Stage Floor Replacement
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DramaTeach
Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor
Personally, I prefer hardwood flooring. Sure, you end up with issues from time to time, but if treated right (stained, not painted), I find it superior. Depending on what your additional events are, many musicians will also prefer the hardwood for its accoustic properties. I don't like how hardboard deteriorates, no matter how inexpensive it is to replace.
I look at it like the difference between a KIA and a BMW. Sure the KIA is cheap and does essentially the same job, but it will most likely have more parts to replace and will have a shorter life than the BMW. With the BMW, you will want to drive it a little easier because of your initial investment, but treat it right and it will last a lifetime.
Personally, I prefer hardwood flooring. Sure, you end up with issues from time to time, but if treated right (stained, not painted), I find it superior. Depending on what your additional events are, many musicians will also prefer the hardwood for its accoustic properties. I don't like how hardboard deteriorates, no matter how inexpensive it is to replace.
I look at it like the difference between a KIA and a BMW. Sure the KIA is cheap and does essentially the same job, but it will most likely have more parts to replace and will have a shorter life than the BMW. With the BMW, you will want to drive it a little easier because of your initial investment, but treat it right and it will last a lifetime.
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor
I see it as the difference between a KIA and a BMW too, but I go with the KIA. Sure, if you treat it right the BMW will last forever, but if you want to be able to throw tools in the trunk, occasionally cram some lumber inside, park in sketchy parts of town, and not go broke in the process, the KIA is the better option. We paint our floor. We screw scenery to the floor. Drill holes for cane bolts, tap dance, tape and otherwise abuse the floor. And we know that we can replace that top layer when it gets bad without it being a giant construction project. Most of the time another coat of matte black paint is all that's needed.
I see it as the difference between a KIA and a BMW too, but I go with the KIA. Sure, if you treat it right the BMW will last forever, but if you want to be able to throw tools in the trunk, occasionally cram some lumber inside, park in sketchy parts of town, and not go broke in the process, the KIA is the better option. We paint our floor. We screw scenery to the floor. Drill holes for cane bolts, tap dance, tape and otherwise abuse the floor. And we know that we can replace that top layer when it gets bad without it being a giant construction project. Most of the time another coat of matte black paint is all that's needed.
teqniqal
Well-Known Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor
One of the most important questions to ask / research, is how the original floor was constructed. If it was fairly recent, then the original Architectural plans should show a detail and / or have a written specification. This will show / tell you if the floor was sprung (good) or if it was just laid on top of the concrete (bad).
If the building documents are not available, then you can sometimes find a place on the stage where there is a floor box cover or other element that can be removed to let you see down in a crack how many layers of whatever are there. If all else fails, investing the time and money to do an exploratory demolition of a small area is a worthwhile effort. You have to know what you are starting with.
If the floor is sprung, then the issue of just adding a sacrificial top skin is fairly easily resolved, however, if the floor is not sprung, then it would be irresponsible to cover-up 'wrong' with a fresh layer of 'wrong'. Injuries to performers due to working on hard (unsprung) floors is a well-documented issue, and to ignore this fact could expose the school to future litigation should injuries occur.
The necessity of springing the floor is not too dissimilar from the justification for providing sprung floor in gymnasiums (albeit, the spring characteristics are NOT the same for sports and dancing / acting). The injuries to joints and bones are commonly discussed throughout the industry, however, dancers will tell you that the constant pounding of your jaws during repeated vertical motion can clatter your teeth together and chip or wear the enamel veneer off of them - a sprung floor can provide a significant reduction of pain in this area.
Another good argument against hardwood floors is that they are prone to developing grooves from heavy point-loads being rolled / dragged across them. These grooves can develop broken wood edges that can introduce very long splinters into dancers feet and other body parts that might slide across the floor (Yikes! That hurts just writing that sentence!). A hardwood floor requires much more vigilance (maintenance) to keep them safe from splintering.
The available space between the supporting structure and the finished floor level may significantly influence the type of materials required to achieve the necessary resiliency.
