First Moving head suggestions

Re: NW Lighting FX Moving Head lights

Bill and I also had a discussion about the similarities of the units to Martin units and he was able to point out that they are not "clones", but in fact are a competitor (there are differences). Unless someone can provide FACTUAL evidence that these are in fact clones (which I tend to doubt due to the fact Martin would have already sued them if that were the case) I think we should stop calling these ripoffs.

Jeff-- I sent you a PM.

Mats over on LN has been completely silent lately about the Martin knock-offs that are out there. If the lawsuit papers have not been served yet, they are sitting on someones desk waiting to be served. Martin is being VERY tight lipped about this issue. Give Martin a call and ask them for a fixture profile for a NWLighting fixture, let me know if they send it to you.
Controller fixture library request
Please note that not all fixture request can be accepted. We reserve the right refuse certain request base on IP infringement of Martin products.

You can not tell me these are not rip-offs. All one has to do is look at the case design to figure out that these are trying to be Martin fixtures. The bolt pattern is identical and vents are identical ....

Yes, you are saving your clients money but you are also costing a company that spent money developing the real fixture money. So, if you want all the cool gadgets, you have to support the company that actually develops the cool gadgets.
 
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I just purchase (6) Q-Spot™ 260-LED and i am AMAZED to say the least.
I replace 4 Highend movers that weighed about 80 pounds ea. These LED beauties retail at about $900.00 and weigh about 40 pounds. and do more than the high end lights did. These lights are fast and bright and uses LOW power.

These babies are my new best friend. Do a search in You tube and see them in action.

For the money I don't think there's a better light on the planet.
 
When you buy into a product, you're not just buying into the physical materials that go into that product, you're buying into the company, service, development, and employees behind that product. So, you, the owner of Company A, have choices when you enter the business. Just after you enter the business, you hire a development team of 15 people for a product line. Once you have a product to sell, you have another 10-20 people in marketing, 5-6 in customer service, and 30-50 in manufacturing. Let's not forget that technology costs money too, so including just the people on your development team plus "stuff," you have a weekly development budget of say $20,000/wk (and we'll say your generous, but not wealthy, giving your engineers and product development managers about $55k/yr).

So you've got roughly a million dollars a year tied up in development, which I'll admit, ignores "luxuries" like dental and health insurance, which employers also have to pay. So before you even have a product, you've got a lot of overhead, and you're still a relatively small company. Let's not forget that the molds, castings, and PCB's for your first, second, third, and fourth prototypes will cost $40,000 each if you're lucky -- another set of costs not already calc'ed into the development overhead.

So optimistically, you've got, we'll say, $1,250,000 a year tied up and you're still not even mass producing or selling a product yet. You haven't even yet hired a guy to clean the bathrooms. (In case you're wondering, his name might be Derrick and he might be using that $30k/yr to feed his family. He also enjoys talking about biking and his two daughters each day when he walks through and empties the trash bins in the development lab.)

Just running your development lab for that single product line you make is wildly expensive and until you're selling a real product, you've got a lot of money circling the drain if you end up developing something that doesn't pan out or takes an unexpectedly large amount of time to ship.

Thus, companies that are willing to settle for not being the best, but possibly the cheapest, have an economic incentive to copy another manufacturer's products. You can make a boatload of money because you can effectively skip through all of the hurdles of development. You don't need millions of dollars in development because you just have to make your product look a little bit different and give a few people an impression you did the work on your own. Then you get to ship a product a lot sooner with a lot less overhead, and thusly get to undercut the original manufacturer by selling your copycat for less than their original bit of brilliance. Better yet if you do that all while having an understaffed or nonexistent support staff.

All is good and well while you're raking in the dough, but economics are a zero-sum game. If you're winning, it's because someone is losing. You're offering a product that is almost a direct substitution to the original product and at a far lower price (after all, you don't have to recoup the development overhead costs). You're taking potential sales for their products and claiming them as your own. Therefore, it takes longer for the original manufacturer to recoup their overhead costs (and pay for health insurance for Derrick's daughters), and you reap the benefits.

You didn't benefit at their expense because you were genuinely innovative or provided fair competition -- because you were better than them. You did it by copying the sum of their development expertise and released their product under your name with a different logo stamped onto to it and probably a poor customer service support structure to boot.

Copying a product that already exists serves only to harm the company that was genuinely invested in creating a product of their own. It's only different in semantics, but not in purpose, fairness, or morality than stealing a truckload of their products, stamping your name and serial numbers on them, and reselling them under your name. After all, the money they put into the development of that product is what you're benefiting from.

When you support a company that engages in what can lightly be referred to as unfair economic competition, you serve not only to encourage them to continue copying products pioneered by other companies, but also to drive the original manufacturers into financial ruin.

