New Theatre Facility Ideas

[SteveB]

Probably the best advice I've ever seen in print about how to build a good theater was think of it as a factory, designed with the goal of building a theatrical event in the most cost effective and efficient manner possible. Aesthetics have a place, especially in the presentation of the space to the audience, but the product on stage is just that, a product.

Things I like about out theater, a 2400 seat road house and stuff I'd fight harder for. Not in any order

- Lot's of A.C power in utility outlets available on-stage (and everywhere else), as "pendant" cables - I.E. double duplex 20 amp edison receptacles, some with a pig-tail 2P&G, all on 75ft SOOW cables permanently attached to a distribution box so I don't have to worry about extension cords getting stolen. I have 18 x 20 amp of these outlets. Some are isolated ground, some are on DMX relays. Provide for a lot of A.C outlets, DMX controlled when possible, in every location you could conceivably place any kind of stage lighting.

- A permanent running light system, cross-over lighting, fly rail lighting system, catwalks, grid systems, etc... all controlled from a backstage and other controllers. Provides blue and N/C where needed. Can be on a Unison/Paradigm type control.

- Unison/Paradigm control for works, running, relays, spotting light, assorted powered devices, all from LCD touchscreens at convenient locations. The nice thing about touchscreens is you can re-program the button and screen functionality down the road when the theater changes some functions and needs to add stuff.

- Ethernet everywhere and more then you can ever consider using.

- Get as many dimmers as possible and scream for more. Do not back down on the numbers of dimmers. At some point somebody will want to use it all. Have every light on it's own dimmer if possible. Have ton's of relay circuits for non-dimmable devices.

- If a proscenium house, do not back down on the grid height. It needs to be as high as code allows and 2-1/2 to 3 times proscenium height - I believe is the usual ?. Do not let them take this away as a cost saving as it's crucial to making the space work efficiently. If they want motorized winches for electrics, that's great if you always have the electrics on the same pipe. Or winch the whole system and make them put in a lot of winches. I'm a big fan of winches currently as we have all our electrics motorized and it's a labor savor. Not totally sold on regular linesets, but I do like simply being able to load a pipe and press UP.

- If a proscenium, cut a 1/4" groove US to DS, back wall to pit edge, filled with the same material as the floor (Masonite, tongue and groove wood, etc...) as a center line mark. Makes life really simple when looking for a measurement point. Do the same L/R at piaster line.

- Put in hot and cold running water near the stage, with a drain/sink. Do not make companies/events that need running water run hoses to some place remote in the building. Washer/Dryer for a tour ?. Doing a show needing a running sink or shower ?, an ice show ?.

That's it for now.

 

[MNicolai]

I really mean this in the nicest way possible, but I've never worked with an architect or theatrical consultant I didn't want to shiv in the back. Usually one has trouble working with the other, or the consultant gets listened to but none of the contractors care, not understanding how integral they are in final outcome of the facility, and next thing you know you've for the lift lines from the main curtain rubbing on the side of a sprinkler pipe, eventually sawing a hole in it after 6 years.

The entire process blows my mind away, because the program never ends up being what it was supposed to be, the architect is more concerned about the visual aesthetics of the building, the EE has never worked on a theatre before, and the theatre consultant hasn't worked as a regular stagehand in two decades. When something idiotically stupid becomes a problem, one of those parties sues the others.

Now we're the ones who look like dingle-fritzes because the front of the building has said "Ocono_____rts Ce_____" for the last six months because the signage lighting broke and everyone wants to sue someone else to avoid having to fix it themselves. Meanwhile, we look incompetent to the tax-paying citizens that built the place because it looks like we don't know how to change some light bulbs.

We also have a couple school board members checking the box office website everyday, counting up tickets and asking why we aren't selling more seats when the seating was decided for the facility not based on community-size, but on student-body size. They wanted to fit half the student body in at once so they could do a morning assembly for the first half and an afternoon assembly for the second half, but in the end it was all a moot point because the school board doesn't want students in there anyways because they think they'll destroy the place.

