Source Four pars are a good alternative to fresnels because they are, as already stated, cheaper. (Snip)QUOTE]
I'm of the opinion that an S4 par is not a replacement for any fresnel. Nor is it a ParNel, nor a PAR64. They all have significant differences and if a designer is visualizing the image of a particular type of beam, then that's what you should be providing.
I'm also of the opinion that for a "Rep" plot - I.E. one that stays hung, a unit with the most versatility, is in my mind, the best choice, which is why I have a plot with something like 80 zoom ellipsoidals. I do not use fresnels, even though I think they are still a very versatile lighting fixture, mostly as we're a road house, and nobody (that's US based) spec's them, because so few road houses HAVE them !. I have 48 PAR64's, usually all wides, which I infrequently swap to other lamp types, mostly as there's little time, which is why I almost wish for fresnels.
A Spanish dance company loading-in this Friday spec'd 28 ParNels (of which I have 12 - and contrary to others opinions, the beam is smooth and has no donut - as did the early generation), OR 6" @1kw, or 8" @1kw Fresnels. The shop we use had zero fresnels, but got me the ParNels. where as I've seen multiple plots for events this year, that spec. S4 Pars. Sometimes they are perfectly OK to use a PAR64, other times no and we've rented.
Lesson learned ?, it's great to teach budding designers about fresnels, (especially in spaces with low ceilings), but if the shops no longer stock them.....
Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College
A tad "unusual"
- Thread startergafftapegreenia
- Start date
soundlight
Well-Known Member
Source Four pars also have this on the MFL and WFL lenses, but instead of spinning the tailcap socket you actually spin a ring at the front of the fixture that spins the lens.
Also, about the price of fresnels, I'm talking about the Strand or Colortran ones with the nice focus handle, not the cheaper Altman units with the slide on the bottom. In my experience, the colortran and strand units sell for quite a bit new.
And about size, yeah, they are about the same size as a 6" fresnels, but we went from 8" fresnels to S4 par's, so there's a difference in this case story.
Also, about S4 pars not being a replacement for fresnels. No, not at all. The fresnel provides a certain quality of light that can really not be matched by anything and is great for theater washes and dance washes. But an S4 par works just fine in most situations.
On the PARnel. An interesting concept, and sure, it's a great fixture, but it still can't match the quality of light of a fresnel, but again, it'll work absolutley fine in most situations.
About rental houses not stocking fresnels: they're more expensive to upkeep. Lenses cost more, break easier. Fixtures have moving parts that require adjustment from time to time. S4 PAR's, on the other hand, have much less of a moving mechanism (just the spin ring), the lenses are cheaper, the lamps can also be used in regular S4's, etc. Sure, the PARnel also has moving parts, but I've hardly seen any PARnels in stock anywhere.
If you step back and read the last page or two there is an interesting point developing out of this thread about uses for four different instruments (Par, S4 Par, Parnel, Fresnel). Just about everyone is using them for the same purposes down, back, or side light. However, the difference of opinion seems to be less about quality of instrument and more about the demands of the specific type of venue or show you working on.
We have people who prefer a basic par because it is cheapest, or lightest for touring, the hard core designer who looks at them all as very specific tools and carefully chooses each one, the old school vets who want the perfect soft blend of a fresnel, we even found someone who sort of likes a Parnel.
I guess my point is, going back to a point I think gafftapegreenia was trying to make, you can really use all these. It's more a matter of how creative you are with your use. You choose one over the other because it better fits your needs for budget, space, weight, optical effect, lamp inventory, etc... But 10 minutes to house open, your chosen instrument dies, and you have to substitute, you could find a way to make any of them work work.
One more instrument to throw in the mix is a Selecon Rama PC. It's pretty cool gadget. I think best described as the illegitimate child of a Par and a Fresnel. It's a zoomable instrument that puts out a round circle of light through a frosted lens. It's a very even pool of light with no particular hot spot. The zoom goes from 5-60 degrees. I picked up two of them and they are really intersting to play with. They are awfully expensive here in the states but I bet our friends down under love them.
We have people who prefer a basic par because it is cheapest, or lightest for touring, the hard core designer who looks at them all as very specific tools and carefully chooses each one, the old school vets who want the perfect soft blend of a fresnel, we even found someone who sort of likes a Parnel.