As was brought up in another thread, there are some fabulous GrandMA and Avolites consoles that have an overwhelming amount of development overhead that go into them. When you choose to purchase a copycat of their product for a fraction of the cost, you willfully damage the sales of genuine GrandMA and Avolites products.

Now if you want to get into the deeper semantics, we can go as far as to say that this is why companies in the United States are losing to competition in China, and thusly are a contributing factor to why there are 15,000,000 unemployed Americans. Not all companies thriving on such copyright infringement are based out of the country, some of them (such as Blizzard) are based in the United States. That's all good and great, but such product development provides no forward thinking or innovation to the nation's manufacturing. They are an intellectual sidestep. First, you aren't advancing technology and making something remarkable -- you're copying something that already exists, stealing intellectual property. Second, when you extend the amount of time it takes for company to recoup its development costs for a product, you then extend the amount of time before they can move on to creating the next innovation.

For nearly 9,000 years, people were hunter-gathers. They followed the food. Their basis for living was staying near what they thrived upon. There was inherent value in what they did because just about anyone who worked provided skills and labor did so in way that kept people alive. When the goal is keeping people alive, there's a simple economic structure. You need food, so you trade with me for it because I gather food. You might or might not have currency, but maybe you have fur, pottery, furniture, or something else. When it comes to you and I trading, either you and I see value in what the other has or we don't. Regardless, you'll give what you need to stay alive because food keeps you alive longer than pottery does.

In the last 150 years or so, things changed. The economy was no longer based on one person going out and killing a wildebeast and bringing back to share with the village, it was based on the factory. As a factory owner, you don't want ingenuinity, people who are smart, or people who are invaluable, you want people who can follow directions. The exception is if you have a development team. The reason you don't want to hire people based on their skills but based on their ability to follow directions is because those people are expendable. You don't have to pay them much because you can replace them easily. If they get hit by a streetcar, the big bus theory isn't violated, and you (the factory owner) still pass go and collect $200.

The factory worked really well for a good 100 years. Then things got shady. In the year of 2010, your best competitor is no longer on the other side of the world, they're a click away on Google. Being 2nd best is no longer good enough because if you don't have a reason for people to enter your store, they'll just buy what they need on Amazon. This is the reason conventional book and CD stores failed. As such, the factory failed. There's limited economic success to be found by people who's primary asset is that they can follow directions and are easily replaced. In the global market, because the company with the best and most innovative products are the first hit on Google and they get the most business. Second best gets little to no recognition because first best is all that customers care about.

A company that chooses to copy the products of other companies therefore may get away with some economic successes for a short while, but ultimately they serve to unfairly harm their competitors and bottleneck and slow the progress of innovation within an industry. If China, Inc. under a worst case scenario were to grab the market share of GrandMA and Avolites, effectively putting them out of business, innovation stops -- it ceases to exist. China, Inc. succeeded by selling copycat products for cheap, but with GrandMA and Avolites gone, not only will they run out of new, innovative products to copy, but the industry as a whole will be damaged. China, Inc. has no intent, desire, or ability to innovate. They're just really good at copying other people's innovations and selling them as their own.

Then, things grind to a halt. Companies stop making breathtaking new products because the companies that did have gone bankrupt, and now people only replace things when they die. They don't buy a new lighting system until their old one is inoperable. Whereas tons of money each year goes towards buying new products, not because the old ones don't work, but because the new ones are better. With such unfair competition, truly innovative companies fail, copycat companies persevere on the successes of others, the economy stagnates, people stop buying new stuff, and then we enter the world's most depressing theme park, Recession Land.

The reason such worst case scenarios don't come true is because companies like Martin, Avolites, GrandMA, Phillips, ETC, and Vari-Lite, the truly innovative geniuses of our industry in this decade, have loyal customers -- customers that will stick by them even when copies of their products can be purchased for half of the price. Also, the entire entertainment industry is a blip on the world's economic radar. If we went under, the ensuing depression among the world would be emotional but not economic. That is, unless you're Derrick, the guy who still has two daughters, no job, no health insurance, and not enough savings to keep the lights turned on.

(the big bus theory states that for the sake of the company, it's best if you have your notes on a project organized such that anyone can take over at any point for any, so should you get hit by a big bus, the company doesn't lose weeks or months of your work that no knows how to take over in your absence.)
 
I just purchase (6) Q-Spot™ 260-LED and i am AMAZED to say the least.
I replace 4 Highend movers that weighed about 80 pounds ea. These LED beauties retail at about $900.00 and weigh about 40 pounds. and do more than the high end lights did. These lights are fast and bright and uses LOW power.

These babies are my new best friend. Do a search in You tube and see them in action.

For the money I don't think there's a better light on the planet.

Have you seen the picture of my venue? LEDs in that place would NEVER stand a chance...............
 
