Basic Dimmers

[soundlight]

Cool fact: NSI DS series dimmers have individually replaceable control and dimmer modules. And you can get 120 channels of DS dimming for about $18K, including a rack to hold it all and a bunch of 2' DMX jumpers.

The reason that this is a cool fact is that they are 19" rack style dimmers, and can have up to 12x2.4kW modules loaded into them. They always come stocked with modules, but the modules are replaceable.

 

[gmeader]

Let's say I'm in the market for ~96 permanent install 2.4kw dimmers. Can you guys just tell me about some simple, cheap, reliable brands/products of dimmers for my own personal knowledge?

Inexpensive rack mount 2.4KW dimmers are available from Lightronics. I've toured with them and though they seem kind of low end, they held up just fine.
http://www.lightronics.com/rackmounts.html

 

[soundlight]

Don't buy Lightronics. Don't buy Lightronics. And lemme make sure that I've made my point: don't buy Lightronics.

My reasoning:
1) NSI is cheaper
2) NSI is more stable
3) NSI dimmers are much more durable
4) One lightronics install that I know of (my HS) has been spending $800/year for repairs to the POS lightronics dimmers for two years and is looking to be able to replace them because you just can't fix them at all. They fail again within six months.
5) NSI is much more reputable than Lightronics across the board.

 

[Van]

By the same token I could jump up and down and scream " Don't buy NSI" As far as I'm concerned they are total peices of crap and I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole, they have modular controllers ? Cool they've caught up with the 1980's. I have worked with NSI gear for years I live not far from where they are made, Service sucks, part are constantly unavailible, people unresponsive, and the gear is notoriously difficult to work with. But that's just me.

 

[soundlight]

Hmmm...I've had nothing but good experiences with NSI. Solid gear, doesn't need replacing very often.

I'd also look at Applied NN's dimmers, because they're very tough as well.

I also have it from a reputable source (not to be named, but they actually saw this happen) that when Lightronics runs out of a component, the boss of Lightronics goes to Radio Shack to buy more, because they don't really care about keeping stock.

 

[Footer]

I would 3rd, 4th, and 5th the no NSI thing, Lighttronics makes half way decent stuff. Also the wire the rack and only buy half the dimmers now thing is a really good option. When you get your rack installed, and whatever extra circuits pulled, its a great thing to get it tied into the rack. It does make circuiting a show a bit harder to have to throw dimmers around, but its a lot better then having to import circuits everywhere or having to hard patch. Get the circuits you want pulled first no matter what happens, if you want to add circuits later its a much bigger process then installing another rack. So... in short... get the rack installed and circuits pulled and tied into it, after that, get what dimmers you can afford, and then buy 5 or 10 dimmer modules a year until it fills the rack. I have worked in theatres that have 3 sensor racks wired up, but only 100 or so dimmers. Its no fun but its better then running cable everywhere.

 

[Van]

I would 3rd, 4th, and 5th the no NSI thing, Lighttronics makes half way decent stuff. Also the wire the rack and only buy half the dimmers now thing is a really good option. When you get your rack installed, and whatever extra circuits pulled, its a great thing to get it tied into the rack. It does make circuiting a show a bit harder to have to throw dimmers around, but its a lot better then having to import circuits everywhere or having to hard patch. Get the circuits you want pulled first no matter what happens, if you want to add circuits later its a much bigger process then installing another rack. So... in short... get the rack installed and circuits pulled and tied into it, after that, get what dimmers you can afford, and then buy 5 or 10 dimmer modules a year until it fills the rack. I have worked in theatres that have 3 sensor racks wired up, but only 100 or so dimmers. Its no fun but its better then running cable everywhere.

Now that I thouroughly agree with, If you can afford it. get racks now add more dims later.

Oh, just as a side note. < 'cause it's the way I'm wired> Years ago when I was between jobs and things were slim pickens here in portland. I worked at a Radio Shack in Tualitin, just south of Portland, where it was a monthly to weekly occurance that the guys from InFocus' R&D dept. would come in and order a couple of thousand dollars worth of resistors, capacitors, couple of different op-amps, solder and such. Mostly because it was easier and quicker than going through the companies buyers, getting bids from China, then ordering enough to make a container shipment from china worthwhile. So it's actually not uncommon for even really big companies to do such things.
< wow that was more like a side novel than a side note.>

 

[soundlight]

I think that we've forgot a brand! A very good brand, when it comes to dimmers! LEPRECON! VX install series.

Yes, ETC dimmers are the standard, but no, not everyone can afford them, and yes, NSI dimmers will work well in a situation where they are not run daily for long periods of time. If this was a situation where it was a roadhouse or a facility where the productions went on nonstop, I'd say no NSI. But since it's not a daily, rigorous thing (just six or so big shows, yes?), I think that NSI will do fine. I saw an install where there were five DS series racks installed in a control room for an auditorium, and when I asked, they said that the dimmers had been there since about when the DS series came out (1998), and that they had experienced no problems with the dimmers. My visit to the auditorium was summer '05. (For reference, this is Exeter Academy's main assembly hall that I'm talking about, and the dimmers were fired up at least twice a week for assemblies, and often longer for other productions and rehearsals).

 

[SteveB]

Cool fact: NSI DS series dimmers have individually replaceable control and dimmer modules. And you can get 120 channels of DS dimming for about $18K, including a rack to hold it all and a bunch of 2' DMX jumpers.
The reason that this is a cool fact is that they are 19" rack style dimmers, and can have up to 12x2.4kW modules loaded into them. They always come stocked with modules, but the modules are replaceable.

