Control/Dimming Cabling from dimmers to fixtures

[Jekyll]

Hi all,

I have been given a very difficult situation that I am trying to solve, and unfortunately am not having much luck online.

There was an accident at a local high school 2 years ago (a falling fixture booted off a catwalk) which prompted the school board to tour all the schools in the district investigating all venues. When they visited the school I work with, I was told by the tradesmen that cabling from dimmers to lights was illegal! I was floored to hear this since all of our cabling is either 12/3 properly rated cables and connectors, or 12gauge Soca multi-cable that runs between our dimmers backstage and our electrics around the theatre. The students know that they are forbidden to use typical garden (orange) extension cables. And the school has been very good about providing necessary funds to make sure any cabling we use is properly rated.

I have not been able to find anything in writing discussing cabling standards in live theatre (Canada would be most useful information but anything in writing anywhere would help my cause). I know for a fact that shows on Broadway (lets take "Cats" for an example) ran for almost 18 years (according to IBDB). I seriously doubt (I actually know for a fact) that the circuiting was installed and probably stayed there for the full 18 years, unless something wore out and needed replacement.

Can anyone provide me written proof that properly rated cabling or multi-cables from dimmer packs to fixtures is acceptable?

Thanks so much for your help.

Cheers,
Darren

 

[gafftapegreenia]

At any point is the SOOW running through a plenum space? What about through door ways or through fire walls without the proper chase holes?

Or perhaps they felt that "temporary" cable was being used a in a more permanent manner? I'm assuming your dimmers are of the rolling, portable kind tied into a switch. See this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/22063-extension-cords-commercial-building.html

 

[derekleffew]

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...-portable-lighting-system-use.html#post195198, especially post#13:

First let's take a look at the NEC definition of "portable" from Article 520:

Portable Equipment. Equipment fed with portable cords or cables intended to be moved from one place to another.

The NEC acknowledges that some theatres (notably Broadway theatres) are buildings designed for use with only portable equipment (the "four wall" model). In such theatres there is no practical limit to the time a portable system can be used, since there is nothing but a portable system.

The NEC is silent on time limits for portable systems. Providing the system is installed in a code-compliant manner, most AHJ's will accept unlimited installation time.

Now let's look at where portable cord use is permitted and not permitted:

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:
(1) Pendants
(2) Wiring of luminaires
(3) Connection of portable luminaires, portable and mobile signs, or appliances
(4) Elevator cables
(5) Wiring of cranes and hoists
(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange
(7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection
(9) Connection of moving parts
(10) Where specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code

Point 10 means "Article 520 venues" in our case.

400.8 Uses Not Permitted.
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:
(1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
(2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
(3) Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
(4) Where attached to building surfaces
Exception to (4): Flexible cord and cable shall be permitted to be attached to building surfaces in accordance with the provisions of 368.56(B)
(5) Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
(6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code
(7) Where subject to physical damage

Point 1 above might provide an AHJ a reason to require permanent wiring, unless the theatre was specifically intended to utilize only portable equipment. In such a case, the only permanent wiring might be the feed to a Company Switch, and circuits connected to FOH positions through a Road Show Connection Panel in order to comply with (2) above.

Bottom line: I do not think an AHJ could or would require permanent wiring if a portable system complies with NEC requirements.

ST

EDIT: Darren, just noticed your location. Not to re-open the NEC vs. CEC wound, but I can't speak to the differences, if any, on this topic.

 

[JD]

I was floored to hear this since all of our cabling is either 12/3 properly rated cables

SO or SJ ? Not sure about there but here in the states 12/3 SJ would be a problem outside of some very specific applications.

 

[tk2k]

Hi all,
I was told by the tradesmen that cabling from dimmers to lights was illegal!

This may be a dumb question, but how the hell does one define 'cabling' in this case? I worked for Sleep No More, and our electrical load in was all portable 3phase racks cabled out to fixtures. Again I cannot speak to canada, but that seems crazy. Did he provide any possible solutions? Did he want everything run via conduit?

 

[Jekyll]

Honestly, I completely agree with you, tk2k.

