LightingPenguin
Active Member
That is a great loss, and we should all take a moment to mourn the loss of that Steinway.
Riding an A-Frame Extension Ladder
- Thread starterCharc
- Start date
That is a great loss, and we should all take a moment to mourn the loss of that Steinway.
So, I had a chat with a friend of mine who is a licensed electrician and an OSHA job-site inspector. I actually only got into the discussion because I noticed a newsletter from his employer that talked about scaffolds and fall protection. So, here are some of the things that I learned, and understand that they may only apply to this state and possibly some of the surrounding states as I know that he does work in them as well.
First off, he says that [to the best of his knowledge] the OSHA regulations cover EVERYONE, even the students who work for the theatre department at the University. If a student gets injured working in the theatre, the University will be the liable party, and the university is responsible for creating a safe workplace. So, you ay actually want to check your local regulations before you assume that OSHA doesn't apply to you.
Next thing we talked about is regular A-frame ladders and regular extension ladders. Regulations state that when working on these ladders your belt buckle (the centerline of your body) must remain between the rails of the ladder, and you may never have your feet on the two two rungs. So, if you ever have worked on the "not-a-step" or you regularly lean out to reach that next light you are in violation of OSHA regulations.
Ladders may be on casters supplied by the manufacturer as long as the casters are lockable and locked whenever someone is on the ladder.
There is also this interesting piece of information with regards to any and all ladders used in the workplace. This may have been mentioned before, but here it is again. Any ladder where the manufacturers labels and stickers have been removed, destroyed, or otherwise made illegible is NOT safe for use. Even that little 6' ladder that your painters use, if any of the labels have been painted over, even by accident, then the ladder is NOT safe for use. If one of those stickers started peeling off and got caught on something and was removed as you were moving the ladder around, it is no longer safe for use. Using a ladder missing any of the manufacturers labels is a violation of OSHA regulations.
Here is the real killer, scaffolding. Scaffolding must be setup by a qualified individual. This individual is responsible for making sure that the scaffold is safe for use. Any scaffolding that is left assembled from one day to the next has to be checked every day by a qualified individual to make sure that it is still safe for use. So, while anyone and their mothers can buy a scaffold online and figure out how to set it up, it does not make them qualified to do so. If you have been trained in the proper setup and safety checking methods for the scaffold you own or intend to buy then you are fine, but if no one else in your facility has this training then you are the only person who can setup and deem the scaffold safe for use each day. Also, even if you are trained and qualified to perform these tasks, you are not necessarily qualified to train someone else, and if you delegate responsibility to an unqualified person you may be liable for any accidents.
Then there is the whole issue with fall protection, which it seems most theatres don't pay attention to at all, and i don't remember all the specifics of, so I am not even going to attempt the discussion.
So what is the point of all this? First of all, SAFETY FIRST and SAFETY LAST! I am sure that we currently do, have done, and will do things that organizations like OSHA deem unsafe. I am sure that we all currently do, have done, and will do these thing because no matter how much we believe and try to practice all the best safe practices, the idea that "the show must go on" is too deeply rooted in every entertainment technician. This does NOT mean you can just throw safety out the window. Do people not follow all the regulations? Yes, even in the industries that OSHA watches like hawks. does it mean that you can or should? No, you need to be safe. Does it mean that you probably will? Yup.
What else does this all mean? Well, to all of you who use and recommend scaffolding (even by giving a "+1 for that" or "what ^ he said"), please make sure that you are following the regulations for use before you tell other people that they are not following regulations for use of the gear that they own. I mean no attacks or offense to anyone, only that you look at the practices that you employ and the equipment that you are using before you go blowing the whistle on others.
First off, he says that [to the best of his knowledge] the OSHA regulations cover EVERYONE, even the students who work for the theatre department at the University. If a student gets injured working in the theatre, the University will be the liable party, and the university is responsible for creating a safe workplace. So, you ay actually want to check your local regulations before you assume that OSHA doesn't apply to you.
Next thing we talked about is regular A-frame ladders and regular extension ladders. Regulations state that when working on these ladders your belt buckle (the centerline of your body) must remain between the rails of the ladder, and you may never have your feet on the two two rungs. So, if you ever have worked on the "not-a-step" or you regularly lean out to reach that next light you are in violation of OSHA regulations.