I guess my point is, going back to a point I think gafftapegreenia was trying to make, you can really use all these. It's more a matter of how creative you are with your use. You choose one over the other because it better fits your needs for budget, space, weight, optical effect, lamp inventory, etc... But 10 minutes to house open, your chosen instrument dies, and you have to substitute, you could find a way to make any of them work work.
One more instrument to throw in the mix is a Selecon Rama PC. It's pretty cool gadget. I think best described as the illegitimate child of a Par and a Fresnel. It's a zoomable instrument that puts out a round circle of light through a frosted lens. It's a very even pool of light with no particular hot spot. The zoom goes from 5-60 degrees. I picked up two of them and they are really intersting to play with. They are awfully expensive here in the states but I bet our friends down under love them.
Logos
Well-Known Member
Yes, I love the PC nice smooth pool of light. I am not a real PAR fan. I use them but I find the hot spots irritating but then I'm old school and a theatre designer rather than rock and roll. I agree the price both to buy and hire makes them very attractive when on a tight budget. I love the PAR 16 (Birdie) for on stage architectural use. Lighting the set internally etc.
But the fresnel for washes. Perfect. In my own stock I have a bunch of 4" 500watt fresnels I use for small scale theatre shows. Mind you I go back to a time when we used the old Strand S battens (eight light flood battens) for overhead washes.
But the fresnel for washes. Perfect. In my own stock I have a bunch of 4" 500watt fresnels I use for small scale theatre shows. Mind you I go back to a time when we used the old Strand S battens (eight light flood battens) for overhead washes.
Wow, this thread is really getting interesting. Gafftaper, you really summed up my point. Every designer has certain tastes and preferances. The economics aspect was also really interesting, my Economics teacher would love the example. Personally, it really interests me how everyone feels about the quality of their light.
Anway, I've heard of and read about P/C spots for quite some time. Infact, I've been looking at the Selecon Rama with great interest, but have no idea on how to get my hands on one. I keep hearing great things about them.
Also another thought, what ever happened to the beam projector?
Anway, I've heard of and read about P/C spots for quite some time. Infact, I've been looking at the Selecon Rama with great interest, but have no idea on how to get my hands on one. I keep hearing great things about them.
Also another thought, what ever happened to the beam projector?
soundlight
Well-Known Member
I thought that it was that too many people started playing jokes by putting old flashbulbs in them 
...we have a bunch of boxes of old flashbulbs, no one knows where they came from, but they fit our six remaining BP's!! I actually want to use some of them as audience blinders if I ever do a concert in our venue, which IS going to happen.
...we have a bunch of boxes of old flashbulbs, no one knows where they came from, but they fit our six remaining BP's!! I actually want to use some of them as audience blinders if I ever do a concert in our venue, which IS going to happen.To me it says that the person specifying the theater knew what they were doing.
Could on the other hand be that the ParNel was not on the market yet in not doing the ETC package.
Otherwise a ParNel is not a Fresnel - different type of beam by way of look and it's own animal.
I like the concept of paint brushes. Add to the list a plano convex spotlight and a scoop and cyc lights.
All kinds of paint brushes and each has a specific wash or beam of light use. Many lights can for the most part emulate or be sufficient, at other times you really need or want what was engineered to be the right tool. A PAR 64 for me falls somewhere between a Leko and Fresnel by way of sort of soft tapering edges but a for the most part parallel beam of light. It at times can emulate the beam of light from a Leko - in fact my old high school almost threw out all their Lekos and went Par instead at one point..., or it can create a fairly soft edge wall of light.
A further trick to all the Fresnel, Leko and PAR fixture uses is adding the accessories such as top hats and barn doors to the mix. A top hat as say a down light on each of the above fixtures will have very different or unique beams of light any of which and each individually could be more appropriate for a specific look.
On the PAR 64, you have the various VNSP, NSP, MFL, WFL lenses in 500w, 1,000w or 1,200w. and equivolent S-4 PAR fixtures with the same lenses that will do a higher color temperature, lower voltage beam of light roughly the same as the 500w and 1,000w beams of light on a PAR 64 bottle. The GFD 1.2Kw PAR 64 is also an extra wide flood beam similar to that on the new S-4 Par lenses. S-4 fixtures can't touch the output of a 1.2Kw PAR 64 lamp...
