Suggestions for LED Cyc units and new follow spots?

[KLM]

Hey, all. I know this is not a new request, but when I searched older threads on this topic, they were all a couple years old, and technology changes so fast. My venue has been told to write up proposals for new equipment, and I'm in charge of deciding what we want for lighting. We've basically been given no spending limit. We are a University and do a lot of concerts, dance, and other event lighting - we get a play or musical once in a blue moon.

The number one part of our inventory we want to upgrade is our cyc units. Right now we use conventionals - seven Altman 6-cell grounds and six 3-cell sky units. We would like to switch to an LED solution instead. I've heard good things about the ChromaQ Colorforce and the Altman SpectraCyc units. Any opinions on these or other fixtures?

Designers who have LED Cyc units - do you still light the cyc with a ground row and an overhead batten? Or just one or the other? I'm not concerned so much about getting pastel colors out of our cyc, our groups usually want it very saturated. Our proscenium is 55' wide by 28' high, our playing area is usually no wider than 40', so I'm also wondering approximately how many units it would take to wash the entire cyc.

As for followspots, we are currently using 2 Lycian Starklight 1271 HMI with long throw lenses. Our spot position is about 100-120' away from our apron. Any suggestions for an upgrade? These current units are pretty tired and we've had difficulty finding parts for them.

I'm also open to other suggestions on things to ask for, seeing as how the sky is apparently the limit. We are well stocked on conventionals and pretty set on movers as well. It would be cool to get some moving beam fixtures for when we get rock events. I'm looking into a new console as well since we would need to upgrade our Ion (2 universes) anyway. We do plan on demoing before we buy anything, I'm just trying to get an estimate on cost.

Thanks for your time!

 

[MarshallPope]

I tend to like the SpectraCycs. I've seen/played with them in a couple of venues, and for that size cyc, 8 or so usually seems to do the job, just from the top. I've also seen them used with a groundrow as well. In my opinion, the groundrow is definitely not necessary for a decent wash, but it does give you artistic options.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

For the cyc you have a choice of "scrapers" like the Selador Classics that want to be as close together as you can afford and 18-24" from the drop or "far cys" in respect to the Colortran units and the ETC Source 4 and Strand PL Cyc fit this bill. Those want to be 4' or more off the drop. If you have a choice - great - but physical limits may make the choice for you. When we can, we design for far cycs - but three feet of stage depth that is hard to make up for.

Always will look better with a ground row and you will always have more design options with a ground row, but they do add cost and can get in the way. (Maybe we should return to cyc pits...) Also - somewhere around 20' I find top only start to not look so good at the bottom, especially if performance areas are lit close to cyc.

Bets is get some samples and try them on your stage and see what the people who have a say and care say.

Follow spots - don't look further than Robert Juliat. A Swiss watch among sun dials. Efficient, quiet, precise, great iris to zero, compact - can't say enough about them.

 

[JChenault]

I have the spectra cycs in my venue and like them a lot. The number of units you need for an even wash depends on how far away you can get from the cyc. We have seven 100w units that we place 3 feet or so from our 30 foot wide cyc and get a nice even wash. When I have to fly them, and am two feet away - I get a bit of drop off between units. One option the spectra cyc has which I wish I had taken advantage of is the 50 watt version. It is half the price, so for the very little increase in power and control cables, you can get closer to the cyc and have equivalent brightness.

You should be able to get a reasonable even wash from top or bottom. If you want different colors top to bottom you will need to add something else. You might want to think of re-purposing your existing fixtures for bottom and replacing the tops with spectra cycs.

If you want really REALLY intense colors, you will need to go with the Selador series. You just can't get that same indigo blue color out of the spectra cyc. Costs a lot more, takes a lot more fixtures as there is no asymmetric reflector, and not as many led emitters per color. This means you will need more fixtures - but they do give you a wider gamut of colors. For us it was not worth the cost.

Another unit that looked interesting at LDI was the new Chauvet cyc unit. I could not do a reasonable test but if I were doing things today I would take a look.

I was looking for spots at LDI and about all I saw for that throw was the Lycan and Canto. I really liked the ergonomics and flexibility of the Canto and am considering one of them for our space.

Good luck.

 

[JChenault]

Always will look better with a ground row and you will always have more design options with a ground row, but they do add cost and can get in the way. (Maybe we should return to cyc pits...) Also - somewhere around 20' I find top only start to not look so good at the bottom, especially if performance areas are lit close to cyc.

.

I completely agree re cyc pits. In our recent remodel I had them put in a cyc pit. One foot deep. Three feet from the cyc with removable pit covers. It makes it very easy to light the cyc.

 

[KLM]

Thanks for the info so far, guys! I'd kill for a cyc pit, too.

 

[SteveB]

Give a good look at the Robert Juliat, Lycian and Strong units. Those are the 3 go-to companies for follow spots.