Also to be noted is that current building codes are very specific about the chemical make-up of the construction materials (i.e. components containing carcinogens) and the fire retardancy of the materials used for anything that is on the stage (you should be familiar with the Iroquois Theatre Fire and how this has affected the NFPA 101 Life Safety Code). Furthermore, adding level changes that may create impediments to the movement of people and equipment is also affected by the ADA requirements in the building code.
The actual construction may, or may not, be something that you can do yourself, however, the design of the proper solution may be outside of the scope of your job responsibilities. In fact, this level of construction may even require that the documents be prepared by a licensed Architect (whom we would all hope would seek the assistance of someone qualified to assist them in the development of the construction documents.
One of the most important questions to ask / research, is how the original floor was constructed. If it was fairly recent, then the original Architectural plans should show a detail and / or have a written specification. This will show / tell you if the floor was sprung (good) or if it was just laid on top of the concrete (bad).
If the building documents are not available, then you can sometimes find a place on the stage where there is a floor box cover or other element that can be removed to let you see down in a crack how many layers of whatever are there. If all else fails, investing the time and money to do an exploratory demolition of a small area is a worthwhile effort. You have to know what you are starting with.
If the floor is sprung, then the issue of just adding a sacrificial top skin is fairly easily resolved, however, if the floor is not sprung, then it would be irresponsible to cover-up 'wrong' with a fresh layer of 'wrong'. Injuries to performers due to working on hard (unsprung) floors is a well-documented issue, and to ignore this fact could expose the school to future litigation should injuries occur.
The necessity of springing the floor is not too dissimilar from the justification for providing sprung floor in gymnasiums (albeit, the spring characteristics are NOT the same for sports and dancing / acting). The injuries to joints and bones are commonly discussed throughout the industry, however, dancers will tell you that the constant pounding of your jaws during repeated vertical motion can clatter your teeth together and chip or wear the enamel veneer off of them - a sprung floor can provide a significant reduction of pain in this area.
Another good argument against hardwood floors is that they are prone to developing grooves from heavy point-loads being rolled / dragged across them. These grooves can develop broken wood edges that can introduce very long splinters into dancers feet and other body parts that might slide across the floor (Yikes! That hurts just writing that sentence!). A hardwood floor requires much more vigilance (maintenance) to keep them safe from splintering.
The available space between the supporting structure and the finished floor level may significantly influence the type of materials required to achieve the necessary resiliency.
Also to be noted is that current building codes are very specific about the chemical make-up of the construction materials (i.e. components containing carcinogens) and the fire retardancy of the materials used for anything that is on the stage (you should be familiar with the Iroquois Theatre Fire and how this has affected the NFPA 101 Life Safety Code). Furthermore, adding level changes that may create impediments to the movement of people and equipment is also affected by the ADA requirements in the building code.
The actual construction may, or may not, be something that you can do yourself, however, the design of the proper solution may be outside of the scope of your job responsibilities. In fact, this level of construction may even require that the documents be prepared by a licensed Architect (whom we would all hope would seek the assistance of someone qualified to assist them in the development of the construction documents.
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DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
RickR
Well-Known Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor
Softwood is traditional, mostly because all the nailing and screwing doesn't split the whole board. I too have worked where tape pulled up splinters but it was a minor issue solved with a coat of paint. MDF & hardboard are what most consultants are putting into new stages. (Concert halls are another matter.)
Softwood is traditional, mostly because all the nailing and screwing doesn't split the whole board. I too have worked where tape pulled up splinters but it was a minor issue solved with a coat of paint. MDF & hardboard are what most consultants are putting into new stages. (Concert halls are another matter.)
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor
I was told years ago that a pine floor should never be "finished" or painted, it should be oiled once or twice a year. that oil would help the wood heal itself from the nail holes and stage screws put into it.
the floor we were talking about had been finnished so i never did get to see how that played out.