Basically, its a fine-arts school...so we are not a typical high school with 12 lights and 6 dimmers. The current musical we are doing has 98 conventional fixtures, 4 Rosco I-cues, 10 scrollers, 2 dataflashes and ETC Ion. We are running almost every single lamp on its own dimmer. Only a few (I think a total of 10 x Altman 6" 500 watt fresnels) are two-ferred together in pairs (5 dimmers worth). And 99% of our gear is very low wattage. Selecon PC's (650w), Selecon Fresnels (650w), Source 4 lekos (575w), Source 4 pars (575w) and Altman 6" fresnels (500w). So there is no way it is a cable overload issue.

Only FOH 1 and 2 (which are flown electrics above the audience) have circuits that are conduit-run from the ceiling above to a patch bay backstage beside the dimmers (2 @ ETC Sensor 24x2.4kw and 2 @ Strand CD80 12x2.4kw packs totally 72 dimmers). But all the onstage electrics (4 of them to be exact) have no permanent circuits at or near them from the dimmers.

Now, these guys I am referring to are typical city union employees. We have had many issues with them already. They are, unfortunately, the type who want their job protected, so we follow the rules and call them in (for instance) to move draperies cause they say they MUST do that work (even though I am union and qualified to do every job they do for us). So we call them in, they show up (2 days late, 4 hours late on the day they arrive) and then look up and tell us there is no way they will get up a ladder to move or take down a piece of drapery or track, and tell us to do it ourselves. So...back to square one!! Doing what we were gonna do ourselves anyway.

I completely understand the safety aspects, especially in a secondary school where we are dealing with young students with impressionable minds. Which is why I have insisted on using only properly rated gear etc.

So...maybe the best thing I should ask everyone here is...is there a difference between having "Socapex" (Multicable) running from dimmers to lights or cables (12/3 etc). If Soca is considered acceptable feeder to get from dimmers to lights, then I will just have all the single runs of cable removed and replaced with more Soca (since as I mentioned before, Broadway runs for decades sometimes with the same Socas in the air the entire time). If, however, they insist (and I cannot provide valid evidence to back up my beliefs), I will be providing them with a rather hefty quote for replacing everything (including dimmers) with a hard-wired 96way rack and raceways on every LX in the theatre. Considering the teachers work-to-rule and money obviously being tight, this doesn't make much sense unless there is an actual fire hazard in the making.

And for anyone who may be thinking about asking...all of our cable is bought from and made by Christie Lites. So yes, it is all properly rated (I'm sorry I do not know the exact SJ code or whatever with me) for exactly what they are being built for. The fact is, the tradesmen from the school board didn't actually look in detail at any of the cable. They just saw black runs of cable from the FOH coming backstage to the dimmers. And they insisted that "extension cables" were a very short-term use thing...plug in, use for 5 minutes, coil up and put away.

Any thoughts? Especially on the Soca issue? I will pop into the school tomorrow and see if I can get the actual jacket code off of the cables we use.

Thanks.
D

UPDATE: Just had one of my students check one of the cables in use for me. The one he looked at was coded SJOOW (Which I believe means "Junior Hard Service Grade Oil Resistant Outdoor"). Will check tomorrow anyway to confirm this.

 

[avkid]

Are these guys IBEW?

 

[Jekyll]

Are these guys IBEW?

No, I believe they are all CUPE (Canadian Union of Public Employees). The School Boards all have collective agreements with this union and these guys take care of the schools (engineers, maintenance guys, etc etc etc). The guys who came into the school 1.5 years ago and did the inspections most likely had general knowledge of electricity etc, but were more there for safety purposes than anything. Although I cannot say either way since I just know they they were employees of the school board stores which makes them CUPE.

 

[Footer]

I'm not at all versed in Canadian code.... but.... in (spoken in my best Texan) in America...

SJOOW cable should not be there for any length over a 3'. So, yes, that needs to go. Replace it with some sort of SO cable. Odds are your "inspector" does not know this anyway. Second, any and all exposed cabling in a theatre should be inspected regularly. My venue runs in a hard rep plot. All of our cable is zip tied up. Most of it has been there for years. A year and a half ago we replaced all the cable in both theatres because the stuff was so brittle due to age it was falling apart in the air. Granted, this stuff was 15 years old, but it does happen. There is something to be said for installed raceways in this instance. There is really nothing wrong with your setup. Many theatres are set up that way. To be safe all you really need to do is inspect all your cable regularly. I would also pull everything down once a year and really go through it. Even on the long term shows, gear is constantly pulled out of service and evaluated.

Second, I would tell the "union" guys to go F themselves. Your teaching at a performing arts school. The point of the school is to give students hands on experience doing the craft. If they can't touch a curtain then they are losing out on their education.

