Automated Fixtures Question about adding movers to my simple setup

[blalew]

I'm working in a church that's a converted grocery store... stage is approx. 20' x 30' usable area. Hanging instruments on pipes/battens at 12' trim above stage deck, battens are hung from perlin/truss ceiling, about 3' more to roof (sprayed with black K13).

Current inventory is the following:
4 x Rosco/ET dimstrips (3phase 20A)
20 ETC S4 Zoom Jr - mostly crossed frontlight
8 ETC S4 PAR (575W) - mostly toplight

Started out with 1K NSI/Colortran 20/30/40 ERS and since swapping those out for S4 Zoom Jrs & adding some battens over the stage (and toplight with PARs) we have a lot better light & can 2fer instruments. But obviously don't have a lot to work with at this point.

We do a pretty simple white light setup for Sunday morning services and we also reconfig for a bi-yearly Christmas or Easter homegrown musical.

As far as electricity we do have an additional 3ph 20A circuit that we found in the breaker panel :^) and traced out.

So, I'd like to add some options for lighting the backline of the band - color, high sidelight, that kind of thing. I originally was thinking of going with LED PARs but to compete with our front light I figured we'd have to go with something like a COLORado 1 with wide lensing.

Then I realized for the price we could probably find used Mac 250 wash fixtures (with the wide lens?) that would consume more wattage (320W) but would be able to provide a nice top/high side light wash and would have enough output (I think). I'd like to be able to use them also to give some color to set mood (daylight vs. night) in the theatrical situations. I could fit 6 on the 208V of the 3 phase 20A circuit we have, then have 20A of 120V (for some portable dimmers I have) for backdrop lighting or something.

So I guess my question is does it make sense to get say 4 used MAC 250 wash fixtures to hang over the stage for top/high side light, and maybe a couple of MAC 250 Krypton or something to use as specials? That way I can use my conventionals as a front wash.

I have considered maybe rental first, but it seems a chunk of change wasted if I like this setup

I look forward to your comments/questions/criticisms

 

[blalew]

Geez maybe I broke a rule or something.... the silence is deafening! At least I didn't try to discuss rigging

Anyway, looking at photometric data for the Mac 250 wash w/ wide lens & frost effect applied, the beam angle is 35 & field angle is 66, and Lux @ 2m is 3000, which seems like plenty of light vs. my S4 Jr Zooms. Seems like 6 of these across the stage would function well as a toplight wash - adding a cheery yellow for "middle of the day" and cool blue/gray with less frontlight for 'night' scenes.

Am I on the right track here, or off my rocker?

 

[derekleffew]

I misread your post, and was waiting/hoping someone else would tell you MAC 250 Spots would probably make you unhappy with a 12' throw (more like 5' to a performer's head, if there's no stage elevation). Wash lights are wider and more forgiving. I've never used a 250 Wash, only the MAC 300, which I think you should consider as well.

Two questions back to you:
1) What are you planning to control these with?
2) Isn't it better to spend $100 to rent one unit to try out, rather than $4500-$10,000 (guess based on some of the vendors at Sources for Used Equipment) to buy six sight-unseen?

 

[blalew]

First, thanks for the reply. I know just enough to be dangerous & CB has been a great place for me to lurk & so forth...

About the lights - fair enough... I had looked at the MAC 300 first, actually, but VER doesn't rent them, just the 250. I am able to rent six MAC 250s for a week for about $750, so I suppose I'll just rent two... I'd like to see how they blend at the distances I'm working.

For control, I had considered using a USB/computer solution to control them (the console for our conventional stuff is an NSI 7524), but I could also rent an ETC SmartFade ML or something like that. I have downloaded the app for the SmartFade & I realize some look down on it but I'm not busking a concert, I just basically need a cue stack I think.

Thanks again.
-Blanton

PS - My thought with the MACs (vs. say PARs + colorscrollers or something) is that we don't have a huge amount of electricity or dim channels to work with, not so much for the movement ability.

