Conventional Fixtures 360Q Lamps

Binski99

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I am currently trying to put a some old Altman 360Q fixtures back in service. The theater currently uses 4 Par64's on each side with 1000w MFL lamps. The problem is that pars do not give them much control over the light. So I would like to put their ellipsoidals back into service. I'm not sure why they were replaced because they are all in working order. They just need some TLC (cleaning, lamps, and bench focus). My question is about lamps. What should I get? It will be a 20-30 foot throw and their will be 12 fixtures across the front and 4 on each side wall. I think they are all 6x12s. I should also note that these are the older model that have the brown hammertone paint without the super reflectors.

I was looking at GLA and GLE lamps since they are long life, but I don't know if I should get the 750w(GLE) or 575w(GLA).
 
I'd start with looking at Altman's data sheets for the fixtures. I want to say a 6x12 is equivalentish to a 26 degree instrument in terms of beam spread. Check the sockets on them for signs of arcing. I just retired a dozen sockets due to EHGs arcing themselves to death. For deciding, if you have the time and can afford it, get one of each and try them. Worst case, you have a 575W lamp that you'll probably never use. a 750 can always be saved for when extra punch is needed for something special.
 
If you are mixing them with 1000w pars, I would stick with the 750. The 360Q is a good fixture. Not as good as an S4, but not something to be tossed aside. That said, the S4 is a bit more efficient. You could probably use 575's in an S4, but for the 360, start by ordering a couple of the 750's and see how they mix.
 
Look to the Philips #6981P, and ANSI GLD or for long life GLE lamps once sockets as above probably replaced and fixtures cleaned. Refreshed and cleaned Lekos with a better lamp should at least keep up with a Par Can.
 
Look to the Philips #6981P, and ANSI GLD or for long life GLE lamps once sockets as above probably replaced and fixtures cleaned. Refreshed and cleaned Lekos with a better lamp should at least keep up with a Par Can.

Thanks Everyone.

Ship the 6981P looks great but the GLE seems more cost effective. Although maybe I'll get a couple for gobos.
 
Also, if your throw is only 20 - 30 Ft , why are the PAR's lamped at 1000W? That is a HUGE amount of heat and light. I would encourage them to drop that down to 600W lamps are maybe even less. Then your 6X12's will look great when mixed in. It will alo help with the AirCon by putting less heat into the air.

I was in a similar situation. I eneded up moving all the PARs to the Stage electrics to be wash instruments. All of my fronts came from 6X(9 or 12 depending on location) and reserved a few 6Xwhatever for gobos and such.

Just my $0.02
 
Yeah they don't really need to be 1000w, but thats whats in them and they all still work. Since this is a school the budget is not their to go through just to put lower wattage lamps in. I have decided on GLE lamps and to make things better I looked at most of the fixtures today and the sockets seem to be in pretty good shape (no signs of arcing) and someone at some point went through and replaced the original reflectors with super reflectors!!!! I did check today on the sizes and it appears that their is a mix of 6x9s and 6x12s. I also have some 6x12 360 radial ellipsoidals. Is an EGG lamp the one I want for these? Also does the 360Q 6x4.5 able to take a 750w lamp? It seems like that would be a lot of heat in that little fixture.
 
I'm surprised that your 6x9's still have intact front and rear lenses. That's where the 1,000w lamps will really get you. I agree with your perception though -- they've been used that way for who knows how long... Might as well replace the lamps with the proper wattage as they die.

I do believe the 750w EGG lamp is what you want for the radial ellipsoidals. There is also a 500w EGE option.

I see your hesitation regarding the 4.5x6.5, but it is UL listed for 750w. That rear lens is smaller (more able to dissipate heat) and not much closer to the lamp than a rear 6x9 lens, so I imagine all evens out. Also, the 4.5x6.5 optics only require the single lens, so the heat probably gets passed through that little lens fairly readily. I'd probably just lamp the 360Q's to 575w and do the radials at 750 (they will need the extra wattage to keep up).
 
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I'm surprised that your 6x9's still have intact front and rear lenses. That's where the 1,000w lamps will really get you. I agree with your perception though -- they've been used that way for who knows how long... Might as well replace the lamps with the proper wattage as they die.

I do believe the 750w EGG lamp is what you want for the radial ellipsoidals. There is also a 500w EGE option.

I see your hesitation regarding the 4.5x6.5, but it is UL listed for 750w. That rear lens is smaller (more able to dissipate heat) and not much closer to the lamp than a rear 6x9 lens, so I imagine all evens out. Also, the 4.5x6.5 optics only require the single lens, so the heat probably gets passed through that little lens fairly readily. I'd probably just lamp the 360Q's to 575w and do the radials at 750 (they will need the extra wattage to keep up).

The pars they are currently using are lamped at 1000w, not the 360q's.
 
I've replaced a lot of reflectors in 360Q's that high schools thought should have 1000 w lamps put in... a bit too much for the aluminum's ability to dissipate the heat. They come out looking like dirty silver paint, not mirrors....
 
I've replaced a lot of reflectors in 360Q's that high schools thought should have 1000 w lamps put in... a bit too much for the aluminum's ability to dissipate the heat. They come out looking like dirty silver paint, not mirrors....

