Mmnnnn what color changing side light should I buy ???

[Jonverse]

Hey, I maybe have some significant money to spend in the summer and one problem area we have highlighted is the manual changing of boom color between dance pieces. At times we don't have the people or time to do this without ruining the flow of the show. We currently have no automated lighting in our theater, aside from a couple of i-cues, just a bucket load of source 4 leckos and pars.

I have been thinking about what color changing gizmo to go for...... I have used scrollers before and appreciate their bang for buck but don't like fan noise, maintenance issues and consumable gels..... I still would be persuaded though.

I like the idea of LEDS.... we have some color blast TRs in our studio and they are fab for an old workhorse. I know LEDs are expensive (reveal) and have been tempted to put the color blasts on the booms for a laugh to see how well they work (with a clear lens and some frost gel in front to get the correct spill ) My friend just put small seladors on his booms alongside his conventionals he say's it works great as mids....

Also looking at seachangers although I would not have enough money to fully complete our boom system.....but can get close. Like the idea of those but they are pricey....

I also maybe would like to color change our overhead/backlight which is not currently so whatever is left after booms can be picked up there, again undecided what to put up overhead......?

mmmnnnn what should I go for.....?? just confused now, think I need help and this seems a great place to start. Thanks in advance !

 

[erosing]

How much money are you looking at spending?

 

[SteveB]

First question is - Who the LD ?.

Visiting ? or in-house ?. Are you needing to match colors to what a visiting dance companies plot requires ?, or is it all in-house design ?.

Sea Changers Tungsten Profile seemingly might be the best choice, but will the color mixing match an LD's choice ?, and do you have time to play Match The Gel ?.

Wybron CXI is another choice, possibly easier to match colors, easier to add to existing units and more readily swappable, but has a fan. Ask though whether fan noise is an issue with fixtures in the wings ?. How many audio pick up devices are generally placed nearby that might P/U the fan noise ?.

As to LED's, is anyone making a LED Profile/Ellipsoidal type spotlight, other then the prototype Juliat ?, whose Aledin Profile only uses LED's for power efficiancy and does not do any color mixing with them, so would you desire/need something with template projection capability and shutters ?.

Also what console ?.

 

[MarshallPope]

For a little less money, have you looked at the older 3x575W Elation Stagecolors? We have several of these that we use for sidelighting occasionally, and they work fine for our purposes. It looks like the going price is just under $500 each now.

 

[BillESC]

The 420BI might just be the solution. It's a 40" strip with 60 one watt diodes, 12 each, red, green, blue, amber and white.

There's one each side of this bands setup.

 

[Jonverse]

Thanks for the comments so far,
We generally do in house with visiting designers who have to work with what we have got so time and flexibility is there.
We have a strand 520i currently but will get an ION at some point - the strand sometimes loses it and goes into dos mode (italian of all languages) which is a strange unnerving querk ! - shame as I love that consol.....
Yeah understand about LED situation currently was just thinking of mixing them in with conventionals....
Ahhhhh still unsure, also need to figure out backlight color changing also.....

 

[Grog12]

The 420BI might just be the solution. It's a 40" strip with 60 one watt diodes, 12 each, red, green, blue, amber and white.

It certainly is a choice, but a rather limiting one as you'd take your boom and make what's generally at least 3 positions (head mid shin) just one. Using any sort of "mini-strip" also really makes it hard to get a precise focus.

(Granted I just used 2 on booms in my last show of the season, but they weren't primary dancer light)

 

[shiben]

It certainly is a choice, but a rather limiting one as you'd take your boom and make what's generally at least 3 positions (head mid shin) just one. Using any sort of "mini-strip" also really makes it hard to get a precise focus.

(Granted I just used 2 on booms in my last show of the season, but they weren't primary dancer light)

Not if you put them at like 8' off the deck hung parallel to the deck using a pipe and some hardware or 2 booms. I would think the big issue there would be that they are only really good for washing the stage, no tight focus for them.

 

[Footer]

Not if you put them at like 8' off the deck hung parallel to the deck using a pipe and some hardware or 2 booms. I would think the big issue there would be that they are only really good for washing the stage, no tight focus for them.

