Automated Fixtures Entry level LED profiles
- Thread starterJeffhtg
- Start date
Ford
Sr Product Manager, Chauvet Professional
Hey Jack,
To be clear, this is not the same root unit. this is not produced by our factory, it is a copy of a 3 yr old fixture. It is a copy. If you do not see it as an issue, I will not be able to change your mind. If you have noticed the SOPA mesage at the top of the threads today, you'll understand that this is the sort of thing that feeds the attempt to put legistlation like this together.
As to what else I could have said... If I'd wanted to, I could have not responded at all. I have not, and will not say anything untrue. You can ask Derek, or any of the other lighting professionals that I have worked with over the last 20 years, and I don't think they'll have much to say against my character.
I appreciate you looking for the best deal you can, but respectully disagree that these will work out well for you in the long run. I also disagree that MS lighting (which deals exclusively in knock-offs of other people's products) is a reputable company.
Again, I respect that you think that you have found a deal. Please do report back about how these hold up, and how MS lighting handles service issues, and where you get spare parts, and who you can get on the phone when you have an issue. I suspect that after a few months of regular use, you may find that these fixtures are not the deal that you believe them to be.
As to the IP issues... There is not much that we can do about it. There are literally 100s of companies making knock-offs of our COLORado fixtures (none with dimming, or sustained brightness, or consistent colors, etc....but they look the same, and have the same DMX channel layout), and if you scour the internet more closely, you'll find other copies of our units, as well as fixtures from every other major lighting manufacturer. However, if you would like to continue to see new fixtures, someone has to innovate.
We are continuing to do so, and always pushing ahead. I have a team of 12 people working in my Product Development department in the US. I have a QC department with almost 20 employees (again working under me in the US). In fact, if you go to our website, you'll see that we're looking for another Product Manager right now. I would encourage anyone who thinks they are qualified to apply (you will have to move to Florida, but it's 75 degrees and sunny today). If, as a consumer, you want to wait a year or longer, and then buy a copy of a fixture that may or may not work as well as our original, and not have anything at the cutting edge of technology... I cannot convince you otherwise.
Good luck,
Thanks for the reply Ford, very professional of you to reply and I know you could have said nothing, I respect that you did. You didn't come out and say precisely what I wanted to hear, that "the MS Lighting fixture is an unathorized copy and considered Chauvet's IP". Yes you said much of that but not directly and not together, there's no room for interpretation with that statement. As for the SOPA statement, would you rather folks just use any product from any source or attempt to find out the real story as I am? Just because I am not agreeing immediately doesn't mean I don't agree with some or all.
I was also never totally convinced it had to be from the same factory either just as I am not convincved MS Lighting actually makes it anymore. LEDID seems to be the top tier, my assumption is they actually produce it or most of the sub assemblies, I've come across this same fixture on no less than 8 to 10 different Chinese sites. One important point, these lights were not purchased for anything other than my living room, where they sit along side a dozen other toys, they are not really suited for anything much more than club, maybe small shed use (but no 60W LED is IMO)...
Jack
I was also never totally convinced it had to be from the same factory either just as I am not convincved MS Lighting actually makes it anymore. LEDID seems to be the top tier, my assumption is they actually produce it or most of the sub assemblies, I've come across this same fixture on no less than 8 to 10 different Chinese sites. One important point, these lights were not purchased for anything other than my living room, where they sit along side a dozen other toys, they are not really suited for anything much more than club, maybe small shed use (but no 60W LED is IMO)...
Jack
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
To be clear this is just to clear up some confusion jfetter is creating, Finding the same Chinese fixture on multiple chinese websites is like me walking into any large store such as walmart finding a bottle of nock off dawn, and then going to target, and finding their nock of dawn, and then going to Kmart and finding their nock of dawn. The point of the matter is its all the same stuff just rebranded. The difference between dawn and a lighting fixture is, the patent and IP rights have been made publicly available, So creating another dish cleaning product with the same properties as dawn and the same color with similar to almost exact bottle looks is legal.
Your argument of since you didn't say This but instead said this proves nothing. You'd be shocked since your opinion says that "they are not really suited for anything much more than club, maybe small shed use (but no 60W LED is IMO)..." there are several <60 watt LED units that come through on professional A level tours, such as wizard of oz, White Christmas, and other shows similar. Not a single show has come through with the Chinese copies although we have two in our building right now that are needing to be serviced (we don't carry or support these fixtures) but we have to figure out why they aren't working properly for another city facility.
