you would have to work at a venue, starting as a manual labor (which would probably last about 6 months) then you would have to move up the ranks until you were the technical director, could take anywhere from 4 - 15 years or even never.

The statement of after i graduate I'm a pro is nothing in this industry. I am planning on starting a rental company to compete with the sole entertainment provider in the area, I would not hire you to do anything more than push boxes for at least 3 months. I'm sorry this isn't a personal attack but, as a business i would want someone with more experience in charge of a large multi- million dollar facility.

Also the fact that your "friends" dad is the school board pres means nothing, that can change in a year. then what will you do?