About this time next year I believe, Osram will have their next versions of AlimiPar lamps available for the PAR 64 lamps. Benefits of them will be more luminous output and a higher color temperature. Possibly even a 750w or 800w / 115v lamp instead of the standard 1Kw lamp so as to get three per circuit as an advantage with the S-4 PAR. At that point also, the rock and roll PAR can with lamp might become lighter than that of a S-4 PAR also.
Beyond the stock bottles on a PAR 64, there are other lamp types that are not available for the S-4 PAR...
In the PAR 64 fixture will also fit ray light kits that could do 300w, 600w (DYS), or Ushio's 800w version. Such ray lights will do a beam projector like parallel beam of light.
Than there is ACL lamps available that are kind of like a flash light in converging beams for use with a transformer or with series wiring in sets of four for the PAR 64 that will do a 8x7 field angle beam of 500,000 candlepower light out of a #4552 250w/28v lamp, or 765,000 candlepower out of a slightly larger and upgraded to halogen #Q4559X that's 600w/28v with a 11x7.1/2 beam of light. Old school par cans have uses and options. There is lots of other PAR 64 lamps out there beyond these also.
I prefer if I'm doing any accessories or buying for the stage, steel PAR can fixtures over a rock and roll aluminum PAR fixture. Steel ones are much more rugged, weight often is not as much an issue, and the frame slots, plus yoke breaks are normally much stronger. For the most part steel PAR fixtures for stage usage - as UL listed for that purpose and aluminum ones often not as a stage lighting device, I prefer.
By the way, I did mention beam projectors as another type of fixture that can be really useful. Wyborn recently came out with a nice beam projector in the BP-2.
As with other fixtures, you get a different feel with any specific type of fixture.
Could on the other hand be that the ParNel was not on the market yet in not doing the ETC package.
Otherwise a ParNel is not a Fresnel - different type of beam by way of look and it's own animal.
I like the concept of paint brushes. Add to the list a plano convex spotlight and a scoop and cyc lights.
All kinds of paint brushes and each has a specific wash or beam of light use. Many lights can for the most part emulate or be sufficient, at other times you really need or want what was engineered to be the right tool. A PAR 64 for me falls somewhere between a Leko and Fresnel by way of sort of soft tapering edges but a for the most part parallel beam of light. It at times can emulate the beam of light from a Leko - in fact my old high school almost threw out all their Lekos and went Par instead at one point..., or it can create a fairly soft edge wall of light.
A further trick to all the Fresnel, Leko and PAR fixture uses is adding the accessories such as top hats and barn doors to the mix. A top hat as say a down light on each of the above fixtures will have very different or unique beams of light any of which and each individually could be more appropriate for a specific look.
On the PAR 64, you have the various VNSP, NSP, MFL, WFL lenses in 500w, 1,000w or 1,200w. and equivolent S-4 PAR fixtures with the same lenses that will do a higher color temperature, lower voltage beam of light roughly the same as the 500w and 1,000w beams of light on a PAR 64 bottle. The GFD 1.2Kw PAR 64 is also an extra wide flood beam similar to that on the new S-4 Par lenses. S-4 fixtures can't touch the output of a 1.2Kw PAR 64 lamp...
About this time next year I believe, Osram will have their next versions of AlimiPar lamps available for the PAR 64 lamps. Benefits of them will be more luminous output and a higher color temperature. Possibly even a 750w or 800w / 115v lamp instead of the standard 1Kw lamp so as to get three per circuit as an advantage with the S-4 PAR. At that point also, the rock and roll PAR can with lamp might become lighter than that of a S-4 PAR also.
Beyond the stock bottles on a PAR 64, there are other lamp types that are not available for the S-4 PAR...
In the PAR 64 fixture will also fit ray light kits that could do 300w, 600w (DYS), or Ushio's 800w version. Such ray lights will do a beam projector like parallel beam of light.
Than there is ACL lamps available that are kind of like a flash light in converging beams for use with a transformer or with series wiring in sets of four for the PAR 64 that will do a 8x7 field angle beam of 500,000 candlepower light out of a #4552 250w/28v lamp, or 765,000 candlepower out of a slightly larger and upgraded to halogen #Q4559X that's 600w/28v with a 11x7.1/2 beam of light. Old school par cans have uses and options. There is lots of other PAR 64 lamps out there beyond these also.
