The above Ad will no longer appear after you Sign Up for Free!

Peeling floor

Discussion in 'Stage Management and Facility Operations' started by jayvee, Jan 18, 2018.

  1. jayvee

    jayvee Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    MD
    Hi folks,

    At the beginning of this school year a new layer of maso was installed on my stage. I was assured it would be tempered and pre-painted, etc. We are into the school year now and any kind of tape peels the paint off the floor, down to fuzzy fibers. This started with our first production rehearsal in September and I brought it to the attention of my Plant supervisor who, in turn, had the installers out to look. They were shocked and amazed and said they've never run into anything like it before and could I just only use blue painter's tape from now on and maybe a few more layers of paint and they would look into additives or other solutions. Now, I've been a few places and seen a few things, but I have not had a stage floor that would not accept spike tape. I said as much and was met with Shock and Disbelief. I got mansplained to about paint and tape and hardboard.

    We had to lay a dance floor for our winter dance concert and it's time to take up the dance floor. As you may have guessed it's taped down with gaff and, sure enough, it has peeled up in my test spots. I've called my supervisor and am awaiting a response from him and, subsequently, the installers.

    I suppose my question is this: should the floor be oil tempered hardboard or is regular heat treated, which I suspect is what they've laid, robust enough? Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Additionally, any suggestions to mitigate/solve/repair this situation are more than welcome.

    Best,
    Jayvee
     
  2. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

    Messages:
    5,702
    Likes Received:
    971
    Occupation:
    Project Manager, Stagecraft Industries, Inc.
    Location:
    Portland, Or.
    I've run across bad batches of Maso before and I've always preferred Heat tempered as opposed to Oil tempered as the oil can cause issue with Latex primers. Gaff should not be peeling up paint and maso layers. Only other thing I can think of would be if there was any issue with whatever the floor was primed with and it somehow degraded the resin on the top layers of the Maso. Typically Paint will peel up paint layer applied on top of the maso but the maso itself ? rarely.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  3. jayvee

    jayvee Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    MD
    Here is a photo of my problem. It looks like the maso is coming up as well?
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Amiers

    Amiers Lighting Phoenix 1 Lamp at a Time

    Messages:
    2,317
    Likes Received:
    425
    Location:
    Phoenix, Az
    Thats rough. Who were the painters? We’re they Joe Schmo painters. Or someone that paints theaters for a living.

    I kind of want to lean on the fact that they didn’t apply it properly.
     
  5. sk8rsdad

    sk8rsdad Well-Known Member Premium Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,175
    Likes Received:
    663
    Location:
    Ottawa
    This topic was recently covered in this thread.

    @technical shared a post that gets to the crux of the issue. It comes down to the grade of the hardboard and most big box retailers aren't carrying the good grades. There are updates to his original post further down the thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
    RonHebbard and JohnD like this.
  6. jayvee

    jayvee Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    MD
    They are a company who installs stage floors for all the public schools in the area. I don't know how this hasn't come up for them before now.
     
  7. jayvee

    jayvee Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    MD
    Thanks, I had read through that. I am in the process of trying to get the paperwork from the install to see what they used. In the meantime, I should try to seal it?
     
  8. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

    Messages:
    5,702
    Likes Received:
    971
    Occupation:
    Project Manager, Stagecraft Industries, Inc.
    Location:
    Portland, Or.
    WOW! That is some crappy Masonite! But on the plus side the Paint is extremely well bonded to the floor... well the first layer of it anyway...

    If that is typical then you need to let your 'plant manager' know that it is unacceptable as a stage floor and then get the District Safety officer involved. Uneven / inconsistent surface texture is unacceptable on a dance or performance floor; turned ankles are the least of the injuries one could expect. Honestly, I would request that they remove the Masonite and replace it with 1/4" MDF.

    IMHO somebody 'bargain basement-ed' the materials on this.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  9. jayvee

    jayvee Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    MD
    Thanks, so I'm not crazy or nitpicking.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  10. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

    Messages:
    5,702
    Likes Received:
    971
    Occupation:
    Project Manager, Stagecraft Industries, Inc.
    Location:
    Portland, Or.
    In my opinion? Not at all.
     
    RickR and RonHebbard like this.
  11. JacobRothermel

    JacobRothermel Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    7
    Occupation:
    Technical Director
    Location:
    Villanova, PA
    FWiW, I'm with Van and the others whole-heartedly here. If this had been a project done "in-house" by a crew who has no experience with "what kind of masonite isn't utterly ruined by spike tape," I might be more forgiving of this issue. But this is a professional company doing, allegedly, professional work precisely in the field that should *&%[email protected]*& know better. This needs to be fixed and fixed not by someone who is not you. Painter's tape won't hold up to the foot traffic you're likely to see on a stage floor (especially during dance shows!) and their request to only use that is utterly ridiculous. Spike tape has been in use for just just exactly this kind of work for decades, and that adhesive technology has only gotten better; there's no excuse for not being able to use it now.