I was told years ago that a pine floor should never be "finished" or painted, it should be oiled once or twice a year. that oil would help the wood heal itself from the nail holes and stage screws put into it.
the floor we were talking about had been finnished so i never did get to see how that played out.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor
Several great threads on stage floors here - glad to be able to bump this one - searching for a solution where a user recommended our usual top layer - plyron. If you haven't seen/used plyon, it has the advantages of hardboard (or maso or Masonite if you prefer) and few of the disadvantages - like dimpling or bubbling and sounding like an oil can - because it is basically plywood with the outer veneers being hardboard.
So these folks want something that is more "self-healing" which made al the pine floor comments interesting to read - with likes and dislikes almost alternating. I use to specify pine - like 30+ years ago - because that was the traditional material and it worked well - if it was harvested maybe 50 to 100 years ago - when yellow pine and similar species trees were allowed to grow slowly and become real dense and rather than get the last board foot out of the harvest, quarter sawing or rift sawing was practiced. Nothing as pretty and hard and self healing and tough as true quarter sawn southern pine for stage floors. Regrettably for us in the theater, it seems to only be attainable at really high cost. I bought some for a small home project and IIRC near $100/bd ft. Anyways, I can't help but wonder if the likes for pine is for old dense pine floors and the dislikes are for new plain sawn fast growth material.
So anyone have any new thoughts on this? I wondered how the plain A face ply painted worked out?
Several great threads on stage floors here - glad to be able to bump this one - searching for a solution where a user recommended our usual top layer - plyron. If you haven't seen/used plyon, it has the advantages of hardboard (or maso or Masonite if you prefer) and few of the disadvantages - like dimpling or bubbling and sounding like an oil can - because it is basically plywood with the outer veneers being hardboard.
So these folks want something that is more "self-healing" which made al the pine floor comments interesting to read - with likes and dislikes almost alternating. I use to specify pine - like 30+ years ago - because that was the traditional material and it worked well - if it was harvested maybe 50 to 100 years ago - when yellow pine and similar species trees were allowed to grow slowly and become real dense and rather than get the last board foot out of the harvest, quarter sawing or rift sawing was practiced. Nothing as pretty and hard and self healing and tough as true quarter sawn southern pine for stage floors. Regrettably for us in the theater, it seems to only be attainable at really high cost. I bought some for a small home project and IIRC near $100/bd ft. Anyways, I can't help but wonder if the likes for pine is for old dense pine floors and the dislikes are for new plain sawn fast growth material.
So anyone have any new thoughts on this? I wondered how the plain A face ply painted worked out?
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor
Wears much better and - maybe you are not use to climates with high humidity swings - but it doesn't swell like hardboard. In a high school seems to last 5 to 10 years before flipping it for another 5 to 10. And I only have to use one layer of sub-floor and a layer of plyron. And keep in mind this is all spec, bid, install by a contractor work - new build.
So a hard surface for digs and wheels, good paintability, economical, but doesn't buckle.
Wears much better and - maybe you are not use to climates with high humidity swings - but it doesn't swell like hardboard. In a high school seems to last 5 to 10 years before flipping it for another 5 to 10. And I only have to use one layer of sub-floor and a layer of plyron. And keep in mind this is all spec, bid, install by a contractor work - new build.
So a hard surface for digs and wheels, good paintability, economical, but doesn't buckle.
lwinters630
Well-Known Member
Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
Hey Bill, Footer, Van, and everyone else.
It looks like our stage floor has finally hit the limit of its useful life (35 years I think). It looks like 2 1/4 x 3/4 pine over some sort of sleepers on concrete. I haven't pulled up anything to find out for sure. It is shredding, sheering, peeling (from years of paint), and splintering. In the last 3 years it has really fallen apart to the point that I don't think that paint will hold any more and is a safety issue due to the splintering.
Because it is a high school, we have lots of events overlapping which means most musical and drama sets have to be mobile so we can clear the drama play, have a band concert, reset the play and then bring in a weekend rental dance event, back to play rehearsal then the choir concert and finally dress rehearsal and opening nite for the play. You laugh, but this is why everything is on wheels or fly's or wagons.
