To prove Ducks point, I make $10 an hour as a student for outside events, as a Freshman.
As far as the numbers you threw out, those almost all seem low.
Operating Budgets - Recommendations
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To prove Ducks point, I make $10 an hour as a student for outside events, as a Freshman.
As far as the numbers you threw out, those almost all seem low.
Aman: Specifically then, if it will get me some numbers, I'm talking about a facility that was built as part of a high school. The community paid for most of the construction costs so it's supposed to be a joint school/community facility.
The school promised to manage and provide for operations. They are not managing nor providing for operations.
I would like to organize a community revolt and offer to lease the facility from the school and take over operations. Which will never happen. But, what might a budget look like?
If the school says, "you pay utilities", what might I lay on the table as an average across the country, for a facility like this? Or if they say, "we pay utilities, you owe us", what are they contributing?
What might a budget look like?
How much might I have to beg from the local business owners and arts supporters? (That is directly related to the number of butts that have to be kissed.)
What sort of realistic operating budget does anyone else operate under?
What actual costs are other people facing?
The school promised to manage and provide for operations. They are not managing nor providing for operations.
I would like to organize a community revolt and offer to lease the facility from the school and take over operations. Which will never happen. But, what might a budget look like?
If the school says, "you pay utilities", what might I lay on the table as an average across the country, for a facility like this? Or if they say, "we pay utilities, you owe us", what are they contributing?
What might a budget look like?
How much might I have to beg from the local business owners and arts supporters? (That is directly related to the number of butts that have to be kissed.)
What sort of realistic operating budget does anyone else operate under?
What actual costs are other people facing?
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
considering its a school owned facility, even if the community paid for most of it, you are going to have a hard time getting control of that facility. Right now I work in a city owned arts center. It won't be as easy as walking in as a community and saying we will run this place. You will have to get the student board to agree, as well as the city to agree, since this is a public building. you may have to establish a company in order to manage the facility, Not to mention they were placed in control so they likely tied into all the "utilities" to the school building and the only way to get that changed is going to cost bookoo bucks.
The numbers are probably gonna cost a "non government" agency close to a mill a year just in operational budget this would include hiring staff, hiring security, keeping the lights on, keeping the sewage paid, making sure everything remains safe. Also being apart of a school facility you'll have to abide by their rules. Unless you can physically separate the building from the other. (Locked doors, no access to the school without proper ID and approval.) then this probably won't ever happen. Unfortunately talking budget is a moot point. Thats a very small factor in this whole deal. I would suggest instead of trying to run it out right is join the board of administrators (run for the position) and get the changes done through the school.
The numbers are probably gonna cost a "non government" agency close to a mill a year just in operational budget this would include hiring staff, hiring security, keeping the lights on, keeping the sewage paid, making sure everything remains safe. Also being apart of a school facility you'll have to abide by their rules. Unless you can physically separate the building from the other. (Locked doors, no access to the school without proper ID and approval.) then this probably won't ever happen. Unfortunately talking budget is a moot point. Thats a very small factor in this whole deal. I would suggest instead of trying to run it out right is join the board of administrators (run for the position) and get the changes done through the school.
Sk8 - I didn't think to look at Canada. Good idea.
>good luck getting a TD with that low amount of money
I agree, but the school won't even pay $9. I've been there for 8 years and the only time they offered to pay me anything (one event, just recently) the pay ended up to be less than $1 per hour. They want to have a teacher administrate the place and have "someone" take care of the tech. We'll write a grant!
Can you say burned out?
Separate issue - we don't really know the costs do we. So many are hidden or "other" covered costs. How can we know what is profitable when so many of the costs are hidden like that. We have to evolve to compete with the alternatives out there. Hard to do when we dont know what they are.
Duck - Thank you! >When I worked for the local High school, about a 750 seat cap, 5 theater shows a year 15 concerts per year, class in the theater maybe twice a week. We had an operating budget of 10k, This included replacement lamps, consumables, Show materials (also got an add in $500 for each show just for materials). Any costs as far as TD, LD, SD, or any other consulting for the shows, Not to mention tools, any new equipment.
