Convincing a director...

[DuckJordan]

How do I convince a director to put the cyc behind the set instead of trying to use it as the act curtain?

We are doing winnie the pooh this summer and he has it in his head he wants a his cyc drop on line set 1 to use as an act curtain.

And yes before you ask we have a grand drape that works and is new condition.

 

[jglodeklights]

That is a strange one. Granted, you could backlight it and make it pretty after all....................

And you are sure he means the big white thing and not the big black (usually) thing with thousands of little holes that allows you to see it as opaque when front lit and semi-transparent when objects behind it are lit while it is not?

 

[TimMiller]

FYI the "black thing with all of the little holes in it" is called a scrim it works wonders for stage illusions. As stated it can be front lit and everything behind it disappears or back lit and the scrim appears invisible. It also helps keep fog (especially low lying) in place if you don't want it rolling out into the house quickly

 

[JWilsonLX]

What does the director want to put in place of the cyc?

 

[DuckJordan]

Back lighting the cyc (and yes he does mean the giant white thing, this isn't my first rodeo.) is honestly a waste of lights and time. As far as his plans for what to put in place of the cyc he hasn't told me (his sets generally cover most of the back anyway (hes a huge fan of large flats making the stage a giant box.) but I'm betting he is going to just use the black traveler mid stage. He is also a fan of making it hard to use a 3rd and 4th electric on a 40 ft wide stage. He's made it almost impossible in the past to do anything but a general wash (no specials).

 

[Kelite]

He is also a fan of making it hard to use a 3rd and 4th electric on a 40 ft wide stage. He's made it almost impossible in the past to do anything but a general wash (no specials).

What a bummer, Duck. Why have all the positions if you can't (won't) use them? And NO SPECIALS? Whahhhh?


Sorry for your misfortune. Really.

 

[jglodeklights]

PS, not my first rodeo either, and I know it isn't Duck's. I know it is a scrim and I know Duck knows what a CYC is. However, always have to check to see if the director knows what they mean.

And that sucks some major somethings. Crazy directors.

 

[Footer]

Does director=Scenic Designer? If so, your going to have to deal with it. If you have a huge issue, take it up with the artistic director. However, in the world of theatre the level of importance goes like this....

Costumes
Sets
Props
Lighting
Sound

Unless of course this is musical theatre, sound comes before lighting.

Thats just the way it is. Artisticly, you can try to get what you want, but don't expect much. 9 time out of 10, the scenic designer will always win.

Also, I have seen plenty of shows use a cyc as their main rag. Movin' Out did this and it looked great. It does give a different look that I personally like. Its not unheard of doing. Grab a few units FOH, throw a color in them, and deal with it.

 

[DuckJordan]

Footer the job titles here go director (who takes the hats for artistic director as well) and I'd love to do that but with a 20 circuit FOH cat and a procenium opening of 40 foot plus an apron almost as deep as the stage but wider my FOH is taken up just on trying get lights on faces which is why I want to try and convince him to leave the cyc where its at and pull back a bit from the audience.

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[NevilleLighting]

I can see that you already know just how horrific this is going to look. That thing is going to glow like a big white bed sheet. It is going to be near impossible to keep light off of it if anything happens downstage. Even the house lighting has a good chance of washing out a lot of what you might do to light if depending on the architecture of your space. White cycs have an ability to gather every stray photon and spit it back at the audience since that is what they are meant to do.

Since he wants this on line 1 I will assume that this means you are now limited to FOH lighting. You will most likely not be able to light any action happening downstage of that. From the posts it seems like this might be likely. The angles just don't work to keep light off it no matter how carefully you shutter. Also, unless all of your lights are perfectly bench focused, with perfectly clean mirrors and lenses, and brand new, not scratched and scuffed gel, you are going to have a fair amount of scatter light coming out of your lights.

If this is truly just used as an act curtain, and your house lighting does not spill onto lineset #1, then the question goes to what are your front-of-house capabilities? Do you have the positions, lights and circuits to paint this effectively? Is there a balcony rail? Do your box booms, if any, go low enough to do an effective crosslight wash? Is your budget enough to buy a lot of color and patterns? You could do a lovely abstraction of the Hundred Acre Wood with color and pattern. A balcony rail is best, box booms or catwalks are okay. The flatter the angle the truer your pattern shapes.

It will take a drastic realignment of how you may be used to using your frontlight equipment. Although challenging this could be a good mental exercise for you.