This is a very nice design. Too bad it's NSI, which I too have trouble believing is a reliable product. It's been more then a few years though since I last used their gear, pre-Colortran/Levition and I'm now getting the impression that the infusion of Leviton funding may well make them a serious player.

Thanks for the info.

SB

 

[Van]

I think that we've forgot a brand! A very good brand, when it comes to dimmers! LEPRECON! VX install series.
........
quote]

I just want to double check.... that is a joke right ? I don't beleive I've never heard the words Leprecon and Good used in a sentence together without some negative modifier < or several> between them.

 

[Radman]

NSI, Lightronics, and Leprechaun all hurt my soul. Look for a CD-80 or something with balls. You might look at lightbroker.com if you're looking for cheap used gear.

 

[Footer]

I think that we've forgot a brand! A very good brand, when it comes to dimmers! LEPRECON! VX install series.
........
quote]
I just want to double check.... that is a joke right ? I don't beleive I've never heard the words Leprecon and Good used in a sentence together without some negative modifier < or several> between them.

I thought the same thing.... Might as well by elation dimmers....

You might be able to pick up a used CD80 rack for cheap. I don't care what others say, CD80's are really the backbone of the industry.

 

[BillESC]

Your best bet might be to go with NSI's DS12-24KO racks.

Two rack spaces with 12 2.4kW dimmers with a MAP price of $ 2439.00

You'd need 8 of them for a ballpark price of $ 19,512.00

The best thing is you can buy them as funds are available.

 

[soundlight]

Hmm...BillESC, I'd like to hear your opinion and experience with NSI gear, because, if you read the thread, you will find that there is an amazing resistance against purchasing NSI gear from members on the board. I think that their stuff is great, stable, and holds up well, but I don't have many people that agree with me here...

Basically, what's your overall track record with NSI gear?

 

[gafftaper]

Leprechauns scare me... they are so small and green... and always after me lucky charms.

Ok, now this is just turning into "bash the low end gear" thread. We are talking about a complete system desperately in need of replacement and a budget of less than $50k. This thread has turned into something like telling someone who has $10k to buy a car that anything but a BMW or a Benz is crap. With the cost of install, You just can't afford the high end stuff from ETC or Strand. You need to find the best thing you can afford.

First off meet with your local sales person and see what they carry and have them take a close look at what the status of your wiring is... as that will greatly effect your install costs.

I know Van's going to freak but I think the new products from NSI are probably the best option, at your price range. Come on Van you've got to pick one and all you can afford is: NSI, Lightronics, Leprecaun, Dove... what's it gonna be?

I'm with Soundlight. I've used NSI products for the last 5 years or so in a limited use installation (like yours) with no problems at all.

As long as the rest of your wiring doesn't need replacement you can probably get dimmers, install, a console, and some instruments for under $50K. It's not "professional" quality but I'll do the job a few hours of use a week just fine.

 

[soundlight]

My thoughts exactly!!!

The NSI stuff is all that most high schools can afford. My school is currently trying to raise the $20K needed to purchase and install 9 of the DS12-24 racks to replace the retrofitted lightronics system that was dropped into the old hardpatch bay (which is still used to route to the lightronics dimmers). The guy from Stageworks came to look at our dimmers, and came back laughing. Then we told him how little we wanted to spend, and he laughed some more. And then he said "when was that put in?" I replied "about 1972 or so". He then said "that went out of code four years after it was put in!" And we're still using it. Needless to say, we're hoping to fix that very, very soon.

 

[Van]

No I'm not freaking out. I'm just a dimmer snob, I'd rather have 24 that work rather than 36 that work when the moon is in proper alignment with the constellation Orion, or however those guys at NSI do it.

I'm not bashing all low end gear but simply put I wouldn't touch NSI or Lep with even your money and can't put my reputation of advice giving on the line to help someone make a budget. That's all. I'd buy Used CD80s before I bought a full compliment of brand new NSIs.

BTW. I'm suffering from ITS presently < In Tech Syndrome> it's like PMS only worse for TDs. So if I come off gruffer than usual, just nod give me chocolate and walk away.

 

[BillESC]

My experience with NSI goes back probably 30 years. We have installed hundreds (if not thousands) of their dimmers and controllers in everything from schools to churches to nightclubs.

I have found the amount of service or problem calls to be minimal. We have some of their satellite dimmer packs in our rental inventory that are around 30 years old and still work as well as the day we got them.

The dimmer cost I listed above is the Minimum Advertised Price as set by Leviton, however I know you can do better.

 

[soundlight]

From my experience, NSL (Northern Sound and Light) beats out FullCompass an Stage Lighting Store and StageLights and a number of other companies in prices, but you do have to email them (hence the MAP comment above). But hit 'em all up, Bill's company (Entertainment Systems Corp), NSL, FullCompass, Production Advantage, Stage Technology, Premier Lighting, StageLights, Stage Lighting Store, and all of the online retailers and ask for quotes. Many of them will be able to provide prices far below what they list on their sites!!

 

[gafftaper]

From my experience, NSL (Northern Sound and Light) beats out FullCompass an Stage Lighting Store and StageLights and a number of other companies in prices, but you do have to email them (hence the MAP comment above). But hit 'em all up, Bill's company (Entertainment Systems Corp), NSL, FullCompass, Production Advantage, Stage Technology, Premier Lighting, StageLights, Stage Lighting Store, and all of the online retailers and ask for quotes. Many of them will be able to provide prices far below what they list on their sites!!

Back to a previous side discussion in this thread, while I've got nothing against buying from on-line/out of state retailers for instruments, consumables, and hardware. I would only get quotes on dimmers and consoles from a place close enough that you would call them to come repair your system. I want to know my repair guy and I want to know he knows my brand. If I can fix it myself, no problem shop on line.