 

[bishopthomas]

If you don't need movement and power is your main concern then why not look into some of the LED offerings out there? You should be able to get a pretty decent LED unit for the price of even a used Mac250.

 

[blalew]

I have looked into LED stuff quite a bit, I feel like light output isn't near the MAC 250 at the beamangles I need. Best that I've seen for output and $$/lux is Colorado 1, but it's about the same price as the used MAC 250 & can't do breakups (oops, not with a wash either), no beamshaping, and no movement. We may use them as movers on our typical Sun AM setup, I just like the options. So I think a rent is a good experiment.

My question was more is this a sane idea, are there better fixtures for this, etc

 

[Footer]

I owned 4 Mac250 Kryptons's in a space with a 22' grid and hated my life because of it. They are too expensive for what they are. If you are just looking to throw stuff into the air, you might want to look at Elation. You can buy new for the same price as a used mac and the quality is pretty good. If you are not going to be moving them around a ton, they should do you rather well.

If you are wanting something a bit more then static color wheels, the Design Spot 300 is a good way to go.

 

[blalew]

OK, sounds like the Kryptons for the specials I should reconsider, at this point it looks like I'm going to be renting two Mac 250 wash fixtures to see if they work in my space. I'll look at the Elation stuff too.

I'm hoping the idea of colored wash for the top/backlight is an idea with merit, or if I'm working with any other harebrained ideas. Thanks all

 

[xander]

If you are not looking for movement, per se, maybe check out the HES Color Command. It's kinda old school as far as intelligent lighting is concerned, but you might be able to find them used and cheap because of that. I have not looked at the specs on it, but you could, and they might give you more lumens than the LEDs. Just a thought.

-Tim

 

[blalew]

Wow, those look great - except for the beam angle. Much lighter & smaller. But they also require dimming, so maybe I could rent a 6 channel dim pack to plug into the 3ph 20A circuit. It appears to be 13/32 (beam/field) on it's 'wide' setting.
http://www.highend.com/pdfs/products/colorcommand/

Is there any way to get around the beam angle problem? It doesn't appear to take addl lensing and frost won't get me that far I suppose

 

[Dover]

I am guessing from your description that the spare circuit is running on a 3 pole breaker and you want to use 2 legs to run your movers and the third leg as a utility circuit. I would suggest that to save your self some heartache down the road that you have a electrician come in and split out the the 3 pole breaker into a double and a single, so that if somebody plugs some thing funny into that utility circuit and overloads it you won't lose all your movers too. Just my two cents.

Dover

 

[mstaylor]

I am guessing from your description that the spare circuit is running on a 3 pole breaker and you want to use 2 legs to run your movers and the third leg as a utility circuit. I would suggest that to save your self some heartache down the road that you have a electrician come in and split out the the 3 pole breaker into a double and a single, so that if somebody plugs some thing funny into that utility circuit and overloads it you won't lose all your movers too. Just my two cents.

Dover

Good call, besides unless it feeds into some type of distro you need to break it up so you don't have dissimilar devices on a triple pole.

 

[blalew]

Good call, besides unless it feeds into some type of distro you need to break it up so you don't have dissimilar devices on a triple pole.

Right-o on what I was thinking on the 3 pole 20A circuit - use two legs for 208V to movers, and have a 120V 20A utility circuit (probably for some NSI portable dimmers).

Am I right in assuming you're saying to avoid dissimilar devices b/c if I have unequal loading or loads with different types (inductive vs resistive) this will cause too much current in the neutral to flow?

Am I OK with splitting it out this way?

 

[mstaylor]

You don't want a triple pole running two different services. By simply getting an electrician to pull the triple and replace with a double for the movers and a single for the dimmers you will be fine.

 

[blalew]

This is making me think I'd like to basically move the 5 20A breakers I have out of the current panel & have them run to a subpanel at the stage and/or camlock distro to make this kind of thing easier to do. while I'm at it... I'd like a 100 more amps, please

Thanks everyone for the suggestions & help, I appreciate it a lot! Hopefully I'll report back with good news after I've seen the Mac 250s in action.