We just finished Les Miserables with six sets of rolling stairs, barricades, 3 story buildings that roll in, tables on wheels and carts. Heck, even the choir risers and band shells are on wheels. It is no wonder that the pine stage is falling apart.
The big question is:
Do we go over the pine with 1/4" MDF? (assuming that the edges to doors and thrust/stair edge will allow it). Will that result in paneling causing the sheets to shift with the planking layer underneath?
Or do we tear it all up and start new with ????
What do you recommend for the stage floor and paint etc.
Thanks,
Larry
Hey Bill, Footer, Van, and everyone else.
It looks like our stage floor has finally hit the limit of its useful life (35 years I think). It looks like 2 1/4 x 3/4 pine over some sort of sleepers on concrete. I haven't pulled up anything to find out for sure. It is shredding, sheering, peeling (from years of paint), and splintering. In the last 3 years it has really fallen apart to the point that I don't think that paint will hold any more and is a safety issue due to the splintering.
Because it is a high school, we have lots of events overlapping which means most musical and drama sets have to be mobile so we can clear the drama play, have a band concert, reset the play and then bring in a weekend rental dance event, back to play rehearsal then the choir concert and finally dress rehearsal and opening nite for the play. You laugh, but this is why everything is on wheels or fly's or wagons.
We just finished Les Miserables with six sets of rolling stairs, barricades, 3 story buildings that roll in, tables on wheels and carts. Heck, even the choir risers and band shells are on wheels. It is no wonder that the pine stage is falling apart.
The big question is:
Do we go over the pine with 1/4" MDF? (assuming that the edges to doors and thrust/stair edge will allow it). Will that result in paneling causing the sheets to shift with the planking layer underneath?
Or do we tear it all up and start new with ????
What do you recommend for the stage floor and paint etc.
Thanks,
Larry
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
If you don't have a solid surface to secure the maso or MDF to, your going to just add insult to injury. If the floor is as bad as it sounds, your going to get bubbles, ripples, and all that fun stuff when you put down the new stuff. My 2 cents is to pull up that 3/4" pine and go down with some of that magical double sided plyron Bill speced. It might cost you a bit more then just covering, but in this instance I think it would probably be best. You won't have to deal with the door issues or anything like that because you won't be adding height.
See Bill, even I can be brought around. This seems to be the right application for that product.
If you don't have a solid surface to secure the maso or MDF to, your going to just add insult to injury. If the floor is as bad as it sounds, your going to get bubbles, ripples, and all that fun stuff when you put down the new stuff. My 2 cents is to pull up that 3/4" pine and go down with some of that magical double sided plyron Bill speced. It might cost you a bit more then just covering, but in this instance I think it would probably be best. You won't have to deal with the door issues or anything like that because you won't be adding height.
See Bill, even I can be brought around. This seems to be the right application for that product.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
Larry - I'd always recommend pulling up what is there but hat is also the most expensive solution (almost always). To design a solution, I'd need to know how much the slab was depressed - how thick the overall floor could be built up - and if any changes - like resiliency - should be considered or added.
But replacing the strip pine with 3/4" untempered plyron is not a bad idea IF the subfloor is suitable for this. Screw down - maybe 16" on center around the perimeter and might get away with 24" on center in the field - and three coats of Rosco Tough Prime (black satin) or two now and plan on a third before long. Two often doesn't cover well but should.
Spend the time to neatly route and set floor pockets flush with floor.
Tempered and one side vs two smooth are not related. "Hardboard is produced in either a wet or dry process. The wet process leaves only one smooth side while the dry processed hardboard is smooth on both sides." and "Tempered hardboard is hardboard that has been coated with a thin film of linseed oil and then baked; this gives it more water resistance, impact resistance, hardness, rigidity and tensile strength. An earlier tempering process involved immersing the board in linseed oil or tung oil until it was 5 to 6 percent saturated, and heating to 170° C (340° F)." MDF etc. is wood particles glued together. Hardboard uses no resin - just cooks the wood fibers - more like paper - and then presses them together. Never a formaldehyde concern with hardboard or plyron.
