New Theater

[shiben]

This statement right here scares the crap out of me, I am a College student working with graduate students in the theater. Just because you have a degree does not make you a professional. I can almost guarantee that the job app will say something along the lines of "minimum 5 years experience (non educational) in running a facility". This would mean you would have to work at a venue, starting as a manual labor (which would probably last about 6 months) then you would have to move up the ranks until you were the technical director, could take anywhere from 4 - 15 years or even never.

The statement of after i graduate I'm a pro is nothing in this industry. I am planning on starting a rental company to compete with the sole entertainment provider in the area, I would not hire you to do anything more than push boxes for at least 3 months. I'm sorry this isn't a personal attack but, as a business i would want someone with more experience in charge of a large multi- million dollar facility.

Also the fact that your "friends" dad is the school board pres means nothing, that can change in a year. then what will you do?

True this. Especially the school board bit. Dont they get elected every year or so?


Cadmium, if they dont have people to run this stuff, then why spec a GMA2? Wouldnt your best option be something as simple as possible? Like an element, or an Ion with enough handels to have one per dimmer, or something like that? No reason to have a GMA if its going to be wasted on those who use it. I was at a venue one time that had a Hog of some type, but my rudimentary skills (I had never used one before) were better than anyone else there, they ran shows by pushing up handels that had been patched years ago. Is that what you want to have happen? If thats the case, then go for a GMA2. If not, get something that people can figure out. Also, I cant tell you enough that you should NOT expect to work on this facility after you graduate. Dont plan on it. Just dont, get it out of your head. Its cool that you do a lot of work at your high school. However, in a previous thread you were extolling the virtues of Chauvet units, which to me shows not ignorance, but inexperience, which is fine. No one here expects you to be as competant as the big hitters here. They have years of experience (some many many years), work for large groups like disney and Cirque de Solie, or have years of experience as an employee of a major lighting company or regional theatre, or are college educators. In 10 -15 years, you can be up there too. But it just takes experience, training, and a LOT of work. You need to develop work practices, and unless you work for your IA local (and depending on where you are, even if you DO work for your IA local), you have zero experience working in a profesional enviroment, which is very different than what your doing now. Dont worry yourself about it, your still what, 15, 16 years old? We have plenty of members around that age who do lots of good work. Check out the photos for evidence of that. But then take a look at Icewolf's photos. Anywhere near the level your working at yet? If your in charge of a large expensive venue, thats what people expect. And its not a matter of having better gear. One of the best plays I have ever seen had 12 old, beat up 360s, and some old beat up PAR 64s, and a bunch of construction floods. Its about the skill and experience. Its just how it gets done. Dont now think your life is over if you move on from this idea. Your still living with your parents. Why make a life plan now?

They think that the students who run technical equipment will be able to figure out how to work things, when they are running out of those types of students, this year I have 2 new partners, neither wants the job, neither is willing to learn, if this keeps up, they will be in deep doodoo when this is built.

They are willing to learn. Why do you think they dont? Lack of motivation, lack of skill, are you training them? Do you have them doing things? Almost anyone is willing to learn when given a decent reason to, and one thing that can help is to give them tasks that require them to learn, but are at a level they can figure out. Have them start with orchestra shows. Those are hard to screw up. Then move them on to smaller concerts and/or smaller plays. Dont lord over them though, and make fun or criticize for screwing up, show how it ought be done. I get 7 people every semester who have never hung a light in their life (and some who have not even climbed a ladder), and by the end, I usually have 5 of them hanging lights pretty much on their own, with little supervision. Its all a matter of motivation and showing that they can learn these skills. See if that helps them out. What year in HS are you in anyhow? Are you considering college yet?

 

[Cadmium6855]

Ya, I guess, but the chauvet fixtures will do them well until they throw them in a closet when the PAC is built, which is what is going to happen. the GMA2 is not the best idea and we are going to go with an all ETC system with an Eos or Congo board. The current people I have do not want to learn, I know this because, many times, they have said this. The only thing I can do is next year (when i'm a senior) whoever is new, is going to need a lot of training. As for work I work for a production/ DJ company and am trying to start my own production company, because that is what I love. I am considering college, I don't really have a reason to yet, but honestly, I just want to get out of high school so I can get started in the real world already.

