Control/Dimming ETC ThruPower, System Design

[chausman]

I'd say that everything that comes from the dimmer rack should be 2P&G or L5-20 or whatever the house system is using, that the conventionals are. And then have enough edison/twistlock/"whatever isn't installed" adaptors for each circuit that could something other than a dimmer. Then part of moving modules around would be to make sure that circuits that are now dimmers don't have an adapter. It'd just be one of those weird quirks of the venue. My favorite install has edison convenience power ran to each position, with each position on a separate relay, also along the electric.

 

[SteveB]

Distributed dimming has been around for a long time, and the ETC dimmer has the same drawbacks as all the others. Primarily, they are expensive.

I suspect ETC intends those as an easy solution to putting a light far beyond the reach of an existing dimmer, such as in the lobby of a hotel.

They basically double the cost of the light. And, frankly, if you don't need something as small and self contained and clean looking as that package, there are better options.

BUT, the point here is to make the package as easy and convenient out of the box for the end user. I think using drop in distributed dimmers is a bit if a hack that may be convenient down the road, but i don't want to start looking in that direction up front.

I think that if I were designing a system today that was going to be in use for 30 years, I'd be sorely tempted to be installing DMX controlled constant power, not dimmers, as well as a lot of data. I'd be putting a Source 4 dimmer on the incandescent units that require it and using a lot of LED's and ML's. Might cost more initially but is the most future proof.

Then all the dedicated constant power outlets would be L5-20, even though I think 2P&G are more cost effective and durable. The problem with 2P&G in this instance is that using a 2P&G say "DIMMER" when nothing is dimmed.

 

[RickR]

I'd say that everything that comes from the dimmer rack should be 2P&G or L5-20 or whatever the house system is using, that the conventionals are. And then have enough edison/twistlock/"whatever isn't installed" adapters for each circuit that could something other than a dimmer. Then part of moving modules around would be to make sure that circuits that are now dimmers don't have an adapter. It'd just be one of those weird quirks of the venue. My favorite install has edison convenience power ran to each position, with each position on a separate relay, also along the electric.

Am I reading you correctly that you want all the same connectors except your favorite install isn't that way?

One of the quirks of the venue in the system I mentioned is that we are intending module movement to be minimal to nonexistent. We have included enough constant circuits (& DMX) to convert the bulk of the lighting to LED, or to use (rental) portable packs to expand dimmer counts. Derekleffew has a valid point on the confusion module movement can cause. We all know many things can cause trouble with ignorance is high on the list. In this case we are using the complexity (knowledge, LOTO etc), the lock on the dimmer cabinet and staff training to enforce the intention. That allows us to use the different connectors to simplify the hot/dimmed use, so the really stupid mistakes are avoided. With heavy turnover of less than dedicated lighting students simplicity in operation is crucial. Of course I know I've learned a lot from making mistakes...

I don't pretend that this idea is good for all or even most venues. But one must recall that the primary job of a consultant is to select for a specific venue. Otherwise we would have a short list of "ideal" designs and owners would simply pick the theater type they want.

As I said in my first post, I value hearing the various opinions. Casey, what have you drawn from the discussion?

 

[chausman]

Am I reading you correctly that you want all the same connectors except your favorite install isn't that way?

Everything that is part of the lighting system that can dim is through the Sensor dimmer rack, and is all 2P&G. Everything that is part of the lighting system that can not dim, is run through a SmartSwitch (AFAIK), and is all Edison. Both are in the same raceway, and controllable from the booth (although not DMX on the SmartSwitch). I want everything that has the possibility of dimming something specific (stagepin meets that need), and everything non-dim (but is still under "my" control) something else. I personally prefer Edison for that, but it could be something else, just not whatever is being used for dimming.

 

[MNicolai]

Everything that is part of the lighting system that can dim is through the Sensor dimmer rack, and is all 2P&G. Everything that is part of the lighting system that can not dim, is run through a SmartSwitch (AFAIK), and is all Edison. Both are in the same raceway, and controllable from the booth (although not DMX on the SmartSwitch). I want everything that has the possibility of dimming something specific (stagepin meets that need), and everything non-dim (but is still under "my" control) something else. I personally prefer Edison for that, but it could be something else, just not whatever is being used for dimming.

I like the SmartSwitch implementation, except as we've discussed in another thread...

Thought I should remind everyone that the Smartswitch does not have branch circuit protection. It is just a set of relays in a single enclosure with a common control system. A separate electrical distribution panel is still required. If you need (24) 20A, 120V switched circuits, you need a Smartswitch as well as a distribution panel with (24) 20A, single pole breakers.

I would love to see ETC come out with a product that combines the two, but unfortunately it would be too late for my church's new worship center. We're installing 72 circuits of Smartswitch with the associated 3 electrical panels to support them.

I've given it a little further contemplation and right now here is where I stand:

I prefer SmartSwitch for convenience receptacles so long as the cost of the branch panels and the SmartSwitch racks is not more than the equivalent number of circuits fed right out of the dimmer rack. If the receptacles are dedicated as 5-20R's and the facility isn't short on dimmers to begin with, I don't mind having circuits scattered around that can't be used as dimmers. If I really need the extra dimmers now and then, I'd get a few Source Four Dimmers or shoebox dimmers and use the convenience receptacles to power them.

D20's? 2P&G always. I loathe L5-20's for several reasons.

When constant-power is through R20AF's (or the less-preferred CC20's) with the intent of them being permanently installed constant-power circuits per lighting location, I'd prefer 5-20R receptacles in the raceways, prefixed or suffixed to designate them in a way that discourages moving around of modules. ("ND-", "CC-", "R-", etc.)

For ThruPower modules in "advanced venues", I'd prefer 2P&G, no suffix or prefix, and the user shuffles them around at their own will/risk.

For ThruPower modules in "novice venues", I'd prefer ThruPower on dedicated 5-20R's in the raceways and the modules labeled "Do Not Move". If the users decide to get LED's or accessories, awesome, but otherwise if they want to use them as regular dimmers they can tie in 2P&G luminaires to ThruPower circuits via adapters. In this scenario, nobody expects the users to be shuffling their modules around except under the most dire of circumstances.


I have never seen this in practice, but I believe that system specifiers should have dimmer racks labeled in a way that clearly shows any modules that are not intended to be moved. This is house lighting, work-lighting, permanently installed dedicated circuits for constant power, etc. Nothing prevents a user from deviating from the intended configuration at their own will/risk, but it does reduce the chance less-experienced users will muck-up their systems by swapping the wrong modules on accident.

 

[DuckJordan]

I'll try and nab photos, our system has dedicated racks for our house lights

 

[chausman]

I like the SmartSwitch implementation, except as we've discussed in another thread...

Depending on the venue, this may not be a (large) factor. If the space was being renovated/updated, that distribution and OPD may already exist. Our local arena just got ~480 circuits of SmartSwitch relays put in for almost everything, from HID houselights (with automated shutters) to the neon outside, to the lighting in the lobby/bathrooms. All controlled by a very large Unison system. Although you are right. If the cost of distribution and the smart switch is greater then the cost of more modules/racks for CC20/R20, then it doesn't make much sense.