STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
The good ones don't. But when the bad ones blow up, it's an issue!
And, everyone lies and says that that their fixtures work on a dimmer set to full. That compounds the issue when they blow up.
ST
Control/Dimming ETC ThruPower, System Design
- Thread starterCasey
- Start date
The good ones don't. But when the bad ones blow up, it's an issue!
And, everyone lies and says that that their fixtures work on a dimmer set to full. That compounds the issue when they blow up.
ST
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
Some good thoughts. Let me rekindle the discussion with some points:
1) 0% of the fixtures I specify come with connectors attached to them. Some come with bare wire leads (such as a source four) and some come with no wire and a blue power con in receptacle (such as a VL or ETCs LED line)
2) the breakdown of venues we work on is roughly :
40% High School
30% College
20% Professional
10% Commercial or other
3) Any time you get something other than standard, it increases the cost. IE, two connectors per circuit, or a hot circuit in the middle of a plug strip
4) In an educational environment, turnover is relatively high for employees, but student turnover is exceptionally high.
And read Steve's post for further details on why you would want these. In short, if we do too much wet power and not enough dimmers now, the client is unhappy today. If we do too little wet power, in 5 to 10 years the client is unhappy. And as a the customer's contact, I have to be able to tell them why the system works now, and how it will play into their hand the next time they want to upgrade. Plus, since most of the installations are educational, they all want to be slightly ahead of the curve as their function isn't to produce, it is to teach the students how to produce. And they want to be using the gear that the students will encounter post graduation / in a few years.
1) 0% of the fixtures I specify come with connectors attached to them. Some come with bare wire leads (such as a source four) and some come with no wire and a blue power con in receptacle (such as a VL or ETCs LED line)
2) the breakdown of venues we work on is roughly :
40% High School
30% College
20% Professional
10% Commercial or other
3) Any time you get something other than standard, it increases the cost. IE, two connectors per circuit, or a hot circuit in the middle of a plug strip
4) In an educational environment, turnover is relatively high for employees, but student turnover is exceptionally high.
And read Steve's post for further details on why you would want these. In short, if we do too much wet power and not enough dimmers now, the client is unhappy today. If we do too little wet power, in 5 to 10 years the client is unhappy. And as a the customer's contact, I have to be able to tell them why the system works now, and how it will play into their hand the next time they want to upgrade. Plus, since most of the installations are educational, they all want to be slightly ahead of the curve as their function isn't to produce, it is to teach the students how to produce. And they want to be using the gear that the students will encounter post graduation / in a few years.
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Lets simplify things.
You are using d20s, or TR20's, so your options need to be rated for 20 amps. This means you can (legally) spec 5-20s, l5-20s, or 2P+G. But let's assume for now, based on the fact that everyone does, that 5-15's are an option. Except they shouldn't be, and here's why.
You have to assume at some point that the circuits connected to the TR20's will be dimmed. With this true, people (especially people that may not be all that experienced) need to be encouraged to think before plugging things into these circuits. The best way to do this is to not use a plug that could cause damage. Putting anything but a 5-15R on the end of the circuit means that Mr. Janitor who really just wants to vaccuum the floor of the catwalks, or Miss Freshmen who needs to play her tunes while she's painting the set, will have to come to someone in control of the adaptors to be able to plug it in. This person would be able to prevent something foolish from happening. On the other hand, if the TR20 is set to hot power, and someone plugs in a conventional, It's not going to cause any major problems, it will be spotted during tech, and everything will be fixable real quick like.
It does make me wonder, however, how adaptor,FED is legal. It allows you to plug 15amp wiring into 20 amp circuits. Or what about sensor racks with edisons? Or do those have d15s?
You are using d20s, or TR20's, so your options need to be rated for 20 amps. This means you can (legally) spec 5-20s, l5-20s, or 2P+G. But let's assume for now, based on the fact that everyone does, that 5-15's are an option. Except they shouldn't be, and here's why.