So for anyone who reads this thread for future purpose, a majority of us do realize that chinese fixtures ,while not all, are generally knock offs. I would also like to point out these are generally below the quality control of the fixtures they were ripped off from. You also will have to find someone else (other than the manufacture or dealer) service any of the fixtures since the support ends after you get them. If you are planning on buying automated lighting fixtures, at least go with a company who will stand behind their product and offer service to the fixtures after the purchase.
Your argument of since you didn't say This but instead said this proves nothing. You'd be shocked since your opinion says that "they are not really suited for anything much more than club, maybe small shed use (but no 60W LED is IMO)..." there are several <60 watt LED units that come through on professional A level tours, such as wizard of oz, White Christmas, and other shows similar. Not a single show has come through with the Chinese copies although we have two in our building right now that are needing to be serviced (we don't carry or support these fixtures) but we have to figure out why they aren't working properly for another city facility.
So for anyone who reads this thread for future purpose, a majority of us do realize that chinese fixtures ,while not all, are generally knock offs. I would also like to point out these are generally below the quality control of the fixtures they were ripped off from. You also will have to find someone else (other than the manufacture or dealer) service any of the fixtures since the support ends after you get them. If you are planning on buying automated lighting fixtures, at least go with a company who will stand behind their product and offer service to the fixtures after the purchase.
Ford
Sr Product Manager, Chauvet Professional
Hey Jack,
Just for the sake of clarification: Anything from MS Lighting, and anything from LEDID that resembles a Chauvet fixture is an unathorized copy, and these units are direct infringers on Chauvet's IP.
In fact, I'll warrant that the 8 to 10 different fixtures you've seen like this are all made by different companies, all trying to sell a few lights.
I found my first trip to Asia both enlightening, and terrifying. Factories in the manufacturing centers of China are like family stores in the US. There are thousands of them, and more popping up every day. Once one person copies a mold, it is available from every mold maker in China (that may be a slight, but not large exaggeration). Then the only way to tell if a fixture is authentic is to turn it on. I've seen fixtures offered by a "factory" smaller than my garage, that literally had our name stamped in the mold. Walking a tradeshow in Asia is terrifying if you get too uptight about your IP. It only really bothers me when they sell to the US, and someone says something like "It's the same light", or "it comes from the same factory".
Funny story (ok, not that funny, but informative): Shortly after I was hired at Chauvet, and soon after we came out with the Intimidator XYZ (a unit that could not possibly be copied by accident, and was quite difficult to develop), I traveled to Asia for the first time, and walked a HUGE tradeshow. There, in the back, in a 10'x10' booth was a mom & pop factory with a direct copy...I thought "Already?? Ugh..", It looked IDENTICAL to our XYZ. The factory boss' daughter spoke broken english, and they were more than happy to explain to us that they manufactured the light for Chauvet, and that they could easily produce an order of 500 units per shipment... They were all smiles, and sunshine, but we played along, and asked them to turn it on...then the unit's head spun down, we heard motors torquing out, it tipped over, and began twitching. They continued to smile at us, and pretend that there was nothing wrong, as if we would be remotely interested in a unit that could not even turn on. They were completely unabashed. They expected that we would likewise be completely at ease passing this POS off to our customers.
I learned a valuable lesson that day: What I do, what my team does, matters. The hours of product reviews, tweaking software, pushing suppliers for better parts, all of it... matters. Chauvet may not have the resources of some of the larger entertainment manufacturers, but we work hard to provide the best value that we can in our products. We offer different products, target to different sectors of the market, because we want to offer a product to almost anyone who wants it. This can seem flawed, if someone shoots our SlimPar against a product from PixelRange, but when you put our similar product up against our competition, we always provide value, and quality relative to that market sector. If I had just seen a photo of that XYZ knock-off, it would have looked like the same unit. It was when I saw what it did (or didn't do), and I saw how the factory owners responded, that I understood how important our positions at Chauvet are.
Anyway, I've ranted enough. Back to work for me.
