Building a Personal Workstation

[tolienbosheit]

Hey y'all,

I'm going into my senior year of undergraduate studies and looking to purchase a new computer...let me clarify - by purchase I mean build. I'm looking to build a workstation-like system, though it will be used for other purposes (specifically gaming...hey, a guy has to have his entertainment, right?). I've focused on Technical Direction and Sound Design throughout college, with a little bit of lighting and scenic thrown in for good measure. The system I'm looking for will be able to run programs like Vectorworks, AutoCAD, ProTools, WYSIWYG, and so forth with very few hiccups. So, here are my two questions:

First, I've looked through ProTools documentation and they recommend very specific graphics cards...but from looking around at other cards I'm not sure why they choose those cards. Why do I need a very high level workstation card to run Pro Tools? The graphical interfacing isn't very processor intense, nor do those card (as far as I can tell) support multiple displays without a third party attachment (such as TripleHead2Go). Also, what advantages (relating to the programs I want to run) does a workstation card have over 2-3 cheaper cards running a SLI/Crossfire configuration?

What would you recommend for a soundcard/sound output on system running ProTools? I've found more than a few options, but can't find much documentation on any of them besides what type of surround sound they provide.

Thanks!

 

[techieman33]

Your link is pointing the wrong place.

A workstation card is basically the same hardware as a gaming card with very few changes, the main differences are in the drivers available for the cards that are designed to speed up the rendering of graphics in CAD programs. That being said unless your making your bread and butter off of CAD I think a gaming card will be plenty fast enough.

 

[themuzicman]

I have a 2.4 gHz 4 year old Macbook Pro and it is running ProTools, Logic, Vectorworks Spotlight, and AutoCAD for Mac spectacularly.

I also have Windows XP installed on it to Bootcamp to use my QSC Venue Manager, SoundVision, and Smaart rig. It handles it all marvelously.

Not trying to get into a Mac versus PC battle, but when Mac switched to Intel processors it became a no brainer, especially working in audio I didn't have to choose what gear I could effectively work with and had the entire world of choices open to me. It has proven especially useful when I started freelancing and showed up on a gig to a new venue and was presented with an unexpected piece of gear I had to interface with - no surprises anymore now that I can control anything!

 

[DuckJordan]

But can you get parts for your Macbook pro for replacement on a sunday or saturday, and how expensive are they?

 

[mstaylor]

I will refrain my normal Mac bashing. I am questioning the rational behind combining all the theatre specialty software and a gaming platform. I don't game at all so I am simply asking if they would conflict.

 

[Footer]

I used to be HUGE into building computers. I still remember installing the "supercharger" chip on my 486. I remember spending weeks researching in PC magazine (yes, in print) the perfect motherboard to team up a 1.4ghz AMD processor... all to play counterstrike at 50fps. I loved doing it. However, my Antec case now sits in a closet... and in its place sits a 4 year old Dell Optiplex workstation loaded down with 4tb of hard drives.

The reason I gave up PC building was three fold: first, I needed portability. I needed to be able to take my production machine and set it on the tech table and do actual work. Too many times I was bit having to go home to fix a drawing, a cue, or whatever. I wanted the power with me at all times. Yes, I had a laptop, however, it was a Dell D600 that was a glorified email and surfing machine. Second, building just no longer made sense. I used to build to get the exact parts I wanted. Back then, it actually mattered. Having your buss speed perfectly match your ram REALLY mattered. Having a cooling fan that could keep your processor under 100 degrees mattered. Hell, I heated my first apartment with my desktop PC. However, it no longer does. PCs have pretty much leveled out. Yes, you can pick and choose gear, but there is really no point. There is no software out there that can really push a good dell PC to its limits. Even with rendering huge files, you won't feel it. If you game, throw a good graphics card in and you are set. My desktop has a 5 year old card in it and it still does great. Thirdly, you aren't saving any money anymore. It used to be you could build a PC for half of what you could buy the same configuration from dell. However, thats not at all true anymore. The major vendors have all dropped prices so low its almost better to buy a basic PC and throw an extra stick of ram in and a decent graphics card. They buy processors 1,000s at a time... they are going to get a better deal then you are.