The whole point of a boom is to lift the form of the performer, shins especially. I will do anything possible to get my shins as close to the floor as possible, removing a shutter if necessary. LED's don't really fit the bill for these positions unless they are in a focusable housing with framing shutters. The best thing about boom positions is that you can put light onstage and keep it off everything in the theatre except for the talent onstage. An LED is going to spill onto the cyc, scrim, floor, and house. I have used zip strips on a boom but they existed alongside standard head/mid/shin. It works for throwing color out there but does little to reveal the form. You might as well just hang parcans on the booms.

Until someone releases an afordable LED unit with framing shutters, your stuck with a S4. A seachanger would be a good place to start go. I am not a fan of scroller on boom positions because you can't get the shin close enough to the ground with a scroller on the unit. Also, they take some serious abuse.

 

[shiben]

The whole point of a boom is to lift the form of the performer, shins especially. I will do anything possible to get my shins as close to the floor as possible, removing a shutter if necessary. LED's don't really fit the bill for these positions unless they are in a focusable housing with framing shutters. The best thing about boom positions is that you can put light onstage and keep it off everything in the theatre except for the talent onstage. An LED is going to spill onto the cyc, scrim, floor, and house. I have used zip strips on a boom but they existed alongside standard head/mid/shin. It works for throwing color out there but does little to reveal the form. You might as well just hang parcans on the booms.

Until someone releases an afordable LED unit with framing shutters, your stuck with a S4. A seachanger would be a good place to start go. I am not a fan of scroller on boom positions because you can't get the shin close enough to the ground with a scroller on the unit. Also, they take some serious abuse.

I didnt realize we were only worried about shins here. If thats the case, then I agree with you on that issue. I was just figuring if you needed a color changing side light for washing the performers with color from the side, an LED strip at 8' would probably be ok.

 

[SteveB]

Thanks for the comments so far,

Ahhhhh still unsure, also need to figure out backlight color changing also.....

As add'l comment:

I'm currently awaiting word on the recommendation/proposal for 32 Wybron CXI's for my back light washes on my overhead electrics. This is also a Dance oriented plot, also with flying side ladders and side towers.

As I do a lot of other stuff besides dance, and as such, I only use the 7ft. high/4 unit dance lighting towers for about 8-12 shows per years, so it's a no-brainer to put the color changing capability overhead.

Thus one thought I had was, are you ever needing to fly in over head electrics for color changes ?, between pieces, or days with shows in rep. ?. My thought was that's it's pretty easy, cheap and fast to change boom color on a color change, but a PITA to fly in overheads and would the LD's make better use of that capability on the electrics ?.

One thought would be to check out 2 spaces in NYC - City Center Theater and The Joyce Theater. City Center is heavily used as dance venues, while the Joyce is primarily a dance house. A quick look at the Joyce stage spec's shows the Joyce with no scrollers or ML's, bu that may well be a budgeting issue, though they have an extensive conventional inventory. City Center has 30 odd Clay Paky ML's, wash and spot for overhead specials and I know they bring in VL1000's as re-usable specials for events. Neither seemingly use scrollers or such on there side positions.

 

[blalew]

I know nothing about nothing here but what about High End Color Commands? Not an ERS, but LOTS of output, beam/field @ 8.2/18 degrees, 750W, no gels to swap.

 

[Grog12]

I didnt realize we were only worried about shins here. If thats the case, then I agree with you on that issue. I was just figuring if you needed a color changing side light for washing the performers with color from the side, an LED strip at 8' would probably be ok.

We're not.

All 3 posistions on a boom are meant to do one thing:

. reveal the form.

Those 3 words are the most important thing about dance lighting. Everything in the dance world is about revealing form from costumes to set choices to lighting choices.

Eating up your entire boom with 1 light takes away control.

Would I use them as backlight? In a heart beat. But as side light you start losing a lot of control no matter how you try to hang them.

 

[Grog12]

I will do anything possible to get my shins as close to the floor as possible, removing a shutter if necessary. .