I'm impartial towards xenon for the color rendition over the HTI lamps used by others. It's a better "light" in my eyes, then HTI/HMI, which I always though had too much UV in the visible spectrum. I've used Lycian 3000kw #1293 xenon machines for 14 years (120ft throw and no, they are not too bright) and other then replacing the iris's, as well as the typical lamp change, they have been very reliable.

As to cyc lights ?, I've demo'd the Seladors and would use the Vivid-R's if somebody were throwing $50,000 my way, but that's as I have a 3 ft distance between electric and cyc.

You need to demo and need to closely watch the low end dimming for flicker and smoothness. If possible get multiple units from the same manufacturer and look at the color matching.

 

[KLM]

Thanks, that's very helpful. We have a lot of led fixtures already so I'm used to checking for the dimming curve, flicker free, and color matching, etc. when we look for stuff to buy. Thanks for the spot suggestions, too!

The annoying thing is they're not having us demo until after the proposals are in. But I'm not letting them buy anything until we try it first.

 

[gafftaper]

Follow spots:
I messed around with a Lycian Zot 7 at LDI (if I remember right). Here's the link to the photometric chart. I was shooting a long way across the convention hall and I was zooming down to a TINY circle and it was really nice bright light. I know they aren't cheap but if you want a quality follow spot you have to pay.

I have a Lycian Midget HP at work. It's about a 120' throw to the upstage wall and it still looks great. Here's the link to its photometric data.

I'm not sure what the price difference, neither is cheap, but both are solid choices for an educational theater. Easy to use and a lot of bang for your buck.

 

[Ben Dickmann]

Hi Everyone, this topic is appropriate for my first post here. I'm Ben Dickmann, and in the interest of full disclosure I'm the Product Manager for Chauvet Professional and the Ovation C-640FC (our Cyc fixture) is one of the products I developed and manage.

If I may, we did several things to our product that I really think make it stand out as an exceptional LED based cyc fixture:
- We designed the fixture with two independent banks, so you can get longer, more even coverage from one fixture and easily get split colors without having to have a ground row and a flown set.
- The fixture uses R,G,B,W,A LEDs to produce a very wide gamut of colors, the individual diodes are mixed before leaving the fixture, so you get very smooth, non-separated/scalloped colors. There's also a gel frame if you want to further diffuse or manipulate the output. Even with these 5 colors, we held this product for over a year working with the color formulations to get the colors "just" right. If you recall, we showed this at LDI 2012, but didn't actually launch until LDI 2013.
- We incorporated a true "Virtual Color Wheel" into the fixture. We spent a huge amount of time with our fixture next to an incandescent cyc fixture gelled with over 30 different Rosco colors matching the LED output to the gelled incandescent. We saved all these onto a DMX channel for easy recall, it can also be recalled via the on-board menu for stand-alone operation. Now we understand not everyone's fixtures will match what we found, for say R80, so we put our "Mix" for each color in the manual for you to use as a starting point.
- We have 16-bit dimming modes for the fixture as a whole and also for each bank, both for Master Dimmer and individual colors.
We placed all the input connections (powerCON in, 5-pin DMX and 3-pin DMX) on one side, and all the output connections on the other side (powerCON out, 5-pin DMX and 3-pin DMX). This saves cable length and also helps keep cable runs tidy.
- Our fixture was designed to be equally at home as a ground row or as a flown fixture.

This is a photo from a little test we did of our entire Ovation range of fixtures. The cyc is lit with 4 fixtures, it's about a 20' trim and 40' wide (I don't have actual measurements)

Here's a link to the webpage for the product: http://www.chauvetlighting.com/ovation-c-640fc.html

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask me here, or email direct: ben (at) chauvetlighting (dot) com

Ben Dickmann
Production Manager - Theatrical & Architectural
Chauvet Professional
www.chauvetpro.com

 

[techieman33]

I have a pair of the lycian 1209 HP's at work and love them. I'm not a fan of lycians larger spot lights though. I've never spent a lot of time running any one light, but of the several I have run none of them would stay in the "sweet spot." I always find myself constantly tweaking the pan and tilt tightness to keep them there. I think part of the problem is the disc the tilt knob rides on is to small.

 

[JD]

Have a Lycian 1209. Nice little spot, but small for what he needs, and not the best clutching. I compare everything to the Strong Super Troupers. Best clutching and a very fine spot. Never had the pleasure of being on a Robert Juliat, but everything I have heard about them is positive, including comments from some who are usually very critical.

The Lycian StarkLite is more or less a 1200 watt version of the 1209 which is 575. It has the same clutch system which is not my favorite. The higher end Lycian spots may be an answer, but I would look for one that does not use the side clutch washer.

 

[KLM]

Yeah, I've been leaning toward the Lycian Superstar 1.2 1295, because I've run it a lot and didn't mind it. I'm definitely gonna check out Robert Juliat, though. I've run a short throw model of some sort by them, and it was pretty sweet. They just seem so little to punch like they do!