 

[tk2k]

Okay here's what I can tell you from a USA perspective, but I have one question

Only FOH 1 and 2 (which are flown electrics above the audience) have circuits that are conduit-run from the ceiling above to a patch bay backstage beside the dimmers (2 @ ETC Sensor 24x2.4kw and 2 @ Strand CD80 12x2.4kw packs totally 72 dimmers). But all the onstage electrics (4 of them to be exact) have no permanent circuits at or near them from the dimmers.

What does this exactly mean?
a: Are your dimmers in the same physical space as your electrics?
b: On the dimmer-rack side of things, your patch bay is external or internal? i.e do you have 96 leads coming off your dimmers that you plug into a stage pin patch bay, that runs into your multicables ( a la with audio)?

There's a few possibilities I can see here. Many of the theaters I have worked in have the dimmers in a separate room and SOCA them to several 'tie in' points, where you then connect them to the breakout SOCA that runs along the electric. Now, those are all hard-wired in on the dimmer end of things, that COULD be your problem. What you are doing in their minds is using the SOCAs as, effectively, long jumper cables, as opposed to 'power distribution' units. Could be there?

Now, your broadway example does make complete sense, however keep in mind those ARE temporary installations, its 10 years, but the assumption is that gear is leaving, it is not the house equipment. I know it's a very small difference, but if these guys are going 'by the code' that could be your problem. Granted, I am not a union electrician, this is just going off of 'what i've picked up'

Do you have any theater design companies around? it never hurts to get a second opinion. If that is the issue, it should be an easy fix. Just hardwire you SOCAs

 

[Jekyll]

SJOOW cable should not be there for any length over a 3'. So, yes, that needs to go. Replace it with some sort of SO cable. Odds are your "inspector" does not know this anyway. Second, any and all exposed cabling in a theatre should be inspected regularly.

Thanks for the insight, Footer. Much appreciated. I probably should have made it clear in my original posting that at least 50% of the added cable and socas belong to me, as well as the moving lighting gear and extra Strand dimmers. So that gear comes and goes a couple times a year, as it gets used in other theatres for other shows.

Also, the school shows only tend to run for 6 performances (over 2 weeks). And the stage area lighting tends to get used for various lectures etc for students. But the entire system only really gets "used" when I design and install and program the shows for the "Theatre Company" musicals.

Finally,

I would tell the "union" guys to go F themselves. Your teaching at a performing arts school. The point of the school is to give students hands on experience doing the craft. If they can't touch a curtain then they are losing out on their education.

I definitely thought about it...however, as a union member (different union) that would be very bad "behaviour" for me. So I am taking the higher road and doing my best to research this entire issue and not prove them wrong but just make sure I am doing what needs to be done to make sure I am not breaking any code.

Thanks for your help!
D

 

[Jekyll]

Tk2k,

I know without photos it is difficult to make things clear. But I shall do my best and hopefully it will be easier to understand.

The school owns 2 x ETC Sensor 24x2.4kw dimmer PACKS (not racks hardwired). These dimmer packs have 24 UG duplex outlets on them and the packs are connected with cam-locks to the service. The lighting fixtures (for the two FOH pipes) are hung on 40 foot long schedule 40 winched pipes that hang roughly 10 feet below the theatre ceiling. The pipes and winches were all installed by Stagefab here in Vancouver (probably 8-10 years ago).

These two pipes have 10 foot long female UG tails hard-wired into junction boxes (most likely by the school board tradesmen) that can be lowered through the ceiling to the pipes below. Then, the male UG connectors are all numbered next to the dimmer packs (Upstage Right) and are then plugged into the dimmers as needed.

All the onstage electrics, as I mentioned, have no circuits above them, so they have socas (and a few single 12/3 runs) that power the various fixtures. They have breakouts at the lamp end, and breakins at the dimmer end to patch just like the patch bay has. However, these inspectors/tradesmen were not looking specifically at the the dimmers and circuiting. They literally looked up, saw a loom (not actually bundled as I know that creates excess heat over time) of black cables coming from the FOH ceiling to the dimmers and barked that this was illegal and that extensions (I don't think they've ever seen Soca before) should be temporary 5 minute uses (power tool or whatever) then coil up and put away.