They are willing to learn. Why do you think they dont? Lack of motivation, lack of skill, are you training them? Do you have them doing things? Almost anyone is willing to learn when given a decent reason to, and one thing that can help is to give them tasks that require them to learn, but are at a level they can figure out. Have them start with orchestra shows. Those are hard to screw up. Then move them on to smaller concerts and/or smaller plays. Dont lord over them though, and make fun or criticize for screwing up, show how it ought be done. I get 7 people every semester who have never hung a light in their life (and some who have not even climbed a ladder), and by the end, I usually have 5 of them hanging lights pretty much on their own, with little supervision. Its all a matter of motivation and showing that they can learn these skills. See if that helps them out. What year in HS are you in anyhow? Are you considering college yet?

 

[icewolf08]

I don't have much to say beyond echoing the things that have been said. Remember that we are on your side and here to help you, we are not here to dissuade you or pick a fight.

Let me just say that going back to work for your high school after you leave it is about the worst career move you can make. Even going back to your college after you have graduated from grad school may not be a wise choice. The reason for this is that even though you may do work outside of school while you are there, the scope of your experience is very limited. I have seen this multiple times. The university that I work for hired a former student right out of grad school as the professor of lighting. Needless to say, many of his students come to me seeking help and advice because while I don't have an MFA I have the real world experience that is useful for solving many issues.

I also know of a local high school that hired a former student right out of college and it has been very interesting for them. It is too easy to fall back into the groove of "This is how we do it since it has been how we always do it." Every one of us who did theatre in high school felt like we were the "Man in Charge at my High School." We all felt that the program would fall apart once we left (and it is possible that some did) but they do. Good, dedicated students come and go in waves. If you go to college and then go out and get a few years of experience and then still want to go back and work for the high school, that is fine. Just go get the experience first, if nothing else it will give you more resource to draw on when you have to teach.

As people have said, don't plan the rest of your life while you are in high school. So much can happen between now and when you graduate college. For that matter, you might find that you want to become a rocket scientist while taking some gen-ed classes your first semester at college. Let life take it's course, and if you find something you like, go after it. Stay open to whatever opportunities come your way.

 

[Les]

One thing I have noticed is that school technicians come in waves. Some years there will be excellent and motivated students like yourself, and after that, it may be dead for a few years. Then, out of seemingly nowhere, more motivated techs arrive. This is the way it is everywhere, so don't let it freak you out. They may have a hardship when you leave, but somehow they'll make it. They always do.

The main thing is, don't think of them as 'your' students. They're not. You're just like them; one of them.

A few things about this potential position to consider:

The staff that loves you now may be gone by the time you are ready to come back. Don't expect such a warm welcome if this turns out to be the case. Even your friend's dad may not be there.

The job may not pay very much. It's your dream job now, but it might not be in the future. Working for a production company might be more lucrative, and you'll probably get much more experience that way. Every day will be new and exciting, working with top-of-the-line gear which is constantly being upgraded. If you're working in a facility like a school, that new equipment won't be pretty and new for very long. Eventually, it will be on its last leg and guess who will be the one to fix it? Oh, and fixing it isn't as fun as you think when you have upteen hundred instruments who all need rather tedious repairs.

Just some things to consider.

Keep your stick on the ice. Whatever that means.

 

[museav]

Not trying to say your situation may not be different but after 25+ years dealing with projects like this in the professional design and contracting roles and several years prior to that from the student and intern aspect, projects do not usually, in fact never in my experience, work as you seem to think this one will.

If you have a Consultant then they can only be responsible for what they design. They likely have other parties, and possibly with greater authority, that are also providing them direction and input. They may listen to you and consider your input but in the end it will be their name on the drawings and specifications and thus it must also be their design and equipment selections. From experience, to a consultant or designer that will be held ethically and legally liable for the system designs there can be a very significant difference between users that provide extremely welcome and valuable input and users that want to dictate the systems' designs.

If this is a public school then what others have offered is quite valid. The building and installed systems would almost certainly be a capital expenditure and that often has to be approached differently than operational expenditures including there likely being many processes and procedures in place that have to be followed. SPLOST funds, which is what it sounds like you are saying is the funding source, often have additional requirements tied to them. Also note that if you specify equipment that may be beyond what is actually required you leave the project vulnerable to all sorts of Value Engineering and Substitution issues. Which segues to...

