After long last.... new systems at my high school!

zwolf59661

Member
So after years of complaints, my high school is finally looking into new lighting and audio systems for the auditorium. Because I know more about the current lighting system than anyone else, I have unofficially been tasked with looking into lighting controllers that would get the job done, while also using as little of the budget as possible . So far, all that's known about the new system is that it is supposed to be able to accommodate intelligent lighting fixtures, and have room for expansion. The current system is DMX-512, and I'm pretty sure that's the only aspect of the old system that will be carried over to the new one. I don't know the time frame, nor do I know the budget. All I know is that we will need a new and better controller, which won't take too big a chunk out of the budget.

Any suggestions?
 
If you want professional quality theatrical style dimming and control you want to buy either ETC or Strand. ETC is #1 Strand is #2. Although there are lots of other fine companies out there, they are not used professionally. So ETC and Strand should be your top goals.

For a typical high school either an ETC Element or a Strand Classic Palette would be my top choices.

How serious are you about moving lights. Is this a dream you personally have or does the school REALLY have the money to buy them and MORE IMPORTANTLY, is there funding to pay someone for the MANY hours it takes to program them. Lot's of high schools think a bunch of movers would be really cool... and they are, but they have no idea how much time it takes to use them and how expensive they are to operate. Check the price on lamps and the lamp life. Will you REALLY have the budget to replace all the lamps once a year plus pay for other repairs? Read the collaborative article on "the gafftaper method" for more about how I feel on this issue. It isn't as sexy as having a bunch of movers in the opinion of myself (and a lot of others around here) it makes a lot more sense. You'll note at the end of that thread is a link to a dissenting opinion... he's wrong ;) but you might as well read what he has to say.

Before you buy, look into the cost of renting movers locally. How many times a year would you want to use them? How much would it cost to rent them for every show? How many years would it take for you to break even? If you won't break even in less than 5 years I would argue you don't use movers enough to own. Rent them. You will be throwing money away and asking for a huge headache that likely no one on staff is prepared to handle. My experience as a High School teacher tells me that MANY of the moving lights purchased by high schools end up sitting collecting dust for long periods of time because the lamp burned out and there is no money to replace it.

If you are serious about moving lights then you should look at upgrading to Strand Palette VL or an ETC Ion with a wing panel. If the theater is to be used as a community performing arts center with lots of pro concerts then you should consider a Whole Hog or GrandMA... but they cost BIG bucks and are not necessary for 99.9% of high schools.

Beyond that READ and SEARCH here. There is a lot of debate and information on this topic already here. Talk to local dealers and get in person demos. There are some strong factions in the ETC vs Strand battle. Get a demo of each product in person and decide for yourself.
 
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School districts need solid justification to spend the taxpayer dollars so the first thing to do would be to Document the facilities current needs and desired improvements. try to point out how these improvements will benefit the educational process in any way shape or form. I.E. the music departments school day rehearsals and public evening performances will be greatly enhanced by upgraded audio and lighting.

school district budgets usually have some of what I call "shifting sand". toward the end of the fiscal year administrators may realise that that there is some sum of funding out there that if they do not spend it it must be returned to the source. All that boils down to is... if that admin has sitting on his desk a justifiable expenditure and the stars are aligned just right with the wind 'n sand, those funds just may be spent on your facility.

good luck
 
I don't want to pick on you specifically but broad generalized what should we do type of questions, typically are not very usefull, and and a lot of more experienced folks well tend to just ignore the questions

So: what is the budget range. I have seen school districts have ideas on what these systems cost that are orders of magnitude from reality.

what are you trying to accomplish and are you looking for just controller on the lighting side and mixer on the audio side or ???

So suggestion, the more you define the parameters of the question the better the answers you are going to get

Sharyn
 
So far, there aren't many details available. Here's what I can say for sure:
1. the "justification" for the project is rampant complaints that the facility is inadequate (and by inadequate, I mean absolutely nothing works the way it should).
2. They're looking to redesign the audio system, get new curtains, resurface the stage, upgrade the lighting system, and install a proper control booth.
3. I personally know more about the current system than anyone else. This is not an exaggeration.