You have to assume at some point that the circuits connected to the TR20's will be dimmed. With this true, people (especially people that may not be all that experienced) need to be encouraged to think before plugging things into these circuits. The best way to do this is to not use a plug that could cause damage. Putting anything but a 5-15R on the end of the circuit means that Mr. Janitor who really just wants to vaccuum the floor of the catwalks, or Miss Freshmen who needs to play her tunes while she's painting the set, will have to come to someone in control of the adaptors to be able to plug it in. This person would be able to prevent something foolish from happening. On the other hand, if the TR20 is set to hot power, and someone plugs in a conventional, It's not going to cause any major problems, it will be spotted during tech, and everything will be fixable real quick like.
It does make me wonder, however, how adaptor,FED is legal. It allows you to plug 15amp wiring into 20 amp circuits. Or what about sensor racks with edisons? Or do those have d15s?
Okay. But what about node s, opto-splitter s, scroller PSU s, DMX irises, Twinspin s, Seachanger s, or any other "gadget" one often finds on an electric? I've never seen a wall wart that didn't have either a NEMA 1-15 or 5-15 plug built into it.
Again I'll state my case for 2P&G-20 (or, if you absolutely must, L5-20) receptacle s, AND a healthy supply of male<that>-to-female Edison adapter s.
An anecdote: In 1969, when my first college built its PAC, a state-of-the-art five-scene platen preset system was installed on the mainstage. For the studio theatre, they chose a large and complex Dimmer, Autotransformer system. Both by Ward-Leonard. The thinking was that the mainstage would train future professionals; and the studio would train teachers and amateurs, who encounter manual dimmers in their later life. The mainstage became a Light Palette in 1980, the ATD s in the studio were replaced by a LightboardM in the late '80s. I believe today the mainstage is 520i and the studio an Express.
Where was I going with this? I forget. Oh yeah: Academia's crystal ball is seldom clear. The ThruPower is a brand new product. Maybe it will sell like gangbusters, and we'll soon see Sensor3 racks loaded with nothing else. But personally I doubt it. It has its place, but I prefer the more cost-effective method of swapping modules. Maybe the future is dimmer racks with all CC20/R20s and swap in a few D20s occasionally, instead of today's reverse.
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All of the duplex 5-15 receptacle s (max of 13 per circuit, IIRC) in my (and likely your) house are protected by a 20A OCPD. There's nothing stopping me from plugging in two 1200W luminaire s or appliances if I desire. Also, I am allowed to plug 18g. zip cord with a NEMA 1-15 into them.
Sensor racks with D20 modules have DUPLEX Edison, or a single T-slot 5-20C.
See also http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/22681-edison-5-15-connector-ratings.html :
My takeaway from that is to always buy/use 5-20 females, whether the OCPD is 15A or 20A.
However, this raises some more questions/confusions.
I think the intended use-case is not that the entire rack be ThruPower modules, but that instead that each lighting position has a percentage of its circuits as ThruPower. A couple circuits per front-of-house position, 2 or 4 per electric, 1 or 2 per 6-circuit drop cable. Of an entire install, there may only need to be 10 or so ThruPower modules mixed in with D20's. The use-case here is that each position has enough flexibility to have a 50/50 mix of LED's and conventionals. It's also nice that you can use the circuits for 120v movers or accessories, but LED's are the primary intent.
You don't need a rack filled with ThruPower for most installs. I work in a theatre with 40+ Selador fixtures, and we use only one non-dim circuit per position for LED's. It's always nice to have a few more circuits for those times we need power for scrollers or a projector we've hung, but per electric we would rarely need more than 40A of non-dim available.
Let us not forget that one of the best applications for these modules is in educational facilities, where you have 1) faculty who don't know how to swap modules, and 2) students who know how to swap modules or are capable of figuring it out, but who do not understand the hazards of arc flashes. The fewer reasons for kids to reach into dimmer racks, the better.
Also, in situations where you're tight on circuits, this allows you to only use one circuit of non-dim instead of the module swap that forces two dimmers into relays or constant power. Suddenly, powering a few scrollers or a projector doesn't mean you have to unnecessarily give up an extra dimmer just so you can swap a module out.
Back to Casey's original question, I'm tempted to say I wouldn't mind the circuit having a custom label designation such as 129-TR, but because modules can and do get swapped and moved around, any non-standard labels or connectors on ThruPower circuits are subject to becoming orphaned the first time someone decides to move a few modules around. For that reason, I'd agree with the crowd that I'd prefer ThruPower circuits have the same connectors as the dimmed circuits.