    Broadly speaking, not holding the company responsible for what is, in my opinion, a shoddy installation just gives them permission to do it again to another school later on (whether they meant to or not). Letting them skate just hurts potentially everyone else in your area down the road.

    Locally, specifically for you & yours, the floor you need for what you do isn't the floor you got and that needs to be rectified, regardless of whether the contractors put in what was asked for or not.

    My $0.02.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  12. jayvee

    jayvee Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    MD
    In case anyone is curious, the flooring company has apparently ordered some gaff tape to test the floor of another client to see if their floor does the same. We will proceed from there and I've been told "they will do what they need to do". As a matter of interest, they had painted one coat with PPG Breakthrough and called the paint manufacturer, who advised to not put any tape on the painted floor. Flooring company was told the formula changed to a low VOC about 5 years ago. I thanked them for the info but maintained it is probably not the paint. I am, however, glad to hear they are doing some homework. I'll update if anything exciting happens.
     
    JohnD and RonHebbard like this.
  13. MusicNinja610

    MusicNinja610 Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Jayvee, hello there I am the one who had a thread going about this for a while last year. If you'd like to email me I can pass along what I've learned. [email protected]

    Later on,
     
    jayvee likes this.
  14. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

    Messages:
    5,702
    Likes Received:
    971
    Occupation:
    Project Manager, Stagecraft Industries, Inc.
    Location:
    Portland, Or.
    My response would be, "The paint has done it's job and properly bonded to the flooring; the flooring is not properly bonded to itself."
     
  15. spenserh

    spenserh New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Chatham, Ontario
    We have the exact same issue as the OP. In our case, I can confirm that big box hardboard was used and likely the culprit.

    We got about 5 years out of our previous floor, we are about 18 months into this floor's life and I am looking for budget to do it again, properly.

    This is what we deal with every time we lay dancefloor.
    20180202_190201277_iOS.jpg
     
  16. cdub260

    cdub260 CBMod CB Mods

    Messages:
    1,302
    Likes Received:
    148
    Location:
    Southern California
    We have the same issue with the Masonite in our smaller space (Yes, it's actually old enough to be real Masonite.). The flooring is fifty or so years old and while ugly, is still strong. We just ignore it and paint over it when it starts to look too bad. The audience either doesn't notice or doesn't care.
     
  17. jayvee

    jayvee Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    MD
    The latest advice from the floor guys is to only use ProGaff, which they say was recommended by the maso manufacturer. They got some and laid a piece on my floor and have left it for a week now. They will see what happens when they pull it up. I use BMI house brand gaff, which I have learned is made by ProGaff. My spike tape is also PG. I laid strips of these next to their test spot. Super curious to see what happens next.
     
  18. FMEng

    FMEng Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    1,688
    Likes Received:
    445
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    I'd love to know how the floor guys explain why there is a solid layer of maso stuck to the underside of the peeled paint. If it were a paint bonding problem, there would be very little maso stuck to the peeled paint. The maso is coming apart because the paint is stronger than the maso. They are avoiding acknowledgement of the actual problem.

    If logic and reason fails to resolve this, call a construction materials testing lab. They could make an examination and write a report on what is happening. It would cost some money, but it would provide an impartial, expert opinion that would likely force the floor guys to face the facts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    Van, RonHebbard and Amiers like this.
  19. BillConnerFASTC

    BillConnerFASTC Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    Occupation:
    Theatre Consultant
    Location:
    Oak Park, IL (708)983-5792
    It seems they have conceded the paint is not the problem and they are trying to find a tape whose bond is less than the hardboard. I'm surprised they don't say they'll repaint and then wax the heck out of it so no tape will stick.

    The hardboard needs to be replaced - only a matter of how long and who pays.

    I have had problems with paint on plyron but - knock on wood (pun intended) - not with the actual plyron. I'll stick (another intended pun) with it.

    I am seeing some and hearing of others - stage floors with a hardwood veneered plywood - stained first and then painted. Not sure how I feel about that. Have not seen one with enough years of use to know how well they perform.
     
  20. JohnD

    JohnD Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    north central OK
    Who knew a thread about painting stage floors could be so exciting? Might I suggest @jayvee that if they continue to mansplain stuff to you, you should switch to lingo they understand. Going by the links in @sk8rsdad post #5 (referring to a post by @teqniqal ) you can explain to them that what a stage floor needs is ANSI Class 1 product with a 6000PSI modulus of rupture!!! That the junk Class 5 stuff DOESN'T work. You might also do them a big favor and explain that if they are going to mansplain something, they not only have to talk the talk, they also have to walk the walk-cliché's are so useful, don't you think.
     
    jayvee, RonHebbard and Van like this.

Share This Page