Your labor costs TD, LD, SD tools equipment, were also part of that $10K +$500 per show? Wow, pretty tight. Did you keep ticket sales, or did the groups keep that separate?
JL - >I'll bite on this one
Thanks. Those figures look very reasonable, Your labor being all volunteer makes it work, wow. How wide is your playing space or proscenium?
>If we had to pay our volunteers - that would be several hundred thousand dollars at least.
How do you keep them feeling paid in what they get out of the experience? How do you keep that going?
>As far as the numbers you threw out, those almost all seem low.
I agree, but tounge firmly in cheek, probably unreasonably high.
>good luck getting a TD with that low amount of money
I agree, but the school won't even pay $9. I've been there for 8 years and the only time they offered to pay me anything (one event, just recently) the pay ended up to be less than $1 per hour. They want to have a teacher administrate the place and have "someone" take care of the tech. We'll write a grant!
Can you say burned out?
Separate issue - we don't really know the costs do we. So many are hidden or "other" covered costs. How can we know what is profitable when so many of the costs are hidden like that. We have to evolve to compete with the alternatives out there. Hard to do when we dont know what they are.
Duck - Thank you! >When I worked for the local High school, about a 750 seat cap, 5 theater shows a year 15 concerts per year, class in the theater maybe twice a week. We had an operating budget of 10k, This included replacement lamps, consumables, Show materials (also got an add in $500 for each show just for materials). Any costs as far as TD, LD, SD, or any other consulting for the shows, Not to mention tools, any new equipment.
Your labor costs TD, LD, SD tools equipment, were also part of that $10K +$500 per show? Wow, pretty tight. Did you keep ticket sales, or did the groups keep that separate?
JL - >I'll bite on this one
Thanks. Those figures look very reasonable, Your labor being all volunteer makes it work, wow. How wide is your playing space or proscenium?
>If we had to pay our volunteers - that would be several hundred thousand dollars at least.
How do you keep them feeling paid in what they get out of the experience? How do you keep that going?
>As far as the numbers you threw out, those almost all seem low.
I agree, but tounge firmly in cheek, probably unreasonably high.
As duck mentioned, having "paid" for it doesn't mean you own it, it means, if you're lucky, you get a plaque on the wall that says we kindly thank you for your generous donations. It's worse that it's physically attached to the school, but more to the point, it would be remarkably difficult to try to wrestle it out of the districts hands. Who went into this "agreement" and who do you report to? Was there a contract that specifically spelled it out and said if one party doesn't hold up to the agreement talk to the mayor to get it fixed? My point is I doubt there is a higher power for you to appeal to outside of the group who isn't managing things the way you like. And you have no real recourse to take it from them. You'll say we all say give it to us, and they will say no.
Realistically if you want this information, ask the school. They (I assume) are a public school so they should be able to make that information available as far as what the costs are. That would give you exactly the answer instead of other people giving you ballpark figures for other facilities. do you have anybody on your side that actually knows what they are doing when it comes to theatre management? I mean no offense but what makes you think your group will manage it better if you don't have anybody who has done this before?
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Realistically if you want this information, ask the school. They (I assume) are a public school so they should be able to make that information available as far as what the costs are. That would give you exactly the answer instead of other people giving you ballpark figures for other facilities. do you have anybody on your side that actually knows what they are doing when it comes to theatre management? I mean no offense but what makes you think your group will manage it better if you don't have anybody who has done this before?
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>even if the community paid for most of it, you are going to have a hard time getting control of that facility.
HAHAHA, I just came from a meeting which pretty much said that. They don't know how to run the space, don't have the money to run the space, and won't let someone else run it. And expect "someone" will come in and do it for them.
>I would suggest instead of trying to run it out right is join the board of administrators (run for the position) and get the changes done through the school.