So, what do I use now? My first "non-build" was an Asus laptop. It was pretty great. Great graphics card, great screen, horrid battery life. I could game on it and compete with people who had full towers. I bought it for a grand. It lasted me two years then started physically falling apart. Its now my home theatre PC and is still going strong. I replaced it with a 500 dollar Dell refurb with a I3 processor, 4gbs of ram, 350gb HD, full keyboard, esata, and 3 hours of battery life. I've had it over a year and have had zero problems. It runs Audition with 30 tracks going. It edits photos. It does video great. It drafts like a champ... no matter how big the files get. Hell, it even runs portal 2 fairly well. It even has an HDMI out. The only thing it lacks is a dedicated graphics card which you don't need unless you want to seriously game. Integrated graphics are much better then they used to be. Best of all, it costs 500 bucks. So, 250 a year, 20 dollars a month... in a 2 year replacement cycle. It goes with me everywhere, does what I need to do, and does not break the bank.

Right now you don't know what your future career will be. My first 6 months out of college my desktop sat in a storage unit collecting dust. Don't drop a ton of cash on something that you are going to have to lug around for the next 2-3 years. You REALLY don't need a computer with specs like the Mac-Pro to draft. You don't need those specs to do most audio processing required for a theatrical production. If you do, your time is cheap right now... so... wait. Your not in a high production environment where you make 200 dollars an hour where render times really count. Don't break the bank. Your going to be poor in 9 months like you have never felt in your life. Save your money. If its not your money at play, then buy something you will actually be able to use in a year and not something that is going to sit at mom and dads collecting dust. The only reason I still have a desktop is for large file storage/carbonite backup. Otherwise, it would be gone too.

 

[Tex]

The only reason I still have a desktop is for large file storage/carbonite backup. Otherwise, it would be gone too.

I've even lost that desktop. I've gone to 3 TB of NAS drives. My drives even have a USB port for networking a printer or attaching an additional hard drive. It's reached the point where, unless you need something very specific, an off the shelf computer will be cheaper and just as fast.
I do kind of miss the old days of building workstations though. I loved all the hours I spent doing Gopher searches for drivers, changing jumpers and solving IRQ conflicts. When it all worked, you felt like you'd accomplished something. Good times...

 

[museav]

Having been looking for a new laptop myself I've found a recent trend of eSATA and USB 3.0 ports replacing FireWire and card slots on most current non-Mac laptop models. With several devices and interfaces I use as well as gear in existing systems having FireWire or serial interfaces, this leads to having to also carry numerous external adapters, interfaces, etc. and hoping they work with the various devices. That could be a factor in this case as a desktop machine would allow much greater flexibility in terms of adding cards to address various connectivity and applications.

Without getting into the 'bigger picture' debate, because my work involves several programs that only run under Windows and none that require a Mac OS, I have found that a new MacBook Pro along with the related software I need ends up being significantly more than a similarly configured PC laptop, around 1-1/2 to 2 times the cost. That cost difference may be justified for those who need the flexibility of both OSs, but not for my use. This also avoids dealing with adapters to get the video to other devices and worrying about HDCP being enabled simply because I connected to a device that supports HDCP. Apple has made many AV pros lives miserable with that latter and in my personal view indicates that the related products are clearly consumer rather than professional/business oriented.

The biggest problems I've encountered with graphics cards are compatibility and especially driver compatibility. After encountering numerous errors and problems I recently had to 'step back' my graphics card driver from the latest NVIDIA driver to the last Microsoft certified driver. And that card was already a replacement for the card that came with the PC and that seemed to have compatibility problems with EASE.