All of us staff members are just trying to hold on for dear life while the roller coaster continues to seemingly careen off of the tracks, a problem compounded by the fact our one full time person ruptured a tendon last week doing something out of the kindness of his heart that was beyond his job description. Oh, and in the midst of it all, the district IT staff, having solved all other problems in the district, has chosen to make their latest battle be "Who's administering the arts center's Facebook page and what happens if they fall of the face of the planet?"

There are days when the only thing keeping the box office manager and I showing up to the game is our fearless leader. Without us, the district wouldn't care, and he'd take on three times the workload he's already undertaking.

School districts and performance venues will never not be a weird relationship, no matter how the bid spec, program, fine print, design statements and renderings appear.

Just the other day I got yelled at for fixing a problem with one of our dimmer racks because I warned the grounds crew I'd have to shut down the dimmer racks for a while but that it shouldn't disrupt business. Despite having interned at ETC, sat in on NFPA 70E training with David North, and telling them I'd be on the phone with tech support at the manufacturer, they panicked and thought I'd ruin the warranties and destroy the equipment. After I played the "The superintendent's not going to like when she doesn't have lights for her event tomorrow" card, I finally got their attention to let my job done, but only after what shouldn't have been more than a blip on their radar turned into flippin' intercontinental ballistic missile involving a lot of people standing around in the room while I did my work, all who had much better places to be and no helpful advice to offer.

I can literally go on for hours about ways I've seen facilities screwed up or have heard about them being screwed up, but to be completely honest I'd rather go get a hernia. All the checks and balances in the world won't prevent your facility from ending up uniquely flawed in ways that will boggle your mind. Unless you've got $300,000,000 to drop on your theatre, it's the same fate all of the rest of us are doomed to.

And there comes a time when the arguments aren't worth having anymore. "But why on earth did you ever think that'd be a good idea in a roadhouse" you'll shout, and "we weren't building a roadhouse, we were building a high school auditorium," they'll calmly respond while never wanting to talk to you again. Next thing you know, you've got a fire curtain that just drops in whenever it feels like it and a stage floor made out of CDX because in no design meeting did it ever come up what type of floor the stage should have and the consultant hides behind the architect who says nothing more than "Well, we really didn't give that much thought."

(No, seriously, I'm shutting up now.)

 

[zmb]

Off what MNicolai said, even with a dedicated voter bond and joint school district-outside foundation ownership, a facility that has been used from worldwide touring acts to my junior high's spring play to elementary music nights will still have flaws. I am guessing that many professional theatres have their own flaws too.

 

[museav]

I really mean this in the nicest way possible, but I've never worked with an architect or theatrical consultant I didn't want to shiv in the back. Usually one has trouble working with the other, or the consultant gets listened to but none of the contractors care, not understanding how integral they are in final outcome of the facility, and next thing you know you've for the lift lines from the main curtain rubbing on the side of a sprinkler pipe, eventually sawing a hole in it after 6 years.

Mike, I understand your frustration but much of what you noted is not so much a matter of the individual parties as it is of the process. Theatres are special spaces but too many times their design, construction and even operation and management gets approached like other facilities with which some of the parties involved are familiar. Too many projects are much like the video clip earlier in this thread, you initially have to make guesses as to what is really wanted only to have that second guessed throughout the process until you finally get someone who can tell you what they are really wanting who is looking for something totally different than what was initially defined.

Many people also do not realize that Consultants often have no control over what actually ends up happening on projects, all they can really do is make recommendations based on the information they are provided. If the Owner can not define what they want then the Consultant has to guess based on whatever information they can gather. Other parties inserted between the Consultant and Owner may filter the Consultant's recommendations or requests. Contractors may be asked to provide or offer alternatives and Value Engineering options that are accepted regardless of whether the Consultant supports, or is even aware of, them.