 

[blalew]

Just one more thought along the lines here...

I can't seem to find anything else that will work for me with only a 3pole 20A circuit & 12' trim above deck... besides shoehorning the MAC250 wash fixtures in there (gotta create hang positions with pipe)

Maybe I should go the "club lighting" route? A bunch of PAR38 (frontlight) + LED striplights (sides/top)? I'm worried about getting bright enough. Geez. It's frustrating

Anyone have any other bright ideas? What do you do if you have a low trim, just wait for a new building?

 

[SHARYNF]

You will need an electrician or someone qualified to look at the wiring. I am guessing that what you have is a circuit that was set up for a refrigerator compressor and you are LIKELY not to have a neutral wire to that location.
An electrician can look at the panel and the loading and probably could increase the size of the breakers, and then run new wiring to your locations.

There are panel load and limits to consider
wiring issues (as I said a 3 phase supply could be to a device with no neutral (some motors))

If you go for a distro I would look at LEX.

PowerHOUSE Portable Distribution Boxes | Lex Products

http://www.lexproducts.com/cs/entertainment_product?id=135&market=Entertainment&productLineId=21

Sharyn

 

[blalew]

Actually it's a 3 pole 5 wire so it does have a neutral. The 20A circuit in question was originally run for baptistry lights but never used.

Good to know about the distro.

I'm still lamenting the low trim - I'm also going to be demo'ing a Chauvet Batten (standard with '30 degree' lenses). Specs of the Chauvet Batten:

Luminance @1m ... 1,750 lux
Beam Angle ... 35° x 30°
Field Angle ... 62° x 60°
Power Consumption ... 58W
Weight ... 7.9lbs


Compared to the MAC 250 Wash:

Luminance @1m ... 12000 lux
Beam Angle ... 34.7°
Field Angle ... 65°
Power Consumption ... 320W
Weight ... 50.5lbs

So the LED fixture puts out about the same size wash, but uses 20% of the power, at 15% of the intensity! Since my trim is 12' and I'm doing toplight, probably the throw would be about 6', which might be about 620lux, so at the beginning of useful. Where the Mac250 would have to be toned WAAAY down at that distance.

My S4 Zoom Jr @50 degrees w/ a throw of 13' has 1369lux, so maybe these would work? Just need more of them I suppose...

 

[shiben]

Ok, so I might have missed something, but if I understand this correctly, your going to use MAC 250 Washes for the color changing abilities, not for the movement, right? Given that, do you have a budget in terms of money, or is the only problem power? Because if you have a pile of cash and not a lot of power, I would probably check out some of the other LED fixtures on the market. I highly doubt that the chauvet fixtures will be bright enough... Maybe take a look at the Seachanger Nemos (SeaChanger). They have them in profile and wash setups, and I think these might be more your style. About half the wattage of a typical Source 4 (320W v. 750W), you can fit a pile of them onto a 20A line (7, actually), and from what I have heard the only real big drawback is that they dont have the best dimming system (see the article in a recent LSA). Additionally, if beam angle is a problem, you can get regular seachanger washes with up to 70º field angles, so that might take care of some of your trim issue, and still put 3-4 units onto one circuit. It seems that instead of buying a moving light, go with something that is a bit more solid and just does what you need it to do. Not sure about the cost, but it might save you some cash as well.

 

[blalew]

Wow, now that's a fixture! Amazing. Well, we don't have a lot of cash, which is why I'm thinking used MAC 250 wash. Also, once the theatrical production is done I'd love to use them for other things.

Given that the Seachanger costs $1500 it probably won't save much. But I'll look into renting the wash fixture. But that'll require some dimming...

I guess the thing that I've learned most about this exercise - there's absolutely NO substitute for trim height!! Seems that bars/clubs (commonly have low trim) go for a different look that lends itself to using less fixtures or more extreme angles & less light in general.