What I don't know is:
1. the exact budget for the project
2. what type of intelligent fixtures are being considered
3. the estimated time frame of the whole project
 
What brand/model is the current equipment?

Is this a typical high school where the theater is used a couple times a month for all school meetings, music department concerts, drama performances, etc...? Or is it more of a community performing arts center with those things AND other schools in the district coming to use it, People in the community renting it to present professional concerts etc...?

Is there going to be a paid staff person in charge of running the theater?

2. They're looking to redesign the audio system, get new curtains, resurface the stage, upgrade the lighting system, and install a proper control booth.
That's more than a project that a student can handle... heck that's more than most of us can handle. You need a theater consultant to help you with a project that big in order to get it done right. You may be a brilliant student and know how to run the current equipment, but I doubt you know a lot about staging surfaces, building, electrical and fire code, acoustic and sound engineering, types of curtains... You'll have contractors doing work. Architects designing things. A theater consultant works with all these people as the industry expert on your side to make sure things get done correctly and at your budget. It'll cost you a chunk of change but it's worth it to get things right. Having recently completed the construction of a new theater at my college, I can't tell you how many times the theater consultant was critical to our getting a great theater built.

The current system is DMX-512, and I'm pretty sure that's the only aspect of the old system that will be carried over to the new one
Actually if you are forward thinking with your system it probably won't be DMX. We are currently in the process of switching to a new ethernet network based protocol called ACN. Again, a theater consultant will help you figure out how to prepare for the future in this area as well.

If anyone knows a theater consultant they recomend in Pennsylvania (or is one), please send contact info to Zwolf.
 
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I would say the first thing you don't know is your requirements. And to say that you know more about the current system than anyone, and then to say that it doesn't work like it should does not inspire confidence.

See, here's the thing..."it doesn't work like it should" will not go very far in justifying anything. Are saying that if the stuff you currently have worked, it WOULD be adequate? And who is it doing the complaining? Students? Tech? Heck, tech never gets everything they want. Talk to the band director, theatrical teachers, choir director, anyone and everything with authority who uses the space and ask them what is it about the space that does not meet their NEEDS.

Think of it this way:

Your requirements are derived from the intended use of the system. Think of all uses currently expected.

Here's something to start with:

Theatrical performances
Lighting requirements:
Ability to wash entire stage with 4 unique colors, dividing the stage into 4 quadrants, each quandrant to be controlled separately.
This is one requirement. Now, how will the requirement be met? Perhaps a boatload of pars, perhaps LEDs, perhaps something else.
List the available options.
Then work your next requirement for Theatrical performances. Maybe it's to provide a front lit, macandless plot, providing three point lighting to the stage in nine unique areas. This can be done with Source 4s, with angle based on distance and lighting area required.
From just these two requirements we now know that we need minimum of 27 source 4s, 16 PARs (or 4 LEDS), and minimum of 13 control channels.

Do the same thing for band performances, choral, recitals, and each of the uses you can think of. Break it down in just this way. Once you've done lighting, you can apply the same practice to sound.

This is how to justify what's needed. It's the basic work anyone does when determining requirements for a performance space.

You want movers, justify them.....why do you NEED them? Would it be cheaper to rent when needed?

You want a V-DOSC? Why? What's the intended volume level? Ask, doesn't assume. Does the room work with a line-array, maybe or maybe not. Ask the manufacturer. Why put in a system capable of 120db at FOH when the school board restricts performance levels to 95db.

Once all your requirements are determined, you can then go about selecting the tools needed to meet the requirements.

Then, when the budget arrives and you realize that you've been given less than a quarter of the budget you need to meet your requirements, you can go back and reduce requirements, knowing what's being sacrificed, that limitations are now being inflicted, with some form of sense and planning.

Thoughts such as: Should I step down to lower-priced wireless, or remove the wireless requirement and plan on renting when needed?