Also keep in mind that it is quite common for the planning of a theatre or auditorium to start some years before the facility opens. As a result, many times both the people involved and the goals for the venue may change over that time period. Changes to the functional requirements or goals for the facility can typically be accommodated fairly easily during initial planning, with greater difficulty during the design process, with even more difficulty during bidding and are sometimes virtually impossible once construction has started. Unfortunately, I have been involved with numerous new facilities where the actual operators and managers were not involved, or even hired, until well into the process. On some projects the first time I was able to speak with the TD or any of the tech staff was literally during the final systems' inspections and too often those people's vision of the facility turn out to be quite different from that defined back when things could have been easily changed.

The point I'm trying to make is how critical it is to focus on the team, process and overall goals first. Worry about how and when things should be defined and how to ensure their being followed through before worrying about what to define. Perhaps I can sum in that I have had multiple Owners and Architects express the belief that if a Consultant does their job then they are guaranteed a good result. That's a bit like saying that a good script guarantees a good show regardless of the director, cast, crew, etc., much less regardless of how much you edit it. The reality is that everyone has to do their part, at the right time, in the right order and with good communication, for it to all come together. No project or building is perfect, but with the right people, process and attitudes, they can be very good experiences for everyone involved even when they are challenging.

 

[Mim]

I really appreciate all of the info and advice on this thread. I knew before I initially posted that the approach was not standard procedure. I've observed the design and construction of another venue (not with my current employer) so I am aware of many prevailing practices - but used this post as a way to detail the process for the directors and visionaries so that I was not speaking alone. I requested that they backtrack their process to acquire a consultant before settling on budget numbers, and although we still have numbers they prefer to work within - we've just begun working with the consultants, so positive progress is ahead! Thank you everyone!

 

[techietim]

A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s.
What do you love about your theatre, and why?
It's big! Plenty of kit and big stores for technical stuff like the Lighting and Sound equipment

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?
Not much, the fact that our rehearsal rooms are actually down the road is a bit unfortunate, it's also a relatively old building

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?
Move the rehearsal rooms into the theatre and modernise backstage, create a crew room

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?
No preference

What is most challenging about your current space?
Space! In places there isn't very much of it!

Any other input would be certainly appreciated as I will be soon be handed an advisory position on a new project that is 5 years out, and want to be certain I am covering as many scenarios and issues I possibly can.
Somewhere for the crew to 'chill' before or after shows or even during rehearsals/the day would be a really good idea. Hungry techies = very bad!

 

[Brandofhawk]

I typed up a whole response to (just about) every question you asked for the three theaters I worked in at college which I grew to know over time... and then I decided that I'd rather just throw in some ideas / thoughts about the subject. A lot of good suggestions that I like, and wouldn't have thought of have been said here.

So here are my two cents.

In college we had a tension grid. It was awesome, made hang go quick and easy, but made focus a nightmare because the support I beams were always in the way of a quarter of the hanged instruments meaning there was a significant amount of time needed to adjust to get the right shot to the stage. But with the right planning could be avoided. Tension grid also helped to teach students proper techniques, allowing for a more knowledgeable hand to stand by and supervise new lighting techs and help if the need came. (Much harder to do with a ladder/lift.) The other option of course being a catwalk where the same can happen, but the catwalk gives less options for lighting angles.

If you're thinking of a fly system, make sure there is a professional rigger to maintain the rig and get it checked out constantly. And make sure that no one operates it who is untrained/not properly aware of how the system works. In college, in the basic training part of the introduction to tech class they would tell students how to operate in a 5 minute session, but not explain the system fully and that always scared the piss out of me. I don't think that a student has ever used it without getting a better training first but still... they never said what the real danger with the system is.

Also depending on size, it would probably be a good idea to get large equipment closets which can be locked to store older equipment that always is kept around a theater when the newer stuff dies or any special need arise. Of course, storage is always a large concern including the ability to get it from point A to point B.

I also agree with others in saying that Ethernet and DMX should be placed everywhere, along with standard Edison circuits (planning for the move from conventional to led? or even just to support some accessories.) Including the middle of the house.