 

[Footer]

I've even lost that desktop. I've gone to 3 TB of NAS drives. My drives even have a USB port for networking a printer or attaching an additional hard drive. It's reached the point where, unless you need something very specific, an off the shelf computer will be cheaper and just as fast.
I do kind of miss the old days of building workstations though. I loved all the hours I spent doing Gopher searches for drivers, changing jumpers and solving IRQ conflicts. When it all worked, you felt like you'd accomplished something. Good times...

I used to run freenas on an old machine. The problem with that though was it was a single backup strategy and you still had to deal with offsite backup. The computer that I have loaded up with hard drives is also running carbonite... and has uploaded half a terabyte to their servers. All of my laptops backup to the desktop box which is then uploaded to carbonite for safe keeping. Works pretty well. With this in place, if my house burns down.... I'll still at least have my pictures.

If you do go with a laptop, your backup strategy is important. Hard drive failures, theft, water damage, and whatever else are much more likely with a laptop. You need an external HD that you backup daily or at least weekly to.

 

[cpf]

If you do go with a laptop, your backup strategy is important. Hard drive failures, theft, water damage, and whatever else are much more likely with a laptop. You need an external HD that you backup daily or at least weekly to.

Mac's Time Machine makes this dead easy if you have the cash to blow (50%+ markup on the computer & $300 for the fancy NAS+Router). If that doesn't work for you I'd suggest skipping the local backup and going right for an online backup service like Crashplan, Backblaze, Carbonite, etc.

Since the most important part of a backup strategy is actually backing up, an automatic system that doesn't depend on you remembering to attach an external disk (and bring it with you on the road, when you'll be more likely to need it anyways) will give you a more reliable and dependable backup. As for price, $5/month for unlimited secure storage accessible anywhere compared to $100 for 1tb of "lose-able" storage, you make your choice.

 

[FACTplayers]

Mac's Time Machine makes this dead easy if you have the cash to blow (50%+ markup on the computer & $300 for the fancy NAS+Router). If that doesn't work for you I'd suggest skipping the local backup and going right for an online backup service like Crashplan, Backblaze, Carbonite, etc.

Since the most important part of a backup strategy is actually backing up, an automatic system that doesn't depend on you remembering to attach an external disk (and bring it with you on the road, when you'll be more likely to need it anyways) will give you a more reliable and dependable backup. As for price, $5/month for unlimited secure storage accessible anywhere compared to $100 for 1tb of "lose-able" storage, you make your choice.

Any HDD can be used as a time capsule. You don't have to spend the money on the apple branded one.

 

[chausman]

Any HDD can be used as a time capsule. You don't have to spend the money on the apple branded one.

And Time Machine will use any HDD, the Apple branded ones aren't any better then a lot cheaper larger storage devices. I would rather use something like Dropbox, because then, as long as you had Internet, you could back up, ave, or open any files, and automatically sync between multiple computers.


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- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[metti]

There is no software out there that can really push a good dell PC to its limits. Even with rendering huge files, you won't feel it.

While you make numerous good points in this post, this particular comment is pretty inaccurate. While it's true that the software used by the average computer user won't make a significant dent in the processing capacity of a good, modern computer and a decent workstation or even laptop can handle most audio and 2D CAD work, to say that "There is no software out there that can really push a good dell PC to its limits" is simply untrue. Rendering high resolution 3D designs take much longer on less mid-end workstations. In the video world, a good Dell can easily be bogged down to the point of uselessness by programs like After Effects. I recently did some programming for a multimedia installation in which we were running into significant performance issues with a brand new $9k Mac Pro rendering multiple streams of realtime HD video content. I think my computers would probably qualify as being more powerful than a good Dell and yet I can easily push them to their limits with a complex Isadora project.

The OP mentions WYSIWYG in particular and, depending on how they plan to use it, that could certainly push a good Dell to its limits, as could complicated Renderworks documents. Moving on to ProTools, while it is unlikely that the processor of a good Dell couldn't handle even a large ProTools project, the harddrive configuration could easily become a problem when working with many high quality tracks.