Larry - I'd always recommend pulling up what is there but hat is also the most expensive solution (almost always). To design a solution, I'd need to know how much the slab was depressed - how thick the overall floor could be built up - and if any changes - like resiliency - should be considered or added.
But replacing the strip pine with 3/4" untempered plyron is not a bad idea IF the subfloor is suitable for this. Screw down - maybe 16" on center around the perimeter and might get away with 24" on center in the field - and three coats of Rosco Tough Prime (black satin) or two now and plan on a third before long. Two often doesn't cover well but should.
Spend the time to neatly route and set floor pockets flush with floor.
Tempered and one side vs two smooth are not related. "Hardboard is produced in either a wet or dry process. The wet process leaves only one smooth side while the dry processed hardboard is smooth on both sides." and "Tempered hardboard is hardboard that has been coated with a thin film of linseed oil and then baked; this gives it more water resistance, impact resistance, hardness, rigidity and tensile strength. An earlier tempering process involved immersing the board in linseed oil or tung oil until it was 5 to 6 percent saturated, and heating to 170° C (340° F)." MDF etc. is wood particles glued together. Hardboard uses no resin - just cooks the wood fibers - more like paper - and then presses them together. Never a formaldehyde concern with hardboard or plyron.
FatherMurphy
Active Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
A community theater near me underwent a major renovation a few years ago, and their consultant spec'ed Plyron atop plywood for the stage floor. It came pre-drilled and countersunk for mounting screws, which would be fine, except that the pattern was a grid slightly less than 8" square, the countersinking was extra deep for ensuring clearance, and the installers of course put a screw into every hole. It worked out to something like 91 screws per panel. Furthermore, they installed in February, one of the dryest months of the year, and made sure to smack every panel as tight as possible to it's neighbor before screwing.
So, when the time comes that a panel needs replacing, 91 paint-filled screws will need to be removed, and the panel pryed up from between its humidity-swelled neighbors. In the meantime, the countersink holes, even after many coats of paint, make the stage floor look like a golf ball. Furthermore, plyron isn't available in our town. The nearest dealer is 250 miles away, and wants an extra bump on the price per sheet to break up a pallet, plus the shipping, plus the higher cost of the Plyron compared to AC plywood.
The best 'new install' solution isn't always the best 'future maintenance' solution.
A community theater near me underwent a major renovation a few years ago, and their consultant spec'ed Plyron atop plywood for the stage floor. It came pre-drilled and countersunk for mounting screws, which would be fine, except that the pattern was a grid slightly less than 8" square, the countersinking was extra deep for ensuring clearance, and the installers of course put a screw into every hole. It worked out to something like 91 screws per panel. Furthermore, they installed in February, one of the dryest months of the year, and made sure to smack every panel as tight as possible to it's neighbor before screwing.
So, when the time comes that a panel needs replacing, 91 paint-filled screws will need to be removed, and the panel pryed up from between its humidity-swelled neighbors. In the meantime, the countersink holes, even after many coats of paint, make the stage floor look like a golf ball. Furthermore, plyron isn't available in our town. The nearest dealer is 250 miles away, and wants an extra bump on the price per sheet to break up a pallet, plus the shipping, plus the higher cost of the Plyron compared to AC plywood.
The best 'new install' solution isn't always the best 'future maintenance' solution.
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
That was kind of my feeling as well. For longevity I would much rather have 3/4" ply w/ 1/4" maso on top (painted both sides, etc). When I was teaching in Atlanta we went this method over the old hardwood stage it and it was fine. No bubbling even in the middle of summer. As an end user I would much rather replace a 20 dollar sheet of masonite vs a 90 dollar sheet of plywood. In Larry's case the plyron might work better just due to the 3/4" hardwood depth he already has. At that point its a direct swap without having to re-gap everything.