In a blackbox theater they recently built on campus for the visual arts grad students (they are like ... techno-artists/hippys) they built in empty conduit everywhere they could. A lot of it is filled now, some to the point of max capacity.. and the space is now two or three years old. It also has cable pass throughs to allow cables to run through walls as opposed to through a door way potentially getting crushed/cut in the door. Thought that the conduit was nice, and that the pass through was a very neat idea in more ways than one.

In short:
Tension Grids, good for educational facilities
Fly Systems NEED constant attention from properly trained individuals
Storage storage storage (what theater do YOU know of that has all the storage they need?)
Ethernet, DMX, Power, all over everywhere.
Cable management: Conduit for expanding, pass through to get around doors/walls.

These are my thoughts. Some were alittle borrowed from other posts though

I feel like there are a lot of things which I have encountered in the theaters I've worked at which I've taken for granted that could have simply not been designed or included ever. I'm going to try to figure out what those things are and then give a silent thanks to the person who designed/consulted/built/etc.

 

[Tex]

If you're going to specify a Wenger Diva shell, design a place for it to live that doesn't take up wing space.
When you get a date of completion from the general contractor, add about four months to that and then schedule your first real event.
These are a couple of thoughts after a tough week...

 

[venuetech]

A Freight elevator large enuf to get a 9' concert grand piano in. having that offers so much more flexibility than having to use the apron/pit lift each time something needs to go between the stage and trap room.

and about the apron/pit lift DO NOT have this hydraulically operated, as that tends to bleed off till it needs to be re-leveled on a consistent basis. we called this burping and it is no fun when you are on a ladder or AWP.

 

[DuckJordan]

or use a centralized pump, ours is hydraulic with self leveling sensors to control valves.

 

[Footer]

Well, if we are going to bring this thing back from the dead....

Don't put two theatres in a giant ****ing egg.

 

[avkid]

What do you love about your theatre, and why?
It's on the beach, designed by world famous architects, built for Vaudeville so you need no amplification if you can sing.

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?
No shop space or inside crossover.

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?
Definitely keep the dome and terra cotta, a proper loading dock would be most useful.

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?
Proscenium, If I want a thrust I build it.

What is most challenging about your current space?
Vintage fly system and no installed dimming.

 

[chausman]

Ohhh... I finally have a theater to talk about! (This is probably not an exhaustive list, and certainly not in any specific order. (Oh, and I'l love to keep talking about the strangeness of our theater if anyone is really interested))

What do you love about your theatre, and why?
The place was designed to expand, much beyond the scope of the original TD.
I have power, mic inputs, speaker outputs, and coms run everywhere. There is also district wide network/building wide CCTV run in many places. (I do wish that the Network had a home run to the booth instead of an electrical closet which we have no access to.)
We have a good number of dimmers, and good lighting positions.
Lots of power available power, with all of our power coming straight into the dimmer room.
Good acoustics for a high school

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?
The seats are too close together, meaning it's hard to fit a table on the seats to run a show from the house.
The booth has windows, that don't open very far.
Our houselights are slow and not very flexible.
Our fly system is too short! (and the curtains too tall (The legs are about an inch above my head, and the travelers can only fly about 4'))
We have 12 dimmers along the upstage side of the proscenium... and 12 dimmers total for the 2nd catwalk.
Our inventory is rather dated lighting wise
The center cluster is too high vertically, and sounds rather ...crappy.
The way it is situated with the rest of the building, the fire doors and a large accordion door in the commons could be perfect for shows, that could be completely seperate from the rest of the building, and allow backstage to be separate from the lobby...but it isn't. Completely
Shop is too hard to build in (long and skinny)
The blackbox space is too small (IMO)

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?
I would have a more useful distribution of dimmers. I don't need 12 dimmers along the proscenium, and way more then 12 for our 2nd catwalk.
The way it is situated with the rest of the building, the fire doors and a large accordion door in the commons could be perfect for shows, that could be completely seperate from the rest of the building, and allow backstage to be separate from the lobby...but it isn't. Completely closing the divider would lock patrons in the wrong part of the building, away from restrooms, and everything else. The fire doors should be moved about 6' to the other side of the side door.
The booth shouldn't have windows.
There is no good crossover.