Can't happen. They wrote it down, and call me Dogberry already.
The approach seems to need to be: "Safety, Student Education, Liability - It's a specialized classroom and learning space, with unique needs, that is not fully functioning." Meeting with the Superintendant Monday....
HAHAHA, I just came from a meeting which pretty much said that. They don't know how to run the space, don't have the money to run the space, and won't let someone else run it. And expect "someone" will come in and do it for them.
>I would suggest instead of trying to run it out right is join the board of administrators (run for the position) and get the changes done through the school.
Can't happen. They wrote it down, and call me Dogberry already.
The approach seems to need to be: "Safety, Student Education, Liability - It's a specialized classroom and learning space, with unique needs, that is not fully functioning." Meeting with the Superintendant Monday....
Yes, ultimately we are screwed and have no recourse. The administration that made the "deals" with the community, to get the entire school built in the first place, are long gone. Yup, big mistake, huge.
They are dis-avowing any community expectations at all.
School is not forthcoming with info at all.
>do you have anybody on your side that actually knows what they are doing when it comes to theatre management?
In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!
They are dis-avowing any community expectations at all.
School is not forthcoming with info at all.
>do you have anybody on your side that actually knows what they are doing when it comes to theatre management?
In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!
JLNorthGA
Active Member
Our proscenium opening is 30' W x 16' H. Our apron is ~11'. The stage depth is ~24' D.
As I said, it is a community playhouse. Our volunteers are quite dedicated.
Some other numbers on plays - our operating budget for a play (not a musical) is typically $3000. That covers scripts, peformance rights, sets, lights, etc. Musicals are higher - while the actors are not paid - we do give a token payment to the musicians. The rights for musicals are also much higher.
Maintenance budget - I scrape by on about $3000/year. HVAC, Electrical, paint, etc. Fortunately I can do a lot of the work myself.
Website - factor in that for a cost - we've got a guy who maintains for free - but you've got to pay for hosting one - so figure on some $ for that.
Having one eye however doesn't make a good king.
It's a pretty drastic measure and someone may correct me if I'm wrong but being a public school you could compel them to show you the numbers whether they want to. Freedom of information act should allow you to see that. File a request and they'll have to show you.
Realistically trying to force control over to your group won't happen and when the building was finished the school was handed the keys i bet, and nobody outside got one. trying to "revolt" will only further sour opinions and create more hostility.compromise in this case is your friend and finding some sort of solution that fits both needs is the best scenario. Volunteering your time and energy may be the only thing you can do.
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Hello again, Sorry I've been busy the past few days.
Thank you for some of the answers that I was looking for, I'm able to help you a little bit better now. Those were some of the questions we were kicking around on the space that I was consulting on this summer. Part of what we did was create an estimated budget for the first three years. Would you like to be able to figure up a budget estimate for your space? I can Help you figure that out for no cost if you are interested, but those are much more formulas than hard numbers.
If you would like some hard numbers look here. If you click on a theater, then you will find an overall budget number for finances. This is one of the websites I listed in my first post.
http://www.tcg.org/tools/profiles/member_profiles/profile_results.cfm
also if you pick up a phone, you would be best to talk to people in your State. If you explain your story then they might be more willing to help. They will also know local vendors.
Montana Acting; Montana Theatre Links
You need the previous information for a venue in a similar situation. There are a few. Once you find this place if they are state run then that information will be a line item in their states budget. These are not hidden costs, They are a matter of public record and and available to any one who asks. Those numbers are hard to find and you will need help. Finding that number will take you a long time and it will not help you. I used to work for a Community college that ran a community Center very close to what was originally supported by your people. The college took care of the facilities budget. If you PM me I will be happy to get you some contact info for the guy who heads up that space. He can advise you in the finances of that space far better than I can.