As far as dealing with directors, that one gets tougher. You are limited by physics, logistics as far as budget, circuits, equipment, etc. After that the only remaining limit becomes you and what you are willing and capable of accomplishing. On the surface this seems like a bad, bad idea, but I think it could actually be a really good idea depending on how it is used. I've had a long career as a lighting designer and over the years I have learned that I need to trust others more. Many directors have come to me with crazy ideas. Some are too crazy but some I dismiss at first and then think they may be on to something. Sometimes I have had great results by trusting and then pushing that idea to the best of my abilities. Sometimes it fails. Sometimes it's great but at least I tried and pushed my boundaries. My advice to you, go for it if you think there is any way that you can accomplish this. Don't think "but this is how we do it." If we all thought that way we'd still be doing shows in sunlight with bear baiting (Google it) and none of us would have a job.

 

[JChenault]

How do I convince a director to put the cyc behind the set instead of trying to use it as the act

To get back to the original question, I would try to understand what it is the director is trying to accomplish. Duck has given us the directors perceived solution to some problem or vision in his head. What he has to do is to discover what that vision is.

Without knowing the personalities involved I would probably ask the director "I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by putting the cyc in the first pipe. Can you explain your vision to me?

 

[DuckJordan]

This is all great advice, Unfortunately this is a director without any sort of vision. He is the kind who tries things and decides halfway through a run to change anything.

@NevilleLighting, I would absolutely agree with you about using an amazing rendering of the hundred acre wood on the cyc, its just my FOH limits me to just 20 fixtures consisting of 10-15 year old colortran units ranging from 20*-50*, and with a budget of 0.00, I'm unable to rent anything remotely useable let alone buy gel or gobo's. There is talk here about certain facilities manager (which in this case is also the director) who figures once you buy lights you shouldn't have to put anymore than $10 a year into the budget. So after his first show which he decides he wants to put tons of R12 into the budget is used up.

The house is set-up like a standard auditorium with a large open space with a balcony(with rail, also un-usable, I already asked). The house are just standard round par lamp holders that spill light everywhere. and it being on the 1st is putting it right behind the fire curtain, literally. so it will wash everything out in front. fortunately he likes his sets too much and it will be used as just an act curtain. My issues with trying to convince him is he has pushed me so far into a corner with my designs the most i'm goign to be able to do as far as any design work is throw two lights on the mezzanines located SL + SR and throw some texture on the floor (all in house gobo's which the only two matching were 2 leaf breakups).

I'd have to say that I've done more design work just talking with my LD at college about his designs than I will with this show.


With all that said the script I won't get until about 3 weeks away from doors open. And its likely to change since he is making the script up with the students. I have so far just a few absolutes which still have tons of variables that are going to change.

1. He is not going to use the main red traveler for the act curtain.
2. Winnie the pooh is going to be in a tree.
3. I have no budget.

I'm honestly thinking about telling him that I can't do a design with this much constraint. He has in the past tried to do everything on his own and is still in that habit I just hope that on thursday when i talk with him about the production. I'll be able to at least convince him to use something else than the cyc and put the cyc back where it should be so i can use cyc lights.


P.S. I will get pictures of the space up ASAP, it will show much better than I can describe.

 

[Ric]

Have you actually told him that in your experienced opinion it will look bad, really bad?

Sometimes you have to be blunt with them, then take the time to explain why it's a bad idea. They may not see as many productions or work with as many designs as you do so their experience may be limited to their own shows. An honest sit down and discussion, with the goal to be trying to find a good solution to the problem may be all that's needed.

Ask if they've seen this idea working on some show, and to point out pictures to you so that you can get an idea of what they're looking for. As has been mentioned perhaps they believe it will work like a scrim.

If the problem for you is that it makes uneccessary work, then that may need to be explained as well. Perhaps a list of the pro's and cons to show the director may be what they need to really understand where your coming from. Try and look at it from their point of view (which can sometimes be bizzarely different). It's 'their show', and in the end as techs our job is to provide a slate for their artwork to be drawn on.
Something outside the norm may just be ground breaking ( even if we think it's crap !)

 

[DuckJordan]

Have you actually told him that in your experienced opinion it will look bad, really bad?

Sometimes you have to be blunt with them, then take the time to explain why it's a bad idea. They may not see as many productions or work with as many designs as you do so their experience may be limited to their own shows. An honest sit down and discussion, with the goal to be trying to find a good solution to the problem may be all that's needed.

Ask if they've seen this idea working on some show, and to point out pictures to you so that you can get an idea of what they're looking for. As has been mentioned perhaps they believe it will work like a scrim.

If the problem for you is that it makes uneccessary work, then that may need to be explained as well. Perhaps a list of the pro's and cons to show the director may be what they need to really understand where your coming from. Try and look at it from their point of view (which can sometimes be bizzarely different). It's 'their show', and in the end as techs our job is to provide a slate for their artwork to be drawn on.
Something outside the norm may just be ground breaking ( even if we think it's crap !)