Thats exactly the reason I replaced them as soon as I saw them in the fixtures. Their were only 1 or 2 fixtures that actually had 1000w lamps in them so my bet is that someone needed a lamp and took one from the followspot. I didn't see any issues with the reflectors or lenses so they must not have been in their too long.
 
...I see your hesitation regarding the 4.5x6.5, but it is UL listed for 750w. That rear lens is smaller (more able to dissipate heat) and not much closer to the lamp than a rear 6x9 lens, so I imagine all evens out. ...
It's not the diameter, it's the thickness that causes a lens to be susceptible to heat from over-lamping. I've cracked several 4.5x6.5 lenses using FEL's in fixtures rated for 1000W.

... Also, the 4.5x6.5 optics only require the single lens, so the heat probably gets passed through that little lens fairly readily. ...
Again, no. Also, every 4.5x6.5 ERS I've ever seen has two lenses. Think about it: Applying Gullstrand's Equation , a dual-lens 6x9 has an EFL of 4.5". This would be wider than a 4.5x6.5 ERS, and we know that's not the case. The EFL of a dual-lens 4.5x6.5 is approx. 3.25".
 
500Watt AlumiPAR and 575w/115v GLC/GLA lamps might be an overall better goal given your throw distance. Leaves you some head room in throw distance for going more wattage where really needed on specials or gobos that at times need to be brighter. Or at least, go long life GLC 750w/115v lamp so you still have the GLD or Philips #6981P for head room for specials. Can once 575w/115v go down to Ushio HX-400/401 or up to GLD/GLE in keeping color temperature the same for maximum dimming needs - lamping the fixture for the wattage required. This dependant on design, instead of dimming down at times a lot to match the scene and fighting amber shift when not needing it at the wattage it is.

Dim the PAR cans down to match the Leko's you bring back into service. This will in your not really preferring them anyway will make them supplimental and not something to match up to. It will also extend their lamp life a lot which helps in cost effectiveness. Will of course be a change in seeming dimmer on stage, but I kind of doubt by much given the inneficiency of the PAR Can beam verses that of a 575w/115v lamp. This especially once the PAR can is dimmed down anyway at that range so it don't melt candles or makeup thus is useful. Hopefully something better to consider as a concept overall.

As for why the Cans got used and the Leko's thankfully put away, back in 1986 when I was in High School, we had Strand/Century Leko's at school and the science or math teacher (I forget) that did the lighting and sound had this plan also. He didn't want to maintain the Leko's. PAR Cans were easier and his goal also. Never got away with that idea at my school at least, but it was out there at some point as a concept in somehow "just as good." PAR Can is really useful on stage, but not the same obviously.

Radial Lekos you get back into service can be useful for less important things - they won't match the color temperature of the axial ones. Use them also, but secondary for stuff centered especially in the amber range when using them with the other higher color temperature lamps - note the different voltage even when optimized for bench focus. Such Leko's you might also as an option go 750w/120v and should be in the range of the PAR Can's once dimmed down in this concept and only a concept with lots of options centered around going 575w/115v perhaps as a better overall choice.

Final note on working on the lights - the PAR 64 lamp socket should have sufficient tension to lift the lamp and perhaps survive a slight bounce once lifted = a testing method if the socket is still good. This in also removing the lamp to ensure it is not arched to the base or shows damage overall as with other sockets.
 
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Thanks Ship!

We have a few 6x12s still in use and those are lamped with EHG lamps. Do you think a GLA lamp would have equal output taking into consideration the filament design?
 
GLC perhaps somewhat similar. Years - literally years since I tested EHG verses at the time an origional HX-603, verses GLA. Never got good results from the stage in telling me what worked.

EHG is 120 Volts, the others are long life (origional HX-603 these days means 230v version I think), GLA is the 575w/115v version. Tried such lamps for shin busters on booms off stage that were constantly kicked by dancers. Believe the TD chose the EHG overall for lamp life, or was is the GLA he chose... don't remember as I wasn't his primary supplier. Suspect the GLA won out and became most dependable for them.

More efficient and often color temperature and filament size makes up a lot for bulk wattage. Yea.. a GLA is a better lamp.
 
Again, no. Also, every 4.5x6.5 ERS I've ever seen has two lenses. Think about it: Applying Gullstrand's Equation , a dual-lens 6x9 has an EFL of 4.5". This would be wider than a 4.5x6.5 ERS, and we know that's not the case. The EFL of a dual-lens 4.5x6.5 is approx. 3.25".

Ok, riddle me this. What 360Q lens tube is it that has a single lens in the rear and a transition baffle with no front lens? It has this odd "tube inside a tube" design to it. It came [used] in a 6x22 housing but I don't know if that's correct (any other 6x22 I've seen has a 6" front lens). I can get you a picture but it'll be a few days.
 
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Can check my catalogue but I believe a shorter snout and a single lens in the 6x16. Fairly sure on that though in remembering but I will check right away the Altman website. Current parts PDF isn't what it is in the catalogues from the past in info given. Will verify, but single lens in 6x16 I am fairly sure is correct in the morning.
 
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