Ladders may be on casters supplied by the manufacturer as long as the casters are lockable and locked whenever someone is on the ladder.
There is also this interesting piece of information with regards to any and all ladders used in the workplace. This may have been mentioned before, but here it is again. Any ladder where the manufacturers labels and stickers have been removed, destroyed, or otherwise made illegible is NOT safe for use. Even that little 6' ladder that your painters use, if any of the labels have been painted over, even by accident, then the ladder is NOT safe for use. If one of those stickers started peeling off and got caught on something and was removed as you were moving the ladder around, it is no longer safe for use. Using a ladder missing any of the manufacturers labels is a violation of OSHA regulations.
Here is the real killer, scaffolding. Scaffolding must be setup by a qualified individual. This individual is responsible for making sure that the scaffold is safe for use. Any scaffolding that is left assembled from one day to the next has to be checked every day by a qualified individual to make sure that it is still safe for use. So, while anyone and their mothers can buy a scaffold online and figure out how to set it up, it does not make them qualified to do so. If you have been trained in the proper setup and safety checking methods for the scaffold you own or intend to buy then you are fine, but if no one else in your facility has this training then you are the only person who can setup and deem the scaffold safe for use each day. Also, even if you are trained and qualified to perform these tasks, you are not necessarily qualified to train someone else, and if you delegate responsibility to an unqualified person you may be liable for any accidents.
Then there is the whole issue with fall protection, which it seems most theatres don't pay attention to at all, and i don't remember all the specifics of, so I am not even going to attempt the discussion.
So what is the point of all this? First of all, SAFETY FIRST and SAFETY LAST! I am sure that we currently do, have done, and will do things that organizations like OSHA deem unsafe. I am sure that we all currently do, have done, and will do these thing because no matter how much we believe and try to practice all the best safe practices, the idea that "the show must go on" is too deeply rooted in every entertainment technician. This does NOT mean you can just throw safety out the window. Do people not follow all the regulations? Yes, even in the industries that OSHA watches like hawks. does it mean that you can or should? No, you need to be safe. Does it mean that you probably will? Yup.
What else does this all mean? Well, to all of you who use and recommend scaffolding (even by giving a "+1 for that" or "what ^ he said"), please make sure that you are following the regulations for use before you tell other people that they are not following regulations for use of the gear that they own. I mean no attacks or offense to anyone, only that you look at the practices that you employ and the equipment that you are using before you go blowing the whistle on others.
JChenault
Well-Known Member
And herein lies some of my frustration with these kinds of discussions. How does one become a 'qualified scaffold setter upper'. Or a qualified electrician ( to rewire a PAR can from another thread ), or a qualified anything?
If I go to a doctor I am confident that she has passed professional boards and accreditations. There are diplomas on the office walls. If I go to an Architect or structural engineer, I am confident that they have demonstrated a minimum level of knowledge of their craft. There are generally recognized standards for these professions.
There is not ( as far as I know ) generally recognized standards for 'Scaffold setter upper' or 'Theatrical Par re-wirer electrician' or 'Fly rail operator' or 'Person who can fly people'. There are beginning to be standards for theatre electricians and riggers - but these are voluntary and have no real teeth as yet.
It is vitally important for us to stress qualifications and safety - but to simply say 'hire a qualified person' kind of begs the question - how do you judge the qualifications. If someone wants to become qualified what is the path to that qualification.
My point - in our industry, at this time, qualifications are still a bit fuzzy. We need to find a way to deal with this instead of pretending that it is a clear black and white situation.
Just my two cents.
A few notes regarding icewolf’s post:
1. The US OSH law and regulations are specifically applicable only to private industry employees and employers. If you are not in that category, then US OSH cannot help you. There may be State laws and regulations that include you, but don’t count on it. OSHA is a labor law, not an environmental law or a public health law.