Your comments seem to all focus on equipment and specific brands with very little discussion of functionality. You say that they will buy things if you say they are better, but having been through this many times the question you will likely get asked at some point is what makes them the best choice? What is the basis for what you are requesting? Do you really believe that simply having Brand X dimming and Model Y mixer will create a successful result? You might want to focus a bit more on defining what functionality and performance needs to be provided by the systems and what results are necessary for the building and systems to be considered successful. Along those lines, I would probably be worrying a lot more about the lighting positions planned, the circuit count and distribution, the room acoustics, how much space you have at FOH and for equipment rooms, etc. before getting too concerned about the lighting controller and audio mixer models. Don't be yet another facility that spends bunches of money on specific gear but that doesn't function effectively.

I have a feeling that you may also be overlooking the importance and cost associated with infrastructure and all the ancillary items that will be required. I agree that before you get too far into looking at equipment you probably want to verify the actual budget you have to work with and how much of that may be going toward power, conduit, raceways, plates, cable, racks, installation, etc.

A bit into the details but I know that at least here if you were to contact a potential vendor in regards to the project then they would be deemed as having 'prior knowledge' and may subsequently be prohibited from bidding on the work or which could lead to a protest of the bid award. This is the kind of detail where unfamiliarity with the processes and procedures involved could lead to major problems or unintended results. That is actually where you may need to rely heavily on your consultants, it is in understanding what needs to be defined and how things need to be done that they may provide some of their greatest value.

 

[MPowers]

.......after I graduate college is when I would come back, and then, I will be a professional.........

When I left NYC in 1963 and moved from performing to tech, I thought my years as a NY professional Equity dancer/actor made me a Pro. Then I learned what a new-be I was. Went to Nam, came back alive, worked for Foy, Disney, and freelanced pyro and FX in LA., finished my undergrad degree and thought I was a pro. Then I discovered what a new-be I was. Went to grad school expecting to knock their socks off, 'cause "I was a Pro". Learned what a new-be I was. Taught at Central U of Iowa for a few years and designed freelance around the Midwest. Now I'm a pro, and I headed back to full time design/tech work in the LORT world, and learned what a new-be I was.

Long story short, I'm still in the business, long after many people retire, and I'm still learning everyday. A day when I don't learn something new is less than a perfect day. Today I design and install rigging systems and am the in house rigging consultant for RDG Architecture in the Midwest. I've done lighting design for over 100 productions and scenic design for over 200, am I a pro yet? Well, they pay me, so I guess so, but I'm still not sure. I do what I love, I love what I do, I'd do it for free if they'd pay my bills (don't tell my boss that), but I still learn new things about what I do all the time. A Good day is one where I learn something new. When are you really a "PRO"? When you don't have to say it and your colleagues tell you so without asking.

BTW, this post isn't meant as a bash, only as a reality check.

'Bout ten years from now, drop me a line and let me know how things are going, I'd truly like to know.

 

[MNicolai]

I think it's safe to say that Cadmium6855 gets the point.

 

[briancon7]

You said that it will be a rental space as well, so you need to think of what the people renting will be able to use. Most cant use a GrandMA 2.

 

[museav]

I think it's safe to say that Cadmium6855 gets the point.

Just about everything noted in this discussion could also apply to anyone involved in the creation of a new facility. While one goal of discussions is to help the OP, another goal can be to potentially benefit the larger CB community and hopefully some others may also gain something from this thread.

One thing that I have found over the years is that end users sometimes have a very good grasp on what they need functionally and technically but what they rarely have is the knowledge and experience to effectively translate that into the design and construction process. From undesired substitutions to missing base building provisions to what they thought was an be installed system being interpreted as only providing the equipment, I've seen too many people that are very technically capable end up with poor results due their unfamiliarity with the related processed and procedures. As MPowers noted, one of the aspects of becoming a professional is realizing that being capable in one role does not necessarily directly translate to all other potential roles. And that the more you know, the more you also realize how much you don't know.

 

[Cadmium6855]

You said that it will be a rental space as well, so you need to think of what the people renting will be able to use. Most cant use a GrandMA 2.