While you are quite possibly correct that a good workstation would be fine for the OP's needs, to say that it definitely is or to imply that it would be sufficient for anyone is a little bit of an over simplification of the issue.

 

[DuckJordan]

I have to agree with metti I have a dell PC custom configured and frequently wish for more Processor power and ram.. Only 2 gig each. As far as video card goes I have no issues but when your video card runs faster than your CPU then you start noticing frame skipping in the easiest of 3D drawings.

Honestly Computer building hasn't been too badly shaken up, if you do your research. Buy from reputable places and double check everything you should be good to go. The only things that I think could hold up this workstation project is how much workstation and how much gaming device it is. I can say from experience with several people when they put games on their workstation their work quickly declines.

 

[erosing]

I'm going into my senior year of undergraduate studies and looking to purchase a new computer...let me clarify - by purchase I mean build. I'm looking to build a workstation-like system, though it will be used for other purposes (specifically gaming...hey, a guy has to have his entertainment, right?). I've focused on Technical Direction and Sound Design throughout college, with a little bit of lighting and scenic thrown in for good measure. The system I'm looking for will be able to run programs like Vectorworks, AutoCAD, ProTools, WYSIWYG, and so forth with very few hiccups.

I have some questions, do you need this computer now, or do you just want it now? You listed off a lot of expensive software, do you expect to be able to purchase it all in the next year when you graduate, or did you already purchase it (as you're a senior I'm assuming this is your last year of free software)? If you are just graduating, do you really need three major CAD packages that all scream?

My suggestion is buy the software, then the computer, unless you can afford both at once. I wouldn't buy a great machine now for software you won't be buying for at least a year. Keep your current slower machine and wait until you are ready to buy the software, unless your current one is toasted, at which point I still wouldn't spend big money on a machine you want to scream with software you don't have yet, or at least wait until the 2012 editions come out in 3 months so you can know the specs.

While I understand that you want it for gaming too, you can build a great gaming machine for far less than you can a great rendering, pre-vis, CAD monster.

 

[tolienbosheit]

First, thank you everyone for the responses!

I have some questions, do you need this computer now, or do you just want it now? You listed off a lot of expensive software, do you expect to be able to purchase it all in the next year when you graduate, or did you already purchase it (as you're a senior I'm assuming this is your last year of free software)? If you are just graduating, do you really need three major CAD packages that all scream?

Here is my thought process:

1) I am looking for a desktop upgrade to my laptop. While my laptop is still fairly powerful, it is starting to show its age - primarily when rendering large light plots or detailed ground plans. The system freezes into uselessness sometime, other times I have only minor issues. My Laptop is still my portable system, but I would like to have a machine with a better response time at home.

2) Having spoken to the Fin Aid department at school, they will lend students money for professional investments (instruments, computers, software - expensive purchases applicable to your field of study) at good rates. While it is still a loan, it gets bundled in with your school-loan payments...a little bit easier to handle, a little bit easier to work with.

3) Software: I'm not necessarily planning to purchase all of said software, but was using it for a reference point. Primary investments would be ProTools and Vectorworks.

4) Gaming: I know I like video games. I find it a much better way to spend free time than watching TV or movies, just personal preference. My laptop can run most anything I need it to right now (though it's not the prettiest thing you've ever seen...). The big reason for bringing it up is through my research have heard a lot about why a workstation-style card is not good for gaming, but very little about why a gaming card may (or may not be) good for rendering programs. I don't want to drop a bunch of money (especially with some of it being a loan) without a bit of research first. I know I tend to use my computer for entertainment in addition to doing my work on it - and that I will want to going forward too.