If you are a student, I would expect that either some legal standard of safety, school policy, or “mission statement” protects you (Maybe the state Department of Education laws and regulations provide for a safe environment for students). (If you are a student paid by a private school or paid by a public school in a State where public employees are covered under OSHA, then I think you are covered by OSHA.) If you are a volunteer (that is, no compensation), you are not an employee and you are on your own. But make no mistake, Safety First. The law is there to protect you from others, but it can’t directly protect you from yourself.
Below are excerpts from 29 Code of Federal Regulations:
1910.5(a)
Applicability of standards.
Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, the standards contained in this part shall apply with respect to employments performed in a workplace in a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, Wake Island, Outer Continental Shelf lands defined in the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, Johnston Island, and the Canal Zone.
Definitions
1910.2(c)
"Employer" means a person engaged in a business affecting commerce who has employees, but does not include the United States or any State or political subdivision of a State;
1910.2(d)
"Employee" means an employee of an employer who is employed in a business of his employer which affects commerce;
[Actually 1910.2(d) has got to be one of the worst definitions that I have ever seen in a regulation.]
2. For the scaffold construction, I believe the term is “competent person”. (This is a term used frequently in the OSHA regulations.) The term is defined as needed in each OSHA subpart, but the definition is usually general (see below). For example, years of experience or schooling or level of education may not necessarily be defined. (There is a separate definition for “qualified” and from what I can tell that applies to the design of the scaffolding components.)
Under 1926 Subpart L - Scaffolds
1926.450 - Scope, application and definitions applicable to this subpart.
1926.450(b)
“Competent person" means one who is capable of identifying existing and predictable hazards in the surroundings or working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to employees, and who has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them.
Joe
1. The US OSH law and regulations are specifically applicable only to private industry employees and employers. If you are not in that category, then US OSH cannot help you. There may be State laws and regulations that include you, but don’t count on it. OSHA is a labor law, not an environmental law or a public health law.
If you are a student, I would expect that either some legal standard of safety, school policy, or “mission statement” protects you (Maybe the state Department of Education laws and regulations provide for a safe environment for students). (If you are a student paid by a private school or paid by a public school in a State where public employees are covered under OSHA, then I think you are covered by OSHA.) If you are a volunteer (that is, no compensation), you are not an employee and you are on your own. But make no mistake, Safety First. The law is there to protect you from others, but it can’t directly protect you from yourself.
Below are excerpts from 29 Code of Federal Regulations:
1910.5(a)
Applicability of standards.
Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, the standards contained in this part shall apply with respect to employments performed in a workplace in a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, Wake Island, Outer Continental Shelf lands defined in the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, Johnston Island, and the Canal Zone.
Definitions
1910.2(c)
"Employer" means a person engaged in a business affecting commerce who has employees, but does not include the United States or any State or political subdivision of a State;
1910.2(d)
"Employee" means an employee of an employer who is employed in a business of his employer which affects commerce;
[Actually 1910.2(d) has got to be one of the worst definitions that I have ever seen in a regulation.]
2. For the scaffold construction, I believe the term is “competent person”. (This is a term used frequently in the OSHA regulations.) The term is defined as needed in each OSHA subpart, but the definition is usually general (see below). For example, years of experience or schooling or level of education may not necessarily be defined. (There is a separate definition for “qualified” and from what I can tell that applies to the design of the scaffolding components.)
Under 1926 Subpart L - Scaffolds
1926.450 - Scope, application and definitions applicable to this subpart.
1926.450(b)
“Competent person" means one who is capable of identifying existing and predictable hazards in the surroundings or working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to employees, and who has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them.
Joe
Joe, thanks for clarifying, as I stated at the beginning of my post, the discussion I had with my friend may only be applicable to the state of Utah, and he may have been telling me about local regulations. Which proves why you need to look up your local codes and regulations and not just go by what you read online!
I am not trying to make light of the seriousness of safety BUT
can you imagine OSHA dealing with School Sports: Football? Baseball Track and Field. BOXING?????? Riding a Bicycle or a Motorcycle?
I did check with the manufacture of one of the Trestle ladders we use, and it is legal to stand on the center up portion, but not on the top 4 rungs, and it is proper and legal to sit on the top of the lower ladder top
Sharyn
can you imagine OSHA dealing with School Sports: Football? Baseball Track and Field. BOXING?????? Riding a Bicycle or a Motorcycle?