I pretty much guarantee that if approached in this way. Two things will happen. First, your space will be much more usable than it was before. And second, those movers you thought you desperately needed will have been scratched from the list on the first pass.




So far, there aren't many details available. Here's what I can say for sure:
1. the "justification" for the project is rampant complaints that the facility is inadequate (and by inadequate, I mean absolutely nothing works the way it should).
2. They're looking to redesign the audio system, get new curtains, resurface the stage, upgrade the lighting system, and install a proper control booth.
3. I personally know more about the current system than anyone else. This is not an exaggeration.

What I don't know is:
1. the exact budget for the project
2. what type of intelligent fixtures are being considered
3. the estimated time frame of the whole project
 
Actually, I'm not even directly involved with any of this. I'm nothing more than a former student who knows how the stuff works. My only role in this situation is to research possible options for a new light controller. And to say that I know more about the current system than anyone, and then to say that it doesn't work like it should is accurate. More than half of the dimmers are bad, the audio rack looks like spaghetti, nothing is labeled, about 75% of the light bulbs are burned out with no hope of being replaced because the maintenance department can't find someone who will willingly get the lift needed to change them, the curtains have visible burn marks on them.... I am fully aware that this whole thing is way over my head.

But anyway. The auditorium is used for things like:
-high school band concerts
-high school choral concerts
-high school drama club rehearsals and performances
-teacher in-service meetings and student assemblies
-dance recitals
-professional concerts
 
If it's used for professional concerts, you have two basic options for overall design. Either the space (audio and lighting) needs to be rider-friendly, which usually means spending lots of money, or the design needs to make provision for tying in road show gear.

For example, in audio, a V-DOSC rig with a 5D or even an M7 driving it and Soundwebs processing it would probably be accepted by most riders, but it'll cost a fortune, and for the average high school there may not be an advantage for their use going all that far. But if you can make it easy to bring in outside gear, have chain motors or at least points for them for the array, all mic inputs showing up at a panel offstage at Monitor Beach, spare tie lines of all levels, easy ways to place and connect a road audio console in the orchestra, and so on, it'll make life better for the road guys.

In lighting, you should provide a main DMX input on stage (probably 2 universes) as well as in the lighting booth, outputs on all electrics (or easy to get to all electrics) of both universes from the opto, easy ways to tie in a road rack, and so on.

Funny, I had the opposite sort of problem last week. Lighting a show in what used to be a real venue for a high school, the venue has an MA Ultra Light. I don't know how to drive an MA board, so we rented an Express for the run. Tied it in onstage, but the venue didn't have any spare data cable other than a 10-foot jumper, so for focus and first tech the board was way off down right. A neat thing this place did is there's a patch-in panel on stage for some of the AP, Pro Slot, and Box Boom circuits, something like 60 in all, that go to a bank of transfer switches in the dimmer room to switch the circuit between house dimmers and road show dimmers, so the road rack can circuit out above the house without having to run mults everywhere. That's pretty neat.
 
I think what the previous post was trying to say is that when you put those two in the same sentence, you make it seem like its your fault that it doesn't work the way it should.
I see what you're saying. Allow me to clarify: the system was bad when I started working with it. I documented everything, acquired a copy of the user manual for the light board and used it to learn how to use it beyond "full up", and I actually took care of the equipment as much as I could. But I'm only a student, and I don't have the connections to really get stuff done. If anything in that auditorium doesn't work the way it should, I blame the school administration for neglecting it for so long.

back on topic. Just to make this clear, I'm not in charge of this project. I have no say in the decision making or official whatsoever, though I have been unofficially asked to look into a new lighting controller. I don't know what they're planning to install, I don't know what they're willing to spend.
However, I do believe the easiest way for the school to do it would be to make it road gear friendly, as extra gear is brought in for most of the professional gigs. In addition, some of the dance recitals bring in their own sound systems.
As for bringing in a professional theater consultant, I believe they have someone coming in to evaluate the auditorium, but I don't know when or who.
 