City Theatrical Beam Bender

 

[blalew]

The City Theatrical beam bender is pretty nifty.

I'd like to ask, just for my own selfish learning - why wouldn't the Color Commands work here? Does the fact that it's not an ERS rule it out (no shuttering off borders, etc)? Just curious, not trying to hijack the thread

 

[JChenault]

I echo what others have said re an ERS vs LED. IMHO for side light you really want to have the control of an ERS.

As to how to change color. I see two broad categories. One is a conventional scroller. The other is some kind of CMY ( or CMYG) mixing.

I have some Morpheus S-faders ( CMY) that I got used for side light in my theatre and have discovered some disadvantages to them that may be of interest to the discussion.

1 - Getting the color you want is more difficult than you might think. I use a software product to help me pick the colors from a palette - and the choices are close to the Rosco / Gam / Lee etc colors - but not exact. Part of that is the fact that to a sheet of color has a lot more flexibility than just subtracting out CMY. IE you can get colors that are just not repeatable in CMY - especially when we are talking about colored fabrics, sets, etc.

2 - The color is not entirely even. There is a slight gradation as you move along the beam of light in your color. Not usually an issue but sometimes anoying. I have see some older, but well maintained Wybron Nexera units that have this problem to a greater extent.



Now - all of that said I like the flexibility that the color mixing gives me. If you end up with a CMY mixing solution you will probably want to get some kind of product to help you pick colors ( especially if you want to match as closely as possible other gels you have).

 

[Jonverse]

Thanks, my friend just recommended to me the Morpheus color fader 3 for top light as I do need to be able to live mix color during dance which you cannot do with a CXI Scroller Products - Morpheus Lights


I still like the idea of seachangers for booms but am going to have to get very creative with the finances to make this all happen and still want to experiment this summer with color blasts on the booms....!

 

[JChenault]

and still want to experiment this summer with color blasts on the booms....!

I would be very surprised if the color blasts give you enough intensity in non-saturated colors. ( and moderately surprised of they give you intensity in more saturated colors). They just are not that bright compared to conventional fixtures.

Let us know what you find out.

 

[Grog12]

blalew,

My original point isn't Conventional vs LED.

In fact I'd love to give the Aledin a shot on my booms. Hell if I was in a pinch and had 24 Pixel PAR's laying around I'd use those as well.

My original beef is with trying to use a mini-strip device as a boom light. I don't care if its LED or and Altman MR-16. You're losing the control afforded by different angles.

An instrument hung at Head High looks a lot different on the body than one hung at the shin/kick level.

Would I, as Footer commented earlier, hang 8 extra booms with ministrips for blasting color in addition to true dance booms? In a heart beat. But I would never give up the control of 3-4 lights and different angles on a boom.

All that being said my order of preference for lights to hang on a boom would be ERS (always first always more control), PAR (lose some control but its oval shape can help keep it from spilling on legs), anything else.

 

[SteveB]

Thanks, my friend just recommended to me the Morpheus color fader 3 for top light as I do need to be able to live mix color during dance which you cannot do with a CXI Scroller Products - Morpheus Lights


I still like the idea of seachangers for booms but am going to have to get very creative with the finances to make this all happen and still want to experiment this summer with color blasts on the booms....!

Note that the linked Morpheus site refers to live color mixing of the Morpheus vs. a conventional scroller, and it's reference to the "2 scroll" system seemingly is stating that a 3 scroll system has less issues about unwanted colors, which I don't buy into as a concept.

As comment, changing colors live in any mixing system, is problematic and needs to be programmed carefully with any CMY type mixing system. Getting from a simple yellow to an amber might be easy and not objectionable from a design perspective, while going to deep blue might take the scrolls and/or dichroic flags thru objectionable colors along the way. Console choice helps here as on some you can do a change as a multi-step cue and set the path the device takes to make the move more or less objectionable. The best solution is a 2nd color scroll set that to do simple intensity fades, or at least that's been my experience, with a CXI device and with older CMY mixing on a Studio Spot.

Anybody with more experience at this, please chime in, as I'm still learning.