My house crew will be the ones operating the board, but it looks as of now that we will be getting an ETC congo as well as a plethora of source fours, PARNels, etc. I found out today that they literally just bid the sound out, a semi-local audio company is doing it, don't know what the specs are so, i'll let you know when I do.

 

[metti]

My house crew will be the ones operating the board, but it looks as of now that we will be getting an ETC congo

I'm surprised they would spec a Congo for this sort of application. While I know many people who swear by them, their non-conformity to standard command line syntax makes them an interesting choice for most venues. I tend to see the Ion and Eos being spec'ed more and the Congo being reserved for rentals to programmers who know them.

 

[Cadmium6855]

I was also looking into the Eos or Ion, it is still up in the air, we may go for the Eos.

 

[soundlight]

If this is to be a road house as you say, spec'ing a Congo is a bit backwards thinking. Specing an EOS with an ION as a remote would be the way to go, and would provide the most compatibility with touring theatre shows.

 

[DuckJordan]

I'd be interested to see the specs on the audio gear that the local company brings in, My bet is that it will be way under powered way, under appropriate for the size of venue, and it will be utterly useless with the tuning of the system initially, I would make reference to those in power that they should also make sure the audio company does just put in their B grade system because that's what the budget allows. I see it all too often where Audio company A gets the bid because they offer more equipment for less money than Company B but company B's equipment would be better suited and would come with a comprehensive tuning. This may not be the case since they do have a consultant on the project but I would still be interested on hearing what they spec for the venue.

 

[Cadmium6855]

I know exactly what you mean, and that is usually what schools do and I am going to be extremely unhappy if that is the case... They will just have to re-do it in the future. What my recommendation was to get 2 QSC ILA (installed line arrays) they come with 2 18" subs at the top and 4 3-way speakers, I was going to get 2 of those on either side of the stage. I was also going to tell them to get 6 KW series speakers and 2 dual 18" subs for the front fill, they would be put on the stage deck with the KWs stacked on the sub and then in an arc form so there was no gap of the sound after the tuning... seeing as they just got the bid, that is no longer going to happen and we are probably going to end up with 4 15" speakers hung from the roof with nothing else. I pray that the console was not included, I was going to say we should get an iLive system from allen and heath... its digital, which is what they want, and it is easy to use and, for a digital mixing console, pretty cheap. Ill let you know as soon as I do.

 

[DuckJordan]

I know exactly what you mean, and that is usually what schools do and I am going to be extremely unhappy if that is the case... They will just have to re-do it in the future. What my recommendation was to get 2 QSC ILA (installed line arrays) they come with 2 18" subs at the top and 4 3-way speakers, I was going to get 2 of those on either side of the stage. I was also going to tell them to get 6 KW series speakers and 2 dual 18" subs for the front fill, they would be put on the stage deck with the KWs stacked on the sub and then in an arc form so there was no gap of the sound after the tuning... seeing as they just got the bid, that is no longer going to happen and we are probably going to end up with 4 15" speakers hung from the roof with nothing else. I pray that the console was not included, I was going to say we should get an iLive system from allen and heath... its digital, which is what they want, and it is easy to use and, for a digital mixing console, pretty cheap. Ill let you know as soon as I do.

Line arrays are nice for certain venues, but when it comes to a theatrical situation i haven't found any place that really utilizes them. Standard Box speakers generally fit the build better most of the time (I haven't seen the space nor the acoustics of said room. So suggesting line arrays to me wouldn't be a very good decision at this point.

As far as console go, I am much happier with an old Analog console based mainly on the fact that if it goes down in a show you can get a console to replace it much faster since you wont have effects and other things to reload onto the new console which would mean you could pretty much substitute any analog console to replace it. I may be old fashioned with this view but that's how I see it. What I have seen is spaces with the speakers hung on the center line just in front of the plaster line in Proscenium spaces. That annoys me to all ends basically because you have no way to control directionality.

If it were me, I would probably get a set of four Yamaha S115V speakers, Run those off of two Crown XTi 1000's with some DSP in between the mixer and Amps. I'd also get a pair of Active subs to be able to be moved around whenever you need some low rumble. Most of the time though you wont need them which is why it would be nice to be able to move and store them.