I did check with the manufacture of one of the Trestle ladders we use, and it is legal to stand on the center up portion, but not on the top 4 rungs, and it is proper and legal to sit on the top of the lower ladder top
Sharyn
I agree that "qualified" needs to be defined in this industry.
While ETCP Electrician and Rigger (Arena / Theatre) is a good start, what qualifies someone for the lesser stuff? Maybe I don't need to know about electrical theory, I just need a new PAR64 socket. What qualifies you for that?
Is the answer that we create a tier of test-based qualifications? ETCP Electrician 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? In our litigious society, who could blame us? We need some sort of paper document to prove it, right? So a phone call to a previous employer is no good anymore? Or can we not trust the PM to know wether or not the ME was fixing this appropriately?
These are some serious questions for the industry to ask itself.
It could also be that these questions are an abstraction of the interwebs. When we do not know who we are talking to, we are like to take a more conservative approach, to cover our individual and collective asses. Once in the light shop, information moves more freely and one is likely to receive OTJ training.
OSHA regs are a frustrating thing. I was inspected years ago while constructing a Mountain Stage, which is esentially a big scaffolding. We had a safety policy in place, all climbers used rock belts for positioning but no fall protection. The inspector wasn't sure if we were compliant or not. My question was if she didn't know how are we supposed to know. The response was we were required to know. She kicked it up the line and it was determined we were scaffold erectors so were not required to use any fall protection because you can't safety to a nonpermanent structure.
Fast forward 6 years and I again get inspected building the same type stage. This idiot says we have to be in full body harnesses with double lanyards so we are attached 100% of the time. I explained that that type of protection requires 17 to 18 feet of clear drop which is impossible on a scaffold. We still got fined. I talked to the safety company that we keep under contact and he said this guy was the only inspector he can't get along with in the four state area he covers.
I currently am certified to to teach fork lift and man lift certification. I also am a competantly trained person. I also install permanent fall arrest systems.
Fast forward 6 years and I again get inspected building the same type stage. This idiot says we have to be in full body harnesses with double lanyards so we are attached 100% of the time. I explained that that type of protection requires 17 to 18 feet of clear drop which is impossible on a scaffold. We still got fined. I talked to the safety company that we keep under contact and he said this guy was the only inspector he can't get along with in the four state area he covers.
I currently am certified to to teach fork lift and man lift certification. I also am a competantly trained person. I also install permanent fall arrest systems.
Which, of course, eliminates the use that was suggested at the start of this thread.
-Fred
masterelectrician2112
Active Member
I made mention of Sports in schools in regards to safety
this article makes for interesting reading
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/sports/ncaafootball/22concussions.html?hp
Sharyn
this article makes for interesting reading
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/sports/ncaafootball/22concussions.html?hp
Sharyn
There is a basic premise that keeps coming up in this thread that bothers me. Some posts make it sound like OSHA is the restrictive enemy and people are trying to find ways to bend the OSHA rules. Other posts make it sound like people are thinking, if OSHA doesn't specifically say it's wrong I can do it. Finally there are posts that sound like people are saying if my supervisor says I can do it, he is the one responsible to deal with OSHA and I can go ahead do my work. People YOU need to be responsible for YOUR safety. I don't care what OSHA says and who it applies to. I don't care what your boss or co-workers say or do.
There is no prize for being the guy who get's killed on the job, so that the show can go on. Buy your own harness and use it. Take a class, at your own expense if you must, and learn how to use fall protection properly. Refuse to climb dangerous ladders. Refuse to be pushed around on top of devices that are not designed to be used that way. Become your own expert and keep yourself alive.
How sad would it be for my two little boys to grow up hearing, "Your Dad was a good man, I wish you could have known him. He always got the focus done on time."
There is no prize for being the guy who get's killed on the job, so that the show can go on. Buy your own harness and use it. Take a class, at your own expense if you must, and learn how to use fall protection properly. Refuse to climb dangerous ladders. Refuse to be pushed around on top of devices that are not designed to be used that way. Become your own expert and keep yourself alive.
How sad would it be for my two little boys to grow up hearing, "Your Dad was a good man, I wish you could have known him. He always got the focus done on time."