I think what everyone is forgetting is that these companies (Martin, High End, Vari-Lite, etc) still exist. They haven't closed due to some small location in the middle of the country producing a fixture that looks like the one they sell. Cause, quite frankly, there are tons of products out there that look the same - what matters in quality is what is used inside. If you actually look at the specifications, you can tell that, while they may have the same sorts of features (prism, color wheel, gobo wheel, etc) the mac 250 has way more functionality (such as having double the number of colors, more features on the gobo wheel, etc). So, inside, they are very far from the same light.

I also believe that you have to realize that not everyone has the money to buy Martin movers, but they may want to own a set of moving lights. Any of the big companies isn't going to look ideal to a small theatre looking to owner a pair of lights - but finding a company that sells a much cheaper fixtures might.

The best analogy is this...

A hamburger is a hamburger wherever you have it. If you look at a hamburger from McDonalds and one from Burger King, they look exactly the same on the outside. What matters is the quality of meat and everything else on the inside. But, even if the Burger King one may be better on the inside, if McDonalds is selling burgers for $1.00 and burger king is still $5.00, people are going to go to McDonalds to buy the product - its the same thing, just cheaper.

So while it would be nice for everyone who wants movers to own Martins (or any other product), I don't think its right to say that people shouldn't be buying from other lesser-known companies.

Also, I should be getting pictures of the insides later, and i will post them when I get them.
 
I think what everyone is forgetting is that these companies (Martin, High End, Vari-Lite, etc) still exist. They haven't closed due to some small location in the middle of the country producing a fixture that looks like the one they sell. Cause, quite frankly, there are tons of products out there that look the same - what matters in quality is what is used inside. If you actually look at the specifications, you can tell that, while they may have the same sorts of features (prism, color wheel, gobo wheel, etc) the mac 250 has way more functionality (such as having double the number of colors, more features on the gobo wheel, etc). So, inside, they are very far from the same light.

I also believe that you have to realize that not everyone has the money to buy Martin movers, but they may want to own a set of moving lights. Any of the big companies isn't going to look ideal to a small theatre looking to owner a pair of lights - but finding a company that sells a much cheaper fixtures might.

The best analogy is this...

A hamburger is a hamburger wherever you have it. If you look at a hamburger from McDonalds and one from Burger King, they look exactly the same on the outside. What matters is the quality of meat and everything else on the inside. But, even if the Burger King one may be better on the inside, if McDonalds is selling burgers for $1.00 and burger king is still $5.00, people are going to go to McDonalds to buy the product - its the same thing, just cheaper.

So while it would be nice for everyone who wants movers to own Martins (or any other product), I don't think its right to say that people shouldn't be buying from other lesser-known companies.

Also, I should be getting pictures of the insides later, and i will post them when I get them.


Ah but i completely disagree with you and while using the same analogy. If say McDonalds is selling a hamburger for $1.00 but the local diner sells them for lets say $5.00, but the local dinner uses only good quality beef while the McDonalds has come under many a tarnishes with food born illness and such which would you go to?

These are blatant rip offs they may cost less to produce them by limiting colors and limiting gobo's but they are blatant rip offs. And your exact thinking had this country as a whole circling the drain because people are now looking for cheep products who "Claim to do the same thing" but in reality are less likely to succeed and tell me where did you get your info on big companies such as martin not supporting small theaters, We only have two mac 550's and they still will send a service tech to small town South Dakota to help with any issues we encounter with them. So before you think that theater companies such as Martin or ETC. are much like Microsoft where they would rather sell you something new than fix what you have they are not. (Mac 550's are no longer produced by the way and they expect to carry the parts for another 10 years.

This is where i see the problem with 15 year olds buying lights, yes they are cool to have, Yes they might get you started on gigs but in the end your hurting not only the rest of the business but your also hurting yourself. the reason most theaters don't have it in their budget to buy things such as moving lights and other pieces of equipment isn't because they couldn't afford them its that their budget which is setup by a board of members doesn't allow enough wiggle room for such pieces of equipment, this means for you that when you hire yourself out to do a gig and they see that you have 10 movers but are only basically charging them for 2 they think that they can move a budget up to cover the costs of those 10 for two when really what you have is going to cost more in the long run.

They don't see the expenses that come up between a few gigs they only see the expense now. By expenses i mean the broken parts and the new lamp assembly and such that break more often because they aren't as well designed just cheaply designed rip offs.

Yes, many moving lights have the same parts, but what really constitutes them being different is how they utilize the parts inside with the software. (there are only so many ways to make a wheel). This is all great but the china inc. stuff is just taken apart at some factory. Taken molds of and mass producing the crap they molded off one of the real things.
 