That was kind of my feeling as well. For longevity I would much rather have 3/4" ply w/ 1/4" maso on top (painted both sides, etc). When I was teaching in Atlanta we went this method over the old hardwood stage it and it was fine. No bubbling even in the middle of summer. As an end user I would much rather replace a 20 dollar sheet of masonite vs a 90 dollar sheet of plywood. In Larry's case the plyron might work better just due to the 3/4" hardwood depth he already has. At that point its a direct swap without having to re-gap everything.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
I've never heard of pre-drilled Plyron. Sure it wasn't lami-flor which always came predrilled and which your description seems to match? It as GP product that I think is out of production. It was a high grade hardboard made with only hardwood fibres - 3 layers of 1/4" material - factory laminated and predrilled - specifically to resurface fabric mill floors to resist the steel wheeled casters. Hard as heck to run a screw into, and probably not getting it all out in one piece.
3/4 plyron is under $50/sheet - but surely not available at the big orange.
I've never heard of pre-drilled Plyron. Sure it wasn't lami-flor which always came predrilled and which your description seems to match? It as GP product that I think is out of production. It was a high grade hardboard made with only hardwood fibres - 3 layers of 1/4" material - factory laminated and predrilled - specifically to resurface fabric mill floors to resist the steel wheeled casters. Hard as heck to run a screw into, and probably not getting it all out in one piece.
3/4 plyron is under $50/sheet - but surely not available at the big orange.
FatherMurphy
Active Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
1/8" hardboard faces, 1/2" plywood in the middle. Was quoted $70-75/sheet by a Chicagoland dealer four years ago, after being directed to them by Plyron themselves (Olympia Products? Can't remember), not counting the pallet-breaking and freight charges. I ended up buying a couple of sheets from the flooring subcontractor to cover my part of the project (organ lift in pit). They *might* have found a similar non-Plyron product and gotten it approved as a substitution, but I'm guessing that there's some sort of patent protection on it.
1/8" hardboard faces, 1/2" plywood in the middle. Was quoted $70-75/sheet by a Chicagoland dealer four years ago, after being directed to them by Plyron themselves (Olympia Products? Can't remember), not counting the pallet-breaking and freight charges. I ended up buying a couple of sheets from the flooring subcontractor to cover my part of the project (organ lift in pit). They *might* have found a similar non-Plyron product and gotten it approved as a substitution, but I'm guessing that there's some sort of patent protection on it.
lwinters630
Well-Known Member
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Re: Resurfacing Stage Floor or new?
Sounds like Plyron. Plyron is a grade or product standard that is owned by the APA APA - The Engineered Wood Association - what us to be the American Plywood Association but was rebranded as the APA-The Engineered Wood Association . Use to be available from three mills; then just Olympic Ply, and I just saw another mill is making it again. I have never seen it pre-drilled.
So other than too many holes, I'm wondering how the problems with painted filled screws poorly installed is any different than 1/4" hardboard equally poorly installed?
I've had two clients who knew what they wanted - and they wanted mdf they could get at their nearby 24 hour Home Depot and they wanted it stapled down and after a bunch of paintings and bunch of layers they'll just spend a day with a crew, a lot of wonder-bars; and a dumpster. I'd never like 2-3" of floor built up but was good for them.
Sounds like Plyron. Plyron is a grade or product standard that is owned by the APA APA - The Engineered Wood Association - what us to be the American Plywood Association but was rebranded as the APA-The Engineered Wood Association . Use to be available from three mills; then just Olympic Ply, and I just saw another mill is making it again. I have never seen it pre-drilled.
So other than too many holes, I'm wondering how the problems with painted filled screws poorly installed is any different than 1/4" hardboard equally poorly installed?
I've had two clients who knew what they wanted - and they wanted mdf they could get at their nearby 24 hour Home Depot and they wanted it stapled down and after a bunch of paintings and bunch of layers they'll just spend a day with a crew, a lot of wonder-bars; and a dumpster. I'd never like 2-3" of floor built up but was good for them.