I find it too often that we get into this line array phase where we feel line arrays fit all bills but they really don't they have a specific use as far as concerts are concerned where they do a great job at equally distributing the sound through out the room but in theater the application calls for directionality which i haven't found a line array that can match those needs.

Sorry if I sound brash but we just had a bidder on a new space try and spec line arrays for our new Theater, and when asked why they spec'd those he responded with well all the concerts I rent to enjoy them.

 

[Cadmium6855]

Well, technically ours is a performing arts center, so we need to be prepared for everything, concerts, meetings, smaller events, ect. That is why I spec'd line arrays... doesn't matter anymore, i'll let you know when I know what was spec'd. As for the console, I hope that it is still my call... I would prefer an Analog as well, but that part isn't my call, the committee in-charge and the current consultant are convinced that digital boards are better... the iLive system is very similar to an analoge console, that is why I spec'd it was well, I just liked the way it looked and operated. As for the speakers, I think our new space is bigger than just 4 15" speakers and 2 subs... That leaves for a big gap in some parts of the room, but as I said, no longer an issue.

 

[soundlight]

I have seen line arrays used very well in theatre situations. Also, as was stated, this is a multi-purpose venue. One of the things about specifying speakers is that you have to understand coverage patterns and placement for your room. You can't just get a pair of line arrays and stick them up there. The QSC ILA series, if I recall correctly, is based on their Wideline series - great boxes to be sure, I've heard the Wideline 10 in practical use a good few times, and we had a demo of the Wideline 8 at work and it sounded phenomenal and the coverage was exceptional. However, if the coverage pattern of the ILA doesn't fit the room, you need to look at other boxes. That's something for the company who installs the sound to figure outre su, that's what they're good at (or at least that's what they're supposed to be good at). If your room does work out with them, ILAs are nice. Another product to look at is the JBL VRX series. Nice small and mid-size installation arrays.

I won't comment on the desk options 'cause that's really up to personal preference. Yamaha, Soundcraft and A&H all make good product, and there are many others but those are the ones that I have experience with. Personally, I love the M7CL. Especially when you use it with various Cobranet devices.

 

[pmolsonmus]

Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I've been a teacher in my building for 20 years, head of the music department for 15, am the "go to" guy in the district for sound and light issues (even though we don't have an auditorium) I've been running lights and sound since high school (as a musician- much more sound than light)
However, when we were approved for a 35million dollar renovation it included remodeling an old gym to a black box theater I assumed they were taking my input as well. I attended every meeting, gave specs, got input from many sources (including this site) and..... I eventually learned a new term after much of the construction screwed up our space. Value engineering.

The details on the space are here http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...operations/18313-lights-backdrop-rigging.html

Update on our space is that the motorized truss (due to construction delays and political BS) just became operational this week (almost a year after the space was "done".) and the dimmers became operational today, which is a good thing because there's a show going up on Saturday.

OP -Keep your optimism, keep your enthusiasm, keep your eyes and ears open and learn to value the opinion of experienced people even though their cynicism and jaded points of view become exhausting to listen to. They may not always be right, but they're usually pretty darn close when all is said and done.

Good luck.

 

[hsaunier]

You made a great choice coming here to ask questions. Since you are in the design process, your questions should be more centered on how the venue can be designed to accommodate all the possible events. Good questions to ask on here would be:

Anyone out there operate a "road house" that is attached to a school?

What considerations were made in choosing the design?

How is the venue operated?

What is the most common stage usage?

How often is the stage used?

Does the design fit the usage?

If you could change anything about the design.... what would it be? (I'll answer that one... MORE STORAGE!!!!!)

The success or demise of a venue does not rest on the faders of an audio desk or lighting console. It rests on the shoulders of the people writing the checks. They must have a very clearly mapped out plan of operation. With all due respect... you have not been alive long enough to make some of those choices. You are not even old enough to have helped us choose a president of the United States yet. So focus your intense desire to contribute to listening and learning... your day will come when an interested party will ask your opinion and you can answer with the confidence of a veteran in the industry.

Another barometer to measure your level of experience.... If you can name from memory every show you have done...... you have not done very many shows and a looooooooooong way to go to have any credible chops.