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?
I prefer proscenium spaces.

What is most challenging about your current space?
Finding open dimmers in the catwalks.

 

[MPowers]

Well, if we are going to bring this thing back from the dead....

Don't put two theatres in a giant ****ing egg.

I seem to recall, that's why I turned down a job there in '83 ....or '84....! Been a while. didn't really like the egg concept.

 

[Footer]

I seem to recall, that's why I turned down a job there in '83 ....or '84....! Been a while. didn't really like the egg concept.

''

Now, your bigger issue there is that was under the NYSTI regime... and that thing did not end so well when it finally went away. You dodged a bullet there.

When you are in the space you don't actually know your in an egg. The fly house is all square and there is no building weirdness. The major issues with the building is our freight elevator and the fact the venue is on state property. Because of the state thing every truck that enters our dock has to have security clearance. Our freight elevator is 40 years old, 24' wide, 9' deep, and 24' tall. It has electrics in it and can serve as the US portion of our smaller space. It and one other 9' diameter round elevator are the only things that hit our loading dock. Being 40 years old and a custom job it is not exactly running right. About every 3rd show we end up loading out through the little elevator because the big one died... and let me tell you how much fun it is to walk full stage rugs down stairwells... 12 stories. This summer they are doing a full rebuild on it at a cost of about 2 million, so hopefully then it will be stable.

So, point of this whole rant... if you are going to build a 55 million dollar building, make sure you can maintain a 55 million dollar billion. That statement there is pretty much the entire issue with the 1.7 billion dollar (and that is in 1970's dollars) complex I work on.

Oh, and most of our lighting rig is original to building. Fun.

 

[museav]

So, point of this whole rant... if you are going to build a 55 million dollar building, make sure you can maintain a 55 million dollar billion. That statement there is pretty much the entire issue with the 1.7 billion dollar (and that is in 1970's dollars) complex I work on.

Beyond a physical facilities operations budget, I've been involved in numerous facilities that start planning, design and even construction without any real consideration for staffing. I've gotten to where I believe some people think an arts center or community center runs itself or can be operated by the maintenance staff until they actually see that doesn't work.

Then as opening gets near they eventually realize they need someone to manage the facility. And that person then convinces them they need someone to coordinate booking, scheduling and sales. Often the last one in, and sometimes after opening, is a Tech Director. It is so backwards when those parties should be the very people helping define the vision for the venue.

I'm going out to meet today on such a project. The AV Contractor got behind and apparently as a result pretty much left everyone else out of the loop. The venue still has no TD, they currently contract tech services, however I am meeting the Facility Manager for the very first time today, well over a month after the venue opened. And his primary question is that he has no idea what he is supposed to have because no one explained it to him or put us in contact. It being a government project greatly explains it but I've had similar experiences woth other projects as well. And as often happens in such situations, the original general intent for this venue was local community events, regional touring acts, etc. By opening they had an arrangement with a local theatre group and two local colleges and that is now essentially a resident troupe, a significantly different situation than what was initially defined.

 

[cpf]

As other people have said, you cannot underestimate the importance of the manager/promoter/booking person.

The space I'm in has a laundry list of technical downfalls, results of everything from budget cuts to the fact that most of the technical aspects were designed by an architect and contracted out to a home theatre installer.

But over the three years since open (and still without an official TD), it's grown to become the most popular venue in the region for "high end" shows, and nearly every group that's booked in have had a successful show/run, and have came back the following year wanting to book again.

So, the lesson being, if you miss the opportunity to make your venue technically excellent, be sure to make up for it in the choice of people promoting and running it.