Thanks for the clarification. And I think you have revealed some of the real problems.

Dimmers are bad.....school won't pay to have them fixed.
Lamps are burnt.....school won't have them replaced.
Audio is a mess.....most likely from students repatching, and repatching, and then not returning anything back to original configuration.

This scenerio has been played out in school after school. I can't count the number schools I've been hired for, and find some really good gear, all wacked because students have been left to fend for themselves without proper training and guidance. And far too often the school staff is even more clueless about how the gear works than the students.
So, I do know what you're saying about you knowing more about the system than anyone.

Three questions:
1. If the real problem is lack of maintanance, then how is a new system going to fix that?
2. Has anyone truly determined what it would cost to bring the existing system back into full operation.
3. Can I drive by and load up the old inventory when the new stuff goes in?
 
Three answers:
1. The old equipment is outdated anyway and should have been replaced years ago, but lack of interest on the part of administration led to lack of funding, which resulted in lack of functionality.
2. The old equipment is outdated anyway and should have been replaced years ago.
3. If you really want to, i guess. I honestly don't know what they plan on doing with it.



So someone suggested the ETC Element, so I started looking at it. I looks like it should be great for what we'd need it for. Anyone know the price tag on one of those?
 
Three answers:
1. The old equipment is outdated anyway and should have been replaced years ago, but lack of interest on the part of administration led to lack of funding, which resulted in lack of functionality.
2. The old equipment is outdated anyway and should have been replaced years ago.
3. If you really want to, i guess. I honestly don't know what they plan on doing with it.



So someone suggested the ETC Element, so I started looking at it. I looks like it should be great for what we'd need it for. Anyone know the price tag on one of those?

In all seriousness, I would love to take your discards. Geographically I'm close enough to do so. Chances are its not half as bad as you think it is.

Maintenance and proper training are the keys to a "working" system. There are many schools that have fully functional systems that don't even have DMX data distribution, as you indicated you have. If you could provide us with more specific information of exactly what gear you have, it would help us a lot here on CB. Additionally, take pictures! Post 'em up here. Pictures speak a thousand words. Find your main concerns and photograph them. We can help you detail a report on how your system is not up to snuff, or we can offer suggestions that don't include purchasing new equipment, where applicable. If you feel you could use a second set of eyes, invite a CB member out there; failing that cold call someone. You're not terribly far from Philly, the city, Bloomsberg, Allentown, all places that will have knowledgeable theatre technicians.
 
As noted, list what is presently there in use. Then list how the space is used and how often. This will make it easier to figure what to spec.
 
If you feel you could use a second set of eyes, invite a CB member out there; failing that cold call someone. You're not terribly far from Philly, the city, Bloomsberg, Allentown, all places that will have knowledgeable theatre technicians.
After some research it appears as though i'm not that far away. (I'm usually in Scranton 3x a month)
 
If the gear is less than 15 years old I would seriously doubt that it is "outdated" which seems to be a recurring theme in your argument for new gear.

Still don't understand how buying new stuff is going to solve your problem with lack of interest on the part of administration.

Without directly addressing the maintainance concerns, and including the costs associated with upkeep (ie. an in-house technical director), this is just another case of throwing good money after bad.

The best thing you can do for this school is be straight with them regarding the actual costs associated with maintaining any large theatrical system. If they baulk at the cost of upkeep, then you're just banging your head against the wall, and wasting tax-payer money.

Three answers:
1. The old equipment is outdated anyway and should have been replaced years ago, but lack of interest on the part of administration led to lack of funding, which resulted in lack of functionality.
2. The old equipment is outdated anyway and should have been replaced years ago.
3. If you really want to, i guess. I honestly don't know what they plan on doing with it.



So someone suggested the ETC Element, so I started looking at it. I looks like it should be great for what we'd need it for. Anyone know the price tag on one of those?
 
No offense intended, but how do you think a new system will solve your issue with lamps being burned out? That will be a perpetual problem even in a new system if the staff isn't proactive about it.
 

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