Just for the sake of clarification: Anything from MS Lighting, and anything from LEDID that resembles a Chauvet fixture is an unathorized copy, and these units are direct infringers on Chauvet's IP.
In fact, I'll warrant that the 8 to 10 different fixtures you've seen like this are all made by different companies, all trying to sell a few lights.
I found my first trip to Asia both enlightening, and terrifying. Factories in the manufacturing centers of China are like family stores in the US. There are thousands of them, and more popping up every day. Once one person copies a mold, it is available from every mold maker in China (that may be a slight, but not large exaggeration). Then the only way to tell if a fixture is authentic is to turn it on. I've seen fixtures offered by a "factory" smaller than my garage, that literally had our name stamped in the mold. Walking a tradeshow in Asia is terrifying if you get too uptight about your IP. It only really bothers me when they sell to the US, and someone says something like "It's the same light", or "it comes from the same factory".
Funny story (ok, not that funny, but informative): Shortly after I was hired at Chauvet, and soon after we came out with the Intimidator XYZ (a unit that could not possibly be copied by accident, and was quite difficult to develop), I traveled to Asia for the first time, and walked a HUGE tradeshow. There, in the back, in a 10'x10' booth was a mom & pop factory with a direct copy...I thought "Already?? Ugh..", It looked IDENTICAL to our XYZ. The factory boss' daughter spoke broken english, and they were more than happy to explain to us that they manufactured the light for Chauvet, and that they could easily produce an order of 500 units per shipment... They were all smiles, and sunshine, but we played along, and asked them to turn it on...then the unit's head spun down, we heard motors torquing out, it tipped over, and began twitching. They continued to smile at us, and pretend that there was nothing wrong, as if we would be remotely interested in a unit that could not even turn on. They were completely unabashed. They expected that we would likewise be completely at ease passing this POS off to our customers.
I learned a valuable lesson that day: What I do, what my team does, matters. The hours of product reviews, tweaking software, pushing suppliers for better parts, all of it... matters. Chauvet may not have the resources of some of the larger entertainment manufacturers, but we work hard to provide the best value that we can in our products. We offer different products, target to different sectors of the market, because we want to offer a product to almost anyone who wants it. This can seem flawed, if someone shoots our SlimPar against a product from PixelRange, but when you put our similar product up against our competition, we always provide value, and quality relative to that market sector. If I had just seen a photo of that XYZ knock-off, it would have looked like the same unit. It was when I saw what it did (or didn't do), and I saw how the factory owners responded, that I understood how important our positions at Chauvet are.
Anyway, I've ranted enough. Back to work for me.
Your a good dude Ford, I respect anyone professional enough to take some heat and stay professional, it says a lot about you. I'm a fan of this simple statement, "say what you mean and mean what you say", if everyone lived their life this way the world would be much simpler and we could probably do away with lawyers and all the warnings and such we post on products saying "not to insert your tongue in the impeller on a jet ski" and so many equally silly things.
Your statement means enough for me to not purchase these fixtures again, not based on quality or lack of it (I really think this fixture is well made, sad really) but because I don't support theft. I see theft of software on a regular basis, people think beause it's virtual and you really can't hold it, it's not theft but it's all the same in the end, the innovator loses out. I'm glad you took the time to respond, not many others would have and done it so professionally...
Jack
Your statement means enough for me to not purchase these fixtures again, not based on quality or lack of it (I really think this fixture is well made, sad really) but because I don't support theft. I see theft of software on a regular basis, people think beause it's virtual and you really can't hold it, it's not theft but it's all the same in the end, the innovator loses out. I'm glad you took the time to respond, not many others would have and done it so professionally...
Jack
If you're confused that's fine but do you think other people can't figure things out on their own? I don't think I caused confusion in the slightest, you followed it right?
Asking him to phrase it in a way that couldn't be misintepreted is something I learned from years of subtle word play, sadly it matters and in the end he had no problem clarifying for me. Sorry you are so certain of everything in life and know every Chinese product is a scam, must be good to be so certain about things...
Jack
Last edited:
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
Now don't put words into my mouth, I never said that all Chinese products are scams, just the majority of what is marketed on the internet sites that claim to have cheap amazing lights. Not to mention the silly spelling mistakes and the obvious copy/paste of information.