Right now I'm looking for thoughts and opinions before I deciding if I'll forge ahead and spend the money. My biggest concern is one that has been reinforced here...I don't quite know where I'll be six months from now (Might be on campus, might in partaking in our NYC program), and I don't know where I'll be a year from now (Finishing up a summerstock gig? Looking to head out professionally? Looking at heading to another country for a Fulbright? Looking at moving into a graduate studies program?).

 

[CrazyTechie]

I've found that Tom's Hardware: Hardware News, Tests and Reviews is a good place to go when searching for info about parts for computers.

Take a look at the threads from this search as well as try some other keywords and verbiage as well.

If all else fails I would maybe post your question there as well with specifics about what you are possibly looking at and what you are trying to accomplish and see what comes up.

 

[Footer]

While you make numerous good points in this post, this particular comment is pretty inaccurate. While it's true that the software used by the average computer user won't make a significant dent in the processing capacity of a good, modern computer and a decent workstation or even laptop can handle most audio and 2D CAD work, to say that "There is no software out there that can really push a good dell PC to its limits" is simply untrue. Rendering high resolution 3D designs take much longer on less mid-end workstations. In the video world, a good Dell can easily be bogged down to the point of uselessness by programs like After Effects. I recently did some programming for a multimedia installation in which we were running into significant performance issues with a brand new $9k Mac Pro rendering multiple streams of realtime HD video content. I think my computers would probably qualify as being more powerful than a good Dell and yet I can easily push them to their limits with a complex Isadora project.

The OP mentions WYSIWYG in particular and, depending on how they plan to use it, that could certainly push a good Dell to its limits, as could complicated Renderworks documents. Moving on to ProTools, while it is unlikely that the processor of a good Dell couldn't handle even a large ProTools project, the harddrive configuration could easily become a problem when working with many high quality tracks.

While you are quite possibly correct that a good workstation would be fine for the OP's needs, to say that it definitely is or to imply that it would be sufficient for anyone is a little bit of an over simplification of the issue.

Yes, you are going to feel it. However, the OP is in college, go have a beer and come back in 15 minutes instead of 10 minutes. A 600 dollar Dell Inspiron PC with an i5 processor is going to do everything the OP needs to do. Yes, it could be better, but at this point its not going to kill him to be a bit slower. There is a difference between render times and actually running the software. Rendering can ALWAYS be faster. This is one reason I wish WYG has a "render server" that I could run on another machine while I work on my production machine. The dell will run pro-tools fine. When he goes to compress his files or mixdown, it might take longer, but is an extra 5 minute saved really worth an extra grand for a computer that is only 20% faster? No. Its not. If he is taking out loans to pay for it, it certainly is not. The computer that cost a grand now, at 6% interest over 10 years, is now going to cost 1300 bucks. So, is that faster computer going to save you 700 bucks of time, especially for something that is going to be collecting dust in your parents basement in a year?

The real world sucks. No one makes any money in this business. When you get out of school, you will be either poorer then you ever have been in your life or living in your parents basement. Save your money now while you can. Loans REALLY suck. Don't go into debt over this. If you must take out a loan, get exactly what you need to do what you need to do. If you can use a campus computer lab, do. You don't NEED a slick computer to do theatre work. If an employer wants you to use a computer to do something, they will supply it or you can rent studio time for the gig and bill it out. No one carts a desktop into their work that they personally own. Not worth it. Technology moves too fast to keep up with it, you will go broke trying.

 

[Van]

I'm upgrading to AutoCAD 2011. the recommended Graphics card is a Nvidia Quadro 6000. it start's retail at 3,200.00 I won't be buying one for my new workstation. Someone mentioned that "the only difference between a workastion card and a gaming card isthe drivers." That is wrong. The Technology base is the same but the loading of the rendering engines and manner in which processes are off loaded is extremely different. Bottom line, you could easily spend $10k for a good workstation, Don't. Go buy last months issue of Maximum PC and build their $600.00 screamer < if you are bound and determined to DIY> It'll do everything you want and play games and you can upgrade down the line. When you are a Rich and Famous Lighting Designer.