Yeah, it's totally against OSHA to straddle a ladder top, but OSHA didn't bother to actually ask the professionals who use A-Frame ladders in their work. Straddling the ladder top is the only way to safely use both hands, and often the only way to safely get the job done is to use both hands.
As near as I can tell, OSHA regulations are designed so that a worker can lose consciousness at any point and they will be minimally injured. A nice idea, but like many "nice ideas" the OSHA regs meet with mixed success in the real world.
All that said, Gafftaper is right, you must watch out for your own safety. I know more then one person who has gone over in an improperly used Genie lift (needed reconstructive surgery) or bad ladder (walks with a cane at age 27).
As near as I can tell, OSHA regulations are designed so that a worker can lose consciousness at any point and they will be minimally injured. A nice idea, but like many "nice ideas" the OSHA regs meet with mixed success in the real world.
All that said, Gafftaper is right, you must watch out for your own safety. I know more then one person who has gone over in an improperly used Genie lift (needed reconstructive surgery) or bad ladder (walks with a cane at age 27).
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But that's just not true. There are many other devices that are designed to safely allow you to work with both hands. The only reason these things are still in use is our own Macho, "the show must go on and I'll risk my life to make it happen" attitudes. I'm convinced that even in the smallest community theaters with tiny budgets if you went in to the board of directors and told them "I'm not hanging another light until everyone in the room climbs up that ladder and tries it for them self". They would be horrified to find out what you do and you would have a new scaffold by the end of the week. They don't want you risking your life to hang lights for every show. They don't want that liability. They definitely don't want to be shut down by a multi-million dollar law suit after you die, especially when there are reasonably priced solutions. The vast majority of these people have no idea the danger that is involved in our work. Why don't they know? It's our fault by trying to live up to our own, "I'll do anything to make sure the show looks good", Ninja Code of conduct.
Wait, so in your world worker safety is just a "nice idea"? Well gravity isn't just a nice idea. It's the Law!
Is it better for a technician to die than for a production to have blotchy lighting? Listen to what you are saying. The show is not worth risking your life.I know there are all kinds of crazy situations out there. But there isn't a theater in the world that can't squeeze a few bucks a show into the safety fund and buy a safe alternative in a year or two. It's a matter of us saying enough is enough, educating management that the danger exists, and insisting that something be done about it soon.
shiben
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with gaff on the management thing. Especially at schools, get the principal or someone out on the ladder, your going to have a new system in a few days. The fact is, people who control the budget, especially for smaller productions that dont have unions telling them what they need to get, dont really know what your doing, and even if they see you doing it, they probably dont realize how unsafe it is. Riding an A-Frame while straddling it looks ok from the ground, if the Aframe is reasonably solid, but once your up in the air, its a whole different ballgame, and you quickly realize how perilous your situation actually is. Let them find this out, and most administrators will come down and ask what they need to get. I recently purchased a fall protection harness (its on the way), and am looking into local classes in the west michigan area on how to use it, along with other fall protection devices and practices. I decided that I would really rather have someone laugh a bit than fall and die or be walking with a cane at 21. Its just not worth it for anyone, and if it helps students, you have 3/4 of your life left to live. I know I want to not have chronic pain and potentially crippling injuries at this point. I doubt most people do. Thats my reasoning. As for OSHA, its guidelines to follow, and good practice to do so. But the final judgement on things not covered needs to be you.
I think you misunderstand me Gafftaper, perhaps I used poor phrasing. The fact that OSHA has regulated all the way up to spontaneous loss of consciousness is a "nice idea" that doesn't work in real life. Because OSHA has over-regulated then even their very good regulations are met with less respect. The discussion about straddling a ladder is a perfect example, it is much safer and more stable to step over the top then it is to stand the requisite two rungs down and stretch to try to change a lamp with one hand. Sure a scaffold would be great but that doesn't work when you are 10 min to house open. It is situations like that where OSHA has over-regulated. That over-regulation is why so many people treat OSHA as an obsticale rather then an ally.
Shiben offers another good example of the difference between OSHA and safety. The OSHA regs don't require fall protection on portable ladders, but Shiben obviously feels that it is needed in that situation.
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