I can't say about this particular fixture or brand. But I can tell you that I have seen first hand that what I said previous is correct. It is common practice for say.. a 1500 watt strobe to be made at one place - or city - because they have several dies and pre-fab products ready to go. I have been there when a major company selects a product, modifies it, has a unit manufactured and approves it. I have been personally offered product that was made for a certain USA company by the plant that made it. I know for a fact I can make 500 of them with my own name printed on the fixture if I choose to do.
China does not operate under the same ethics and legal system as the USA. There are very few if any patents in any of these entry line products. There are very little infringements because almost every product has a basic selection of features. Most importantly USA company X did not Invent said product.. they merely picked the featureset they wanted on their par64 LED and had them made to spec.
I didn't mean to start a big argument here. I am merely excited to see some bigger powered LED low cost fixtures come into our marketplace and I anxiously await reviews.
Back on topic.
I will throw in my .02 from a nightclub I visited today. 1 Year old Chauvet Qspot 260's look to be in fairly good working order. Typical club that doesn't clean their stuff. 10 of them - next to another 2 dozen mirrored fixtures they may have been Scan LED 300's. Some of the scanners had some problems - but I could easily attribute any problems to them being dirty as crap. I also could not really tell if the output was there.. because they were dirty as crap.
The important information here is: A nightclub that doesn't clean their lights has a significant rig of these entry line sub $1000 fixtures and they are working a year later. The cheaper stuff - led truss warmers= slim pars, some bars of some sort, and some larger pars almost all had missing leds in them (alot of red's were out). The club was in the process of sending most of the wash stuff back in for repair. I have seen this sort of thing quite a bit.
I will throw in my .02 from a nightclub I visited today. 1 Year old Chauvet Qspot 260's look to be in fairly good working order. Typical club that doesn't clean their stuff. 10 of them - next to another 2 dozen mirrored fixtures they may have been Scan LED 300's. Some of the scanners had some problems - but I could easily attribute any problems to them being dirty as crap. I also could not really tell if the output was there.. because they were dirty as crap.
The important information here is: A nightclub that doesn't clean their lights has a significant rig of these entry line sub $1000 fixtures and they are working a year later. The cheaper stuff - led truss warmers= slim pars, some bars of some sort, and some larger pars almost all had missing leds in them (alot of red's were out). The club was in the process of sending most of the wash stuff back in for repair. I have seen this sort of thing quite a bit.
I don't think anyone should appologize for having a respectful conversation, even if not in complete agreement. After all, why come to a place full of people with similar interests if we all think the same, what would anyone learn?
Jack
Gern
Active Member
...why come to a place full of people with similar interests if we all think the same, what would anyone learn?
Well Jack, I respectfully say that there is a lot to be learned. Was that you that said, "say what you mean, mean what you say"?
Certainly, IMHO, just because we have similar interests, we sure as heck do not have the same knowledge, experience, skill sets, or college or university lighting education, the last of which I have none. My degree is in Fire Science. I did put out a small curtain fire from a par64 on stage during my first pro gig. I just spun the par away from the curtain, and slapped the rag with the back of my hand, knocking out the flames. So simple, yet so effective as others literally ran around yelling fire!
As I've posted elsewhere I sure look up to so many of the CB'ers, I have realized my limitations and lack of knowledge and actually had reflextion on my early career to the point of thinking, "what if.." as in what if I'd really applied myself and got some degrees like those I look up to. I don't dwell on it, it passes, and I go on being happy I get to do what I do, and I look forward to getting on set & running consoles.
Yes, It may not be as great a feeling as when I save someones life(over 14 so far), or when I saved someones home from being destroyed by fire(2 confirmed), but my stage work is very rewarding to me and still every day gives me a pleasant buzz.
As most of you lucky people know, there is a cool vibe you get when working on a 'Live' show.
Well, almost live!
While we all have somewhat the same interests, most of us are here to learn something. This is an educational forum after all. Part of what makes CB so great is that we have support from so many major companies like ETC and Apollo, Elation, Chauvet, and more. We have people from every level of experience. People who have been in the industry forever to people who are working on their first show in high school with their 8 dimmers and little leprechaun board, and everyone in between. Just as great as learning how you can make your show the best, sometimes, is helping someone else do the same thing.
Non-relevant posts have been moved to http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/off-topic/27198-rc-jets.html .
Similar threads