As an installer or a specifier, you may need to leave some documentation taped to the wall of the control booth alerting users to the existence of these modules. In educational facilities specifically, the high turnover rate of students and faculty would leave a lot of opportunity for users to forget that they have these modules and what these modules are intended to be used for. I've been working regularly with a high school arts center for 5 years and if I wasn't constantly reminding students why we use R20's and CC20's instead of D20's for powering movers, or that the facility even has R20's and CC20's to spare -- they'd run everything off dimmers or would unnecessarily run cables down to the 5-20R's at ground level.
Also, in situations where you're tight on circuits, this allows you to only use one circuit of non-dim instead of the module swap that forces two dimmers into relays or constant power. Suddenly, powering a few scrollers or a projector doesn't mean you have to unnecessarily give up an extra dimmer just so you can swap a module out.
Back to Casey's original question, I'm tempted to say I wouldn't mind the circuit having a custom label designation such as 129-TR, but because modules can and do get swapped and moved around, any non-standard labels or connectors on ThruPower circuits are subject to becoming orphaned the first time someone decides to move a few modules around. For that reason, I'd agree with the crowd that I'd prefer ThruPower circuits have the same connectors as the dimmed circuits.
As an installer or a specifier, you may need to leave some documentation taped to the wall of the control booth alerting users to the existence of these modules. In educational facilities specifically, the high turnover rate of students and faculty would leave a lot of opportunity for users to forget that they have these modules and what these modules are intended to be used for. I've been working regularly with a high school arts center for 5 years and if I wasn't constantly reminding students why we use R20's and CC20's instead of D20's for powering movers, or that the facility even has R20's and CC20's to spare -- they'd run everything off dimmers or would unnecessarily run cables down to the 5-20R's at ground level.
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tjrobb
Well-Known Member
We have two boom ladders that have Edison and 2P+G. The Edison are fed from a breaker panel, the pin from the dimmer rack. No way the Edison can be dimmed, preventing problems with intelligent equipment. We also have two or three CC's that get swapped in as needed for hot power elsewhere in the theatre.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
Sort of. Dimmer racks are expensive, as are modules. It's far cheaper to power those 5-15R's (5-20R's?) off of a branch panel than off of a dimmer rack, and I'll bet that whoever specified the system didn't have room in the budget for the luxury of the extra rack spaces and modules necessary to run those through the dimmer rack. To power those circuits from the rack probably would've meant fewer dimmable circuits available on stage.
Have we not discussed the problem of using the term "Wet Power/Dry Power". I've heard of it and can never remember whether wet is dimmed or constant.
How about using "Dimmed" and then something else such as "Constant" or Non-Dimmed" (which has issues of it's own), or "Direct". Wet seems to be specific to an section of the industry - Film ?, Cruise Ships ?, don't know.
Anybody have any consensus on this ?.
5-15 is obviously not an option, if Edison, it will be a 5-20. But remember that you can plug a male 5-15 into a 5-20 receptacle.
True. And if it is a new building and you can get some circuits run cheap by the EC that is great. But if it is retrofit, and you are running additional piping for those Edison circuits, or even worse, you need to install an additional panel to put those circuits in, that extra expense adds up.
Distributed dimming has been around for a long time, and the ETC dimmer has the same drawbacks as all the others. Primarily, they are expensive.
I suspect ETC intends those as an easy solution to putting a light far beyond the reach of an existing dimmer, such as in the lobby of a hotel.
They basically double the cost of the light. And, frankly, if you don't need something as small and self contained and clean looking as that package, there are better options.
BUT, the point here is to make the package as easy and convenient out of the box for the end user. I think using drop in distributed dimmers is a bit if a hack that may be convenient down the road, but i don't want to start looking in that direction up front.
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
Since this seems to be taking on an unfortunate life of its own, here is my view:
"Wet" power is an unfortunate and obfuscating term. I have never heard it before, and it adds no meaning--rather, it requires the Magic Decoder Ring to extract its meaning. It doesn't even sound cool to me!
"Dimmed" and "Constant" power are clear and without hidden meaning. Since there are no pool pumps, fire pumps, trash pumps, nuclear reactor cooling pumps, nor any other kinds of liquids involved, I suggest we stay with those clear and traditional terms, please.
ST