Our spot booth is extremely cramped, so we really can't go much bigger than our current spots, so small size is a plus.

 

[jglodeklights]

My thoughts on the three LED fixtures I've worked with in lighting a CYC.

1. ChromaQ ColorForce 72 w/ CYC lens. VERY bright and even wash from left to right. Obviously not as even up and down, but the CYC lens helps. Overall palette is very nice; recommend the 4 color mode instead of the 3 color with Magic Amber. Even with just top or bottom it looks very nice on drops, CYCs you'll probably want both. Requires little space between it and the cyc as it's a strip fixture. Can flicker with some cameras as things heat up. Fan cooled, but the fans are pretty quiet.

2. Altman SpectraCyc 100 and 200 models. Not as bright as the Colorforce, but with the asymetrical reflector the light is much more even from top to bottom The palette that one can mix once they adapt to how the channels mix is incredible and very natural. It just has a learning curve. Red is it's weak spot. Using the 200 or going with closer spacing and putting them closer to the cyc helps mitigate this. No strobe function, but chase effects can allow them to get up to about 20hz. Convection cooled so no fan noise.

3. Strand PLCYC single. Identical driver to the SpectraCYC series so very, very similar color palette. Different shaped reflector creates a bit more focused of a beam than the SpectraCyc, which should make it brighter, but the diffusion to ensure even color mixing is more dense than that on the Spectra, so the output isn't quite as punchy. Easier to use in standalone mode. Fan cooled. The fan is, next to the Colorforce, actually quite loud.

 

[Wood4321]

The PLcyc does not have the same driver as the spectra cyc unless a ton had changed recently. It does however have the same driver as the VL VLX.

 

[southernstagegear]

Has anybody used the Color Kinetics Colorblaze units? I have been told these are the top of the line strips and I see them all the time in rental houses but I have yet to find someone that has them in house. Is there a reason for this?

 

[rochem]

Has anybody used the Color Kinetics Colorblaze units? I have been told these are the top of the line strips and I see them all the time in rental houses but I have yet to find someone that has them in house. Is there a reason for this?

Others may disagree with me, but I would say that in a perfect world with unlimited space available, when lighting a tall cyc a uniform color, using a system of asymmetrical reflector units (such as Far Cycs) is preferable to a system of scrape fixtures (such as strips). They'll generally be brighter and mix better, in my opinion. Strips certainly have their place, and the CBs are excellent for situations where you may not be able to sacrifice multiple feet of stage depth to use a J-Type reflector fixture. Strips are also great for things like sunrises and similar when you want a small section of the bottom of the cyc to be a paler tint than the rest - I've had multiple designers spec Spectras top and bottom, with an additional groundrow of Blazes right against the cyc for just that purpose. If space may be a concern, the ColorBlaze fixtures are great - I can put them 3" from the cyc top and bottom and get an excellent wash. I tend to use them over other LED strips because that's what the shops I work with have, although others have told me that there are now much better scrape fixtures out there. As with all purchases, and especially LEDs, be sure to get lots of demos in your space before you buy - new products are popping up all the time.

 

[techieman33]

Has anybody used the Color Kinetics Colorblaze units? I have been told these are the top of the line strips and I see them all the time in rental houses but I have yet to find someone that has them in house. Is there a reason for this?

Just because most rental shops have them doesn't make them great, that's something you should always remember. The colorblaze were some of the first LED strip units that really had enough punch to be useful so some of the big shops bought a bunch of them. Once they happens they start popping up all over the place since LD's that have used them in the past spec them since they are familiar with how they operate. So more people buy them to fill riders, and it goes on and on until nearly everyone has them. It's the same with Mac 2000's, JBL vertec, source 4's, etc. Once a fixture, speaker, whatever hits that point of critical mass it becomes hard to replace. Tech's are happy since they know what they have to work with when they walk in the door, and the shops are happy to keep renting the same fixture, and not having to buy something new. Mac 2000's, JBL vertec boxes, and source 4's (I know I'm going to take some flack over that one) aren't the best things out either, but they're known quantities. When your renting gear for shows, especially one off's it's always nice to be able to just go in and get to work, and not have to waste time figuring out all the little quirks of a new piece of gear.

 

[derekleffew]

Has anybody used the Color Kinetics Colorblaze units? I have been told these are the top of the line strips ...

They USED to be, but have been supplanted by the ChromaQ ColorForce, which have several advantages, e.g. RGBA, easier to mount, better lensing options, etc.

And everything @rochem said also.

 

[KLM]

Yeah, I've used the colorblaze 72s, and they were great, but I've basically heard color forces are better in every way.

What's better than a source 4 as far as conventional spots go? I'm seriously asking, not being a jerk. The only bad thing about their Ellipsoidals is the bench focusing. There's not really another contender out there, is there? I've used strand stuff and did not like it at all.