As I mentioned to Footer above, since 50% of the gear belongs to me personally, it rarely stays in the school when shows are not in production. So most of the time, my cabling and all the excess lighting is only in use for maybe 2 weeks of tech then 2 weeks of performances. That's it.

Of course, i would love to replace all this soca and single runs of cable (not that much, maybe 6-7 socas and 6 single AC's) with raceways...but it all comes down to the school board approving the money. So if these guys push their agenda, I will just have to put forth my expensive raceway and new rack proposal which they will have to accept so the union backs off.

Thanks, Tk2k.

 

[Footer]

Tk2k,

I know without photos it is difficult to make things clear. But I shall do my best and hopefully it will be easier to understand.

The school owns 2 x ETC Sensor 24x2.4kw dimmer PACKS (not racks hardwired). These dimmer packs have 24 UG duplex outlets on them and the packs are connected with cam-locks to the service. The lighting fixtures (for the two FOH pipes) are hung on 40 foot long schedule 40 winched pipes that hang roughly 10 feet below the theatre ceiling. The pipes and winches were all installed by Stagefab here in Vancouver (probably 8-10 years ago).

These two pipes have 10 foot long female UG tails hard-wired into junction boxes (most likely by the school board tradesmen) that can be lowered through the ceiling to the pipes below. Then, the male UG connectors are all numbered next to the dimmer packs (Upstage Right) and are then plugged into the dimmers as needed.

All the onstage electrics, as I mentioned, have no circuits above them, so they have socas (and a few single 12/3 runs) that power the various fixtures. They have breakouts at the lamp end, and breakins at the dimmer end to patch just like the patch bay has. However, these inspectors/tradesmen were not looking specifically at the the dimmers and circuiting. They literally looked up, saw a loom (not actually bundled as I know that creates excess heat over time) of black cables coming from the FOH ceiling to the dimmers and barked that this was illegal and that extensions (I don't think they've ever seen Soca before) should be temporary 5 minute uses (power tool or whatever) then coil up and put away.

As I mentioned to Footer above, since 50% of the gear belongs to me personally, it rarely stays in the school when shows are not in production. So most of the time, my cabling and all the excess lighting is only in use for maybe 2 weeks of tech then 2 weeks of performances. That's it.

Of course, i would love to replace all this soca and single runs of cable (not that much, maybe 6-7 socas and 6 single AC's) with raceways...but it all comes down to the school board approving the money. So if these guys push their agenda, I will just have to put forth my expensive raceway and new rack proposal which they will have to accept so the union backs off.

Thanks, Tk2k.

So, essentially you have a road show transfer switch for FOH and are doing single runs for overstage. These guys don't think that you should ever use an extension cord. I have actually heard that statement from a fire marshal before, however she did not apply it to our industry. The only other option they have is to install raceways and give you a proper transfer panel for overstage to patch in your dimmers. I assume they already followed code for your FOH panel and installed a breaker on every circuit.

I did walk into one theatre once that had about 150 circuits accross their room and no cable. At some point someone told them cable was bad... along with two-fers. They were told if they did not have a circuit to plug a light directly into they should not hang the light there. Dumb. That is essentially what you are being told. Either educate them on how this industry actually works, have them install raceways that drops a circuit ever 9", or you/they hit the road.

To this day some of my favorite arguments are with building ops guys. I do find though that they can be taught to see what it is we actually do. It takes some trust as well.

 

[Jekyll]

Hahahaha...

Wow, that actually made me laugh! Thanks Kyle.

Out of the 40-odd circuits currently located in the patch bay, no...there are no breakers on anything. There are UG male tails of approximately 3 feet each hanging waiting patiently to be plugged into a dimmer (the packs sit beside the patch bay). And same goes for the ceiling where the female UG tails are...no breakers anywhere other than the individual dimmer cards themselves.

I have heard the same stuff you've heard from that 150circuit theatre. Not officially or anything. But I was also told 25 years ago that Two-fers were illegal. The only legal two-fer had to be molded plastic (single cable into the male connector which would then go into a molded section where the two female tails came out of). Of course, I have never seen these in use in the real world. In fact, I have not seen the molded plastic two-fers since that day 25 years ago. Everyone I have ever talked to or worked with or venues I have been in all have regular two-fers (two female tails coming out of a single male cap - usually twistlock though). Although I am finding more and more that two-fers are not being used as most spaces I have been in have more and more dimmers available.

