Altman Shakespeare Lifespan

[ship]

You have not worked on enough #360 or #360Q fixtures if you say they were the same. Main components, yes, but when you get into reflector and gate assembly & especially the gate ring... and to some extent the lens tube mountings, there is differences in where screw holes from one fixture aligns to another. When I do a bulk service call to Leko's it's often a spinning of the parts to match holes, if not onto the next part to try again etc. Marking or scribing which part came from which fixture has been tried but than you sometimes get also into stripped holes during re-assembly. Not often viable in scribing if sand blasting a part as another detail.

While probably more accurate than this, a common repair expression by us servicing them was "Altman drilled a mounting screw approximately here in the morning on that fixture, and there after lunch there approximately." Because they were assembly mounting screws, why would be taking the fixture apart 20 or almost 50 years later? It's not like they had a CNC machine to place holes where wanted even into the late 1990's for a cast pineapple.

This as with I don't think the same P-28s Bryant lamp socket is made any longer for the #65 or #65Q and replacement bases I'm aware of normally have different mounting holes to the plentium or glider plate.

Things do change but your point is valid and good in noting about the Shakespheare. I have almost no experience with the fixture and don't even have one in the museum. (If anyone going LED... contact me off line in adding to the collection.)

Initially when ETC came out with the 750w lamp, the specification was to change the lamp base due to gauge of wire, and drill out the base for that roll pin blocker. With time lamp caps were in suficient quantity to buy new ones with budget. (I also don't have any 575w versions of the S-4 in collection.)

 

[Les]

You have not worked on enough #360 or #360Q fixtures if you say they were the same. Main components, yes, but when you get into reflector and gate assembly & especially the gate ring... and to some extent the lens tube mountings, there is differences in where screw holes from one fixture aligns to another. When I do a bulk service call to Leko's it's often a spinning of the parts to match holes, if not onto the next part to try again etc.

You are absolutely correct. However, I would go out on a limb and say that the parts most end-users would normally expect to replace would be more-or-less trouble-free to drop in whether new or old. Structurally, there are differences. The castings of brown vs black 360Q's can be different. Primarily at the interface of the shutter gate and the pineapple and parts not mating up. I have found this to be more of an issue when combining major body parts of an 80's era fixture with body parts from a 90's era fixture. Some of us end-users do in fact swap parts at that level but I would assume that the vast majority never needed to unless they were assembling lights from a fixture boneyard (one of my fav things to do by the way). Lamp caps I don't believe ever changed, and that's a big one since they often go missing. Shutters/reflectors are entirely interchangeable (I have a 1980's sporting a "super reflector"), and lens tubes should fit.

Right you are about rotating parts to fit. I have found that true especially with the aluminum shutter pressure plate. I'm assuming they had a handmade jig for the holes and it only worked one way. And of course on a unit that had been apart multiple times, you'd strip the holes and need to drill new ones by clocking the plate another few degrees. Mostly a function of old tech and manufacturing techniques.

This as with I don't think the same P-28s Bryant lamp socket is made any longer for the #65 or #65Q and replacement bases I'm aware of normally have different mounting holes to the plentium or glider plate.

Yeah, that was more a function of needing to change socket manufacturers. Hard to blame Altman for that, although I'm sure it is frustrating. A function of such a long-lived lighting fixture is that at some point some 3rd party will stop manufacturing a crucial part. I think ETC had trouble a year or two ago in regards to their S4 Par lenses. Maybe this was when Corning got bought up. They did a poll here about whether people would be fine with "non-oval" Source Four WFL lenses. I believe the resounding answer was "heck no!" I personally wouldn't mind some of those round WFL's.

@ship I may be able to get you a Shakespeare. They're a horse of a different color, I'll say that much.

The 3.5Q has changed the least. Aside from our offline convo regarding a change of lens tube.

 

[ship]

Other than being special order to get a G-9.5 base (but I think holes for it are still pre-drilled), it probably other than the gate/shutter spring/dimples. My favorite fixture if you cannot tell. Fair discussion. Interesting, I missed this ETC lens question. I wonder what the option was, step lenses or plastic filters?

 

[Ravenbar]

Yeah, not to put anyone on the spot, but I'd like an example of this "always changing" thing. Altman made the 360Q almost the exact same way for decades. Same with 65Q and 75Q.
The Shakespeare ran from ~1994(?) until sometime in the mid-2000's. I have some 1995 fixtures and some 2005 fixtures and can't tell the difference between them aside from a different texture to the powdercoat. Lamp caps have been shared between them with no issues. The only hiccup being a slightly different socket design on these "newer" units. But that probably had more to do with the design of sockets at the time.

At the same time, I've had trouble getting newer caps on to the back of an older S4 body. Tooling changes over the years and designs go through minor revisions. These things are to be expected.

I've had the same experience with caps of the same generation on Shakespeare's. Either the insertion guide rails on the caps are too large or the slots in the housing are too small. My solution has been to file down the guides on the cap to get them in and to loosen the screws holding the housing halves together to get them out.

As far as Altman fixtures always changing, I believe the Shakespeare was discontinued in the early 201*'s(controlbooth wiki on Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlights says that were replaced by the Phoenix in 2011). Giving it a production lifespan of roughly 17 years. If a High School purchased the units in 1994, with an intended lifespan of 25 years(about what I've seen at the school I work at), then by the end of the 25 years, with Altmans 5 years post discontinued parts availability, that puts the units expected life 3 years beyond Altmans parts availability. And that is giving a best case scenario. School I work with purchased a bunch of shakespeare in either 1999/2000 or in 2008, so either 9 or 17 years beyond parts availability.

The 360Q had a production lifespan of 41 years and I can still buy parts for them now(not sure in another year however as they were discontinued in 2015, so we're still within the 5 years).

 

[Les]

I've had the same experience with caps of the same generation on Shakespeare's. Either the insertion guide rails on the caps are too large or the slots in the housing are too small. My solution has been to file down the guides on the cap to get them in and to loosen the screws holding the housing halves together to get them out.

I will say I've had this same issue. I always attributed it to a rougher/thicker powdercoat texture on the newer units. It was never so bad that I had to file anything down, but I do remember some tight tolerances when putting new caps on old fixtures.