I understand where you are coming from and for others who are in the same situation it may help them. Unfortunately this used to be my high school director and since this will be my first design outside of college, he may not listen to that voice of reason. Not to mention he is the kind of guy who takes things personally and feels that he can do no wrong... (egotistical kind of guy...) With that said only Thursday's meeting will tell what he is thinking for it. And no he is not trying to use it as a scrim, They own one and its already in the air. Again he said its for use as the act curtain.

A small little background to help understand him. He used to be the technical director while we had another director on site who was his mentor and trainer. He worked about 10 years under his guidance and was the "technical" director. I use the term "technical" loosely, he did build sets but it was from a one or two show college experience. He is the standard English teacher turned drama instructor person.

With that said, I have seen him do some amazing things with sets as far as tech devices being built. such a huge house that turned a full 180 on a single swivel point. He is a fairly smart person but is generally lost with anything not being instructed of him... Kind of the I can do it but someone else has to give me the idea first.

 

[shiben]

I understand where you are coming from and for others who are in the same situation it may help them. Unfortunately this used to be my high school director and since this will be my first design outside of college, he may not listen to that voice of reason. Not to mention he is the kind of guy who takes things personally and feels that he can do no wrong... (egotistical kind of guy...) With that said only Thursday's meeting will tell what he is thinking for it. And no he is not trying to use it as a scrim, They own one and its already in the air. Again he said its for use as the act curtain.

A small little background to help understand him. He used to be the technical director while we had another director on site who was his mentor and trainer. He worked about 10 years under his guidance and was the "technical" director. I use the term "technical" loosely, he did build sets but it was from a one or two show college experience. He is the standard English teacher turned drama instructor person.

With that said, I have seen him do some amazing things with sets as far as tech devices being built. such a huge house that turned a full 180 on a single swivel point. He is a fairly smart person but is generally lost with anything not being instructed of him... Kind of the I can do it but someone else has to give me the idea first.

Those are always fun. I would just start a discussion of why he wants the cyc there and figure out what he wants. If you can come up with a better option, he might go for it. Otherwise, im not sure what other options you have... b-b-s this maybe?

 

[DuckJordan]

Those are always fun. I would just start a discussion of why he wants the cyc there and figure out what he wants. If you can come up with a better option, he might go for it. Otherwise, im not sure what other options you have... b-b-s this maybe?

what does b-b-s mean?

 

[shiben]

what does b-b-s mean?

beg borrow steal

 

[LuxMax]

Looks like there is no convincing this director that he isn't quite seeing the big picture.
What I have done in situations like this is calmly explain the reasons why it is better to have the cyc where it belongs vs. where he wants it to go based on all of your constraints in the theater you are working in. Also try to tie in other aspects (costumes, scenic, etc) to your reasoning so it doesn't sound like you are pushing to do it just for lighting's sake. Say something like it will provide more depth to the scenes, provide a better contrast between the actors and the scenery, make the costumes stand out better, etc, etc.
The cyc will be far more useful for many other parts of the production rather than just an act curtain. If he still doesn't budge, let him have his way but always make sure you let him know upfront all the reasons why you know it won't work.

 

[DuckJordan]

Looks like there is no convincing this director that he isn't quite seeing the big picture.
What I have done in situations like this is calmly explain the reasons why it is better to have the cyc where it belongs vs. where he wants it to go based on all of your constraints in the theater you are working in. Also try to tie in other aspects (costumes, scenic, etc) to your reasoning so it doesn't sound like you are pushing to do it just for lighting's sake. Say something like it will provide more depth to the scenes, provide a better contrast between the actors and the scenery, make the costumes stand out better, etc, etc.
The cyc will be far more useful for many other parts of the production rather than just an act curtain. If he still doesn't budge, let him have his way but always make sure you let him know upfront all the reasons why you know it won't work.

I think its great the advice you gave, unfortunately everything but sound and lights is run by him... I may end up just dealing with it but it would be much easier to use a cyc than try to use a black stage for getting color.

 

[derekleffew]

...but it would be much easier to use a cyc than try to use a black stage for getting color.

How about this, Duck? Look upon it as an opportunity/challenge rather than as a design obstacle. It's (relatively) easy to convey time of day and mood using a cyc, but may be more interesting to attempt to convey "illusion of nature" in a black void.

There must be a reason why the director/designer wants to use a big ugly white sheet instead of the rich red pleated velvet house curtain; you just don't know what it is yet. Or, he could be an idiot; but either way, it's up to you to make the best of it.