I suggest you listen to Duck about how to proceed, as his idea of running for a county position is going to be your best bet. I would also suggest finding a way that the existing space can bring in outside money, as well as finding community money that can help you build an argument to keep the Auditorium open. ( taking a night class on grant writing can never hurt you ) This really would be the best way that we can help you make this happen.
In My position I am only responsible for lighting. I'm not comfortable posting budget numbers for my department on this public forum at this point, but I would be happy to share some of the formulas I use to make annul estimates in terms of lighting. I do admire your passion right now, but I feel like it's a little misplaced. I hope that you can use us as a resource to actually keep your venue open, which is what I'm sure that we are all in favor of and willing to support. Which leads to another question, Is the Venue open in any way whatsoever right now? How are you connected to the Venue?
Thank you for some of the answers that I was looking for, I'm able to help you a little bit better now. Those were some of the questions we were kicking around on the space that I was consulting on this summer. Part of what we did was create an estimated budget for the first three years. Would you like to be able to figure up a budget estimate for your space? I can Help you figure that out for no cost if you are interested, but those are much more formulas than hard numbers.
If you would like some hard numbers look here. If you click on a theater, then you will find an overall budget number for finances. This is one of the websites I listed in my first post.
http://www.tcg.org/tools/profiles/member_profiles/profile_results.cfm
also if you pick up a phone, you would be best to talk to people in your State. If you explain your story then they might be more willing to help. They will also know local vendors.
Montana Acting; Montana Theatre Links
You need the previous information for a venue in a similar situation. There are a few. Once you find this place if they are state run then that information will be a line item in their states budget. These are not hidden costs, They are a matter of public record and and available to any one who asks. Those numbers are hard to find and you will need help. Finding that number will take you a long time and it will not help you. I used to work for a Community college that ran a community Center very close to what was originally supported by your people. The college took care of the facilities budget. If you PM me I will be happy to get you some contact info for the guy who heads up that space. He can advise you in the finances of that space far better than I can.
I suggest you listen to Duck about how to proceed, as his idea of running for a county position is going to be your best bet. I would also suggest finding a way that the existing space can bring in outside money, as well as finding community money that can help you build an argument to keep the Auditorium open. ( taking a night class on grant writing can never hurt you ) This really would be the best way that we can help you make this happen.
In My position I am only responsible for lighting. I'm not comfortable posting budget numbers for my department on this public forum at this point, but I would be happy to share some of the formulas I use to make annul estimates in terms of lighting. I do admire your passion right now, but I feel like it's a little misplaced. I hope that you can use us as a resource to actually keep your venue open, which is what I'm sure that we are all in favor of and willing to support. Which leads to another question, Is the Venue open in any way whatsoever right now? How are you connected to the Venue?
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>what are you actually trying to accomplish with this?
Taking that as, "what's the overall goal?"
Hmmmm.
1. I would like to come into the space to do a 90 minute event and not have to spend a day (8 hours) cleaning the stage and house, replacing sockets on the Altmans, re-lamping a dozen fixtures, re-soldering the mic cables, replacing the burned color, troubleshooting audio channel one, fixing the running lights,... (every fricken time) in a facility that someone is supposed to be managing.
2. I'd love to create a student training program.
3. Crate a master schedule that includes changeovers and integration of technical elements between groups.
4. That we support all the users of the space and not leave them hanging trying to figure out how to turn the lights on or get a mic working.
5. Create an organized and efficiently operating facility.
6. Add more storage space.
7. And "enjoy" doing a show once in a while.
I guess the biggest thing for me is seeing the community's 100+ little kids try out to do the Missoula Children's touring show. The 160+ girls in the local dance company. The 190+ kids in the music program, the 30 doing a play.... Hearing bluegrass music one day and African drums the next. (And this is a tiny community.) Not that I have a pedophilia issue or anything....
It breaks my heart to see the community effort and energy being neglected, and a facility that has such potential, but is being run into the ground.
Website, yes. I think including a "Community Box Office" so all the events can work together and share resources, and all ticket buyers know where to go and go to one place for tickets and event information.