I prefer if I'm doing any accessories or buying for the stage, steel PAR can fixtures over a rock and roll aluminum PAR fixture. Steel ones are much more rugged, weight often is not as much an issue, and the frame slots, plus yoke breaks are normally much stronger. For the most part steel PAR fixtures for stage usage - as UL listed for that purpose and aluminum ones often not as a stage lighting device, I prefer.
By the way, I did mention beam projectors as another type of fixture that can be really useful. Wyborn recently came out with a nice beam projector in the BP-2.
As with other fixtures, you get a different feel with any specific type of fixture.
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I agree with you there.
And on that pizza warmer thing? That's funny cause this guy I worked/learned with over the summer called them Pizza Bowls.
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another fine point I like about the par is how quickly it heats/cools compared to fresnels, nothing I hate more than a cut to black being ruined by fresnels cooling.
Also speaking of beam projectors I actually used two recently. Until I saw them in the air I had no clue what they were, I thought they were gonna be like slide projectors or something.
Also speaking of beam projectors I actually used two recently. Until I saw them in the air I had no clue what they were, I thought they were gonna be like slide projectors or something.
Here's a link for the wybron beam projector - looks like a great unit.
http://www.wybron.com/Entertainment/Fixtures/BP-2/BP-2.html
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Plano-Convex spot smooth on the back, while a Pebble-Convex is textured, and a Prism-Convex is a step lens? The only company that I can think of off hand still making a true Plano-Convex spot is Robert Juliat. As we know, the Plano-Convex, with its 'filament image' is the one that ruled in America before the ERS and Fresnel took over. Selecon's P/C's are Pebbles. I saw an old Prsim-Convex on ebay once but as far as I know they haven't been made since the days of Kliegl. So, really you then have three different types of P/C's.
http://www.wybron.com/Entertainment/Fixtures/BP-2/BP-2.html
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Plano-Convex spot smooth on the back, while a Pebble-Convex is textured, and a Prism-Convex is a step lens? The only company that I can think of off hand still making a true Plano-Convex spot is Robert Juliat. As we know, the Plano-Convex, with its 'filament image' is the one that ruled in America before the ERS and Fresnel took over. Selecon's P/C's are Pebbles. I saw an old Prsim-Convex on ebay once but as far as I know they haven't been made since the days of Kliegl. So, really you then have three different types of P/C's.
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BillESC
Well-Known Member
WHO? I know I'm don't know everything, but I can't be the only one who's never heard of Desisti?
The Italian Mole-Richardson
You've heard of MR right ?.
And as a continuation of methods to provide backlight, The Elliot Feld Dance Company, a NY based modern and very technically oriented group, uses (or did when I worked with them) PAR56 strips as back light. Generally 3 or 5 units x6ft./9 lamps across the stage, sometimes 2 rows deep, sometimes 3 deep, usually mediums @ 500w.
Fast to focus, but in my opinion, an absolutely terrible result. Very dependent on positioning and correct trim height to get the coverage, the result with less then optimum positioning was very spotty, lot's of holes.
Go figure
SB
Ah.. Italian. I should have figured that out by the name. That explains why I've never heard of it. But part of M.R. huh? It would be awfully sweet to have an entire inventory using only one lamp wouldn't it.
Just checked the Mole website and they don't have one in the U.S. They do however make a 20,000 Watt Beam projector. That would be really cool in my Black Box with a 17 foot high grid. Forget pizza you can cook actors with one of those.
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Mole-Richardson is the classic, that red color and all, but I get the feeling they're getting upstaged by ARRI, or am I just seeing things wrong.
Film lighting instruments are an entire world in themselves. So many instruments not often used in theatre: pans, PAR fays, softlights, open face PAR's, likely others. Actually, this talk of the HPL reminded me that Bardwell & McAlister makes a PAR fay using the HPL.
http://www.bmlighting.com/catalog/mactechhpl.htm
Film lighting instruments are an entire world in themselves. So many instruments not often used in theatre: pans, PAR fays, softlights, open face PAR's, likely others. Actually, this talk of the HPL reminded me that Bardwell & McAlister makes a PAR fay using the HPL.
http://www.bmlighting.com/catalog/mactechhpl.htm
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