To be honest, to save me a lot of time, I would love for these "guys" to force this issue enough that I say "fine...give me a 96way rack hardwired with raceways on every single LX. We shall see what happens though.

As for all the other comments that have been made here, I am starting to assume that if (let's say) a female soca connector is mounted to the wall and sent backstage through conduit with short tails as a breakout and then a short soca run is then connected from the female to the lighting instruments, this is considered okay?

I honestly cannot see a major difference in running a 25ft soca cable from a set of lights to a patch bay (or hard wired rack) or running a 100ft soca cable straight from the dimmers to the lights. Neither is permanent in my eyes. You are gonna disconnect both at some time as you hang and move gear around a theatre...or at least once a year as you clean gear and check for damage and age.

Anyway, I have a feeling once I supply them with a quote for everything they will need to do, they will probably back off. Cause I can guarantee the renovations needed to follow their beliefs in theatre lighting and electricity is gonna come to at least $100,000.

 

[derekleffew]

Jekyll, some terms for you (click on the words to be taken to the wiki definition): V-style, Y-style, Road Show Connection Panel, W-style.
.

 

[church]

Jekyl

you may find the following Ontario document "Television, Film, Live Performance and Event
Electrical Guidelines" issued by the Ontario Electrical Safety Authority as an addendum to the Ontario Electrical Safety Code an interesting read.

http://www.safetyinentertainment.or...o Electrical Safety Authority-SPEC-003-R5.pdf

This document also covers all of the definitions including Socapex.

Section 66 of the Ontario Electrical Safety Code and Section 44. Section 44 addresses theatre installations.

British Columbia will have something similar because each of the Provoncial codes reflect the Canadian Code

 

[sk8rsdad]

Jekyl

you may find the following Ontario document "Television, Film, Live Performance and Event
Electrical Guidelines" issued by the Ontario Electrical Safety Authority as an addendum to the Ontario Electrical Safety Code an interesting read.

That particular document was crafted as a guide for travelling shows. The lexicon is a great reference.

The legitimate area of dispute is whether this venue should be using a touring system or a permanent installation. Since the CEC costs $175, purchasing a copy for the purpose of providing a definitive answer is beyond my budget. Citing the CEC doesn't matter anyway since there may be any number of provincial, municipal, or school board policies that could apply to the OP's venue. The AHJ trumps any other opinions.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

So, if the raceway that gets installed to solve this "extension cord" problem uses not panel mount connectors, but rather SOOW pigtails, will the facilities people have a fit about that?

 

[JD]

I think before any changes are made, you should request (in writing) a description of what codes are in violation so that "the proper repairs and changes can be made to insure the safe operation of the facility."

Otherwise, a lot of work could be done and they come back saying they are still not happy.

The whole thing, in my own opinion, is nothing more than a misguided bulling attempt by someone (or several) that want to assert their authority to justify their existence!

One fast note about Soca; It is an "engineered portable cable" so it is not code (at least in the US) for permanent install. Whenever that many conductors are carried in the same case (conduit or raceway), they are de-rated in capacity.

 

[Jekyll]

Thanks JD,

Actually, I believe what these lost, misguided soles are after is doing the upgrades themselves hahaha. They are not just walking in, making broad comments and then walking away expecting us to fix it.

This is why I am hunting for exact clarification on the BC electrical code for live theatre so that I know exactly what to tell them to do to "fix the problems" they say are there.

I think what confuses me most is that hundreds of theatres across Canada for sure (I work for 3!) have hard-wired dimmer racks with female soca connectors around the venue to connect soca and breakouts (or breakout boxes) to and then connect lights to. If this is so "illegal", why are theatre architects specing this gear to be installed in theatres? If it must be "circuit direct from the dimmers right above every single lamp in use" then I want to see that sort of thing in writing somewhere. If cabling from a "circuit" to a lighting fixture, is there a limit on distance? Time it can be used in this fashion?

And yes, I completely agree...they are just bullying. They, I know for a fact, dont actually want to do any work at all. They are famous for wanting to visit a school and have coffee with custodians for 6 hours then go home. That's why the drapery issue last year came out the way it did. They saw that it was real work and told us to do it ourselves, and then went and had coffee. I have had various colleagues (including a guy who walked through the schools 2 years ago after the accident) who did reports on things that were wrong. And the circuiting was never mentioned in our report. Only a couple of poorly installed lighting pipes that have been there before I arrived. Still waiting for them to change those too.