Remember I am a drama person. "Revolt" metaphorically speaking. I'll head in today (hopefully) to see the school board minutes from that time period and see the actual discussions.
Taking that as, "what's the overall goal?"
Hmmmm.
1. I would like to come into the space to do a 90 minute event and not have to spend a day (8 hours) cleaning the stage and house, replacing sockets on the Altmans, re-lamping a dozen fixtures, re-soldering the mic cables, replacing the burned color, troubleshooting audio channel one, fixing the running lights,... (every fricken time) in a facility that someone is supposed to be managing.
2. I'd love to create a student training program.
3. Crate a master schedule that includes changeovers and integration of technical elements between groups.
4. That we support all the users of the space and not leave them hanging trying to figure out how to turn the lights on or get a mic working.
5. Create an organized and efficiently operating facility.
6. Add more storage space.
7. And "enjoy" doing a show once in a while.
I guess the biggest thing for me is seeing the community's 100+ little kids try out to do the Missoula Children's touring show. The 160+ girls in the local dance company. The 190+ kids in the music program, the 30 doing a play.... Hearing bluegrass music one day and African drums the next. (And this is a tiny community.) Not that I have a pedophilia issue or anything....
It breaks my heart to see the community effort and energy being neglected, and a facility that has such potential, but is being run into the ground.
Website, yes. I think including a "Community Box Office" so all the events can work together and share resources, and all ticket buyers know where to go and go to one place for tickets and event information.
Remember I am a drama person. "Revolt" metaphorically speaking. I'll head in today (hopefully) to see the school board minutes from that time period and see the actual discussions.
Side note:
To complicate the matters, the local economies have been hit hard, not just by 09, but by the Federal limitations on logging. This gutted the community and many families.
We are also in a strange position from the County Government standpoint. There are 3 county "supervisors". Two, represent the two similar communities together about 90 miutes away from the third community. The third (our) community always has two votes against us. It's hard to get any County efforts accomplished.
From a State standpoint, All I hear from every school, is "we have no money".
>"Revolt" - I would imagine a partnership could be the the best solution for everyone. We have volunteers, expertise and money, they have the responsibility for a community-built facility. Let's work together. ( But let's face it, would you work with me? Maybe I need a "beard".)
>I can Help you figure that out for no cost if you are interested,
That is extremely kind and generous of you, thank you. Before we do that, let me have the next meeting with the school's head honcho first. I might have a better direction then. (or will have quit my volunteer efforts)
It might make it easier to convince him to lease us the space if he hears, "It will take you $942,548.67 per year to operate this facility in a safe manner. Here is the realistic budget you face. Leasing it to the community is a better solution for you and your students."
But probably not.
>Those numbers are hard to find and you will need help. Finding that number will take you a long time and it will not help you.
You are probably very right.
- real data in those links, much is just too general -
But, I'll keep looking, thanks.
Part of what I do see is to expect expenses to be paid for, less by earned income and will probably need more from contributions.
"Smaller theatres, with budgets under $1 million, tended to be much more reliant on contributed income, which made them vulnerable to a tighter giving climate. Proportionally, they received a higher percentage of their funding from non-trustee individuals, state and federal government sources and foundations. They raised more of their budget from holding fundraising events and garnering in-kind donations."
>I'm not comfortable posting budget numbers for my department on this public forum at this point,
Maybe most people feel the same way? And maybe that's why I don't find actual numbers out there?
>I do admire your passion right now, but I feel like it's a little misplaced.
Seriously, (really) where might it be better placed? School board or county government? I think that would be misplaced. I do think we need a new Federal Civil Rights Title IX.V providing for equal funding for arts as to sports.
>Which leads to another question, Is the Venue open in any way whatsoever right now?
Yes, open and a disaster waiting to happen. Hopefully just someone dropping a crescent wrench and not a Station Nightclub.
>How are you connected to the Venue?
I think about that alot. I'm even unclear about it.
Meanwhile at Sandy Hook Elementary School... Dang.
Nevermind.
To complicate the matters, the local economies have been hit hard, not just by 09, but by the Federal limitations on logging. This gutted the community and many families.
We are also in a strange position from the County Government standpoint. There are 3 county "supervisors". Two, represent the two similar communities together about 90 miutes away from the third community. The third (our) community always has two votes against us. It's hard to get any County efforts accomplished.
From a State standpoint, All I hear from every school, is "we have no money".
>"Revolt" - I would imagine a partnership could be the the best solution for everyone. We have volunteers, expertise and money, they have the responsibility for a community-built facility. Let's work together. ( But let's face it, would you work with me? Maybe I need a "beard".)
>I can Help you figure that out for no cost if you are interested,
That is extremely kind and generous of you, thank you. Before we do that, let me have the next meeting with the school's head honcho first. I might have a better direction then. (or will have quit my volunteer efforts)
It might make it easier to convince him to lease us the space if he hears, "It will take you $942,548.67 per year to operate this facility in a safe manner. Here is the realistic budget you face. Leasing it to the community is a better solution for you and your students."
But probably not.
>Those numbers are hard to find and you will need help. Finding that number will take you a long time and it will not help you.
You are probably very right.
- real data in those links, much is just too general -
But, I'll keep looking, thanks.
Part of what I do see is to expect expenses to be paid for, less by earned income and will probably need more from contributions.
"Smaller theatres, with budgets under $1 million, tended to be much more reliant on contributed income, which made them vulnerable to a tighter giving climate. Proportionally, they received a higher percentage of their funding from non-trustee individuals, state and federal government sources and foundations. They raised more of their budget from holding fundraising events and garnering in-kind donations."
>I'm not comfortable posting budget numbers for my department on this public forum at this point,
Maybe most people feel the same way? And maybe that's why I don't find actual numbers out there?
>I do admire your passion right now, but I feel like it's a little misplaced.
Seriously, (really) where might it be better placed? School board or county government? I think that would be misplaced. I do think we need a new Federal Civil Rights Title IX.V providing for equal funding for arts as to sports.
>Which leads to another question, Is the Venue open in any way whatsoever right now?
Yes, open and a disaster waiting to happen. Hopefully just someone dropping a crescent wrench and not a Station Nightclub.
>How are you connected to the Venue?
I think about that alot. I'm even unclear about it.
Meanwhile at Sandy Hook Elementary School... Dang.
Nevermind.
Having been involved with several public/private partnership performing arts facilities I have to ask why you looking at leasing or 'taking over' the venue as that seems to entail all sorts of potential legal and practical details and pifalls? As Duck noted, instead of some undefined entity leasing the venue, have you considered forming a company that the Owner would then contract to manage/operate the venue? That is more common and seems likely to alleviate or simplify many of the issues related to responsibility and authority as well as practical issues related to shared building facilities and systems.
In either case, before you can define the costs themselves you need to identify what costs are part of the operations budget. Until you have an agreement in place or at least an outline for one then how do you know how utilities and basic services costs will be handled, much less what they might be? Would you be hiring labor, purchasing supplies, etc. or would it be the Owner (which as private versus public entities might be two very different situations)? And what costs would be considered production rather than operating costs?
You might also want to consider the other side in terms of what you are offering them. What I don't seem to see mentioned is a 'sales pitch' for how this would benefit the Owner and/or the community and anything addressing the return on investment as well as how this would work in the long run. I say this as I have been involved in a project where the private group basically took over and the school got stuck with the bills and minimal return and another project where once the private entity put in their money and got the facility running the school pushed them out. You probably need to present how you see this being a viable long term arrangement and the potential advantages to the Owner or you have given them no reason to listen to you regardless of the costs involved.
Or perhaps they have seen the potential implications of assumptions and/or unasked/unanswered questions and prefer to offer as informed responses as possible.
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