Ok so some things I have noticed here. Undoubtedly, the casing on the NW unit is a rip-off on some level. Looks to be the work of a very lazy industrial designer. So a [-]patent[/-] copyright violation on the case. The unit is by all accounts of people who have looked inside of it NOT the same unit. Obviously this is not OK, but I have seen a couple of posts in here that equate a case design to being fully copied design, which inflates the problem. Which brings in the burger analogy. Should NW fix this issue? Sure. If it was a serious enough problem, would Martin most likely have sued them? Yes. Clearly, their priorities are more in line with blatant knockoffs, which replicate the entire unit on a very low level of quality. Obviously those are a real issue, and no one should buy that crap.

But saying that no one should buy lower end units because it hinders innovation is clearly off base. By all accounts of end users, the NW units have less features, less service, and are of lower build quality. Probably justifies paying a ton less for them.

MNicolai, part of your argument is valid. However, I take issue with when you say buying lower end units ends up killing the original designer. Thats called competition. Ever used a cheap phone with a big touch screen that sort of looks like an iphone but running a crappier OS? Same idea. Someone else came in and figured out how to give similar features in a similar case for a lower price and sacrificed some of the quality. Should we be shooting down every low end iPod/iPhone lookalike because someone else engineered a better product with better support? Thats silly.

Further, honestly, thinking that MA, Avo and Martin are going to go out of business because someone is making s*** a** clones and selling them cheap, that professionals and other large buyers will move to those cheap units, is utter folly. When PRG or upstaging starts stocking cheap clones, let me know. I would guess that most of the people who buy cheap NW units are not even in Martin, VL and Barco's market. Either they get cheap MLs or they get none at all. Thus, your probably not actually taking away much business from the big ones, and realistically, the big buyers are going to keep buying from the big names. They know their product, and LDs all across the US and the world know the products, so choose to spec those. Let me know when the first tour rolls out with FINE ART units.

All this to say, this conversation has gotten to the point where its not really sensible. We just brought cave men into a discussion on highly technical equipment. It has been fairly well established by people using the units in the field that they are not in actuality full clones. What we might agree on is that they need to re-design their case. We could even host a design competition to further this goal, if NW is on board. Might be fun for the younger creative types? Who knows. The point is, however, that charges are getting flung around based on speculation of lawsuits which no one confirms, photographs of the outside, which end users claim is not the case on the inside, and blatant speculation. Im all for debating this issue, but can we keep it to facts we can prove, photographs so people can decide for themselves, and technical specifications?

Also, another thing thats bugging me. While many chinese companies produce crap for products, I think its unfair to label everything that comes out of China as junk and not worth investing in, which labels such as "China, Inc" tend to do.

And again, just to be clear. If the NW products are indeed clones, then yes, we should stifle them. However, Until evidence emerges, and more than just a post on a website saying that you cant get a profile for them, some concrete evidence (like a court filing), can we at least suppose that the maker had decent intentions? It seems like there is a rush to judge on a lot of counts here, and again, a lot of it is speculation.
 
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Competition is the putting the Strand SL, Selecon Pacific, and Source Four into the same ring. They each provide the same basic functions and serve to turn electricity into light, then focus it with a ellipsoidal reflector. Yet, each has unique features that each company brought to the table out of their own innovations.

Lightronics building a shoddier version of the Source Four and every company on both sides of the Pacific using the recognizable design of a Source Four PAR to sell their incandescent and LED products is not the sort of competition that inspires genius or brilliant ideas. The fact that people will buy these products only incentivizes the further creation of ripped off designs. You cannot look at the GrandMA knock-off and see it as anything more than China, Inc trying to bypass the development costs GrandMA had to put into creating that product.

Technology isn't free, and no one is entitled to top-notch innovation at low prices. If GrandMA wants to charge a high price tag, we as customers should respect that they invested a lot of time and effort into creating those consoles and that they have the full right to do charge a lot for access to the fruits of their labor. We not support companies who want to pirate their design.

I am not attesting one way or another as to whether or not copyright infringement has been committed in this case, just that we as customers should be careful who we support and choose to buy our products from. The consequences of our purchases lie far beyond the checkout counter or invoice slip.

This topic has been a recurring theme in the last couple weeks here at CB, and it's important to discuss.
 
Ok so some things I have noticed here. Undoubtedly, the casing on the NW unit is a rip-off on some level. Looks to be the work of a very lazy industrial designer. So a patent violation on the case.
... snip ...

Shiben

While I agree with your post, the pedantic side of me has to speak out here. It is not a patent violation unless Martin filed a patent on the design of the case and, AFAIK it is not possible to patent a design unless it is quite unique. Now Martin has a neat way to let you change gobos with their 'Effects access hatch'. This feature / invention may be patentable - but the shape of the hatch is probably not patentable.

An exact copy of the housing design might be a violation of copyright laws, but probably not of patent law.
 
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I am not attesting one way or another as to whether or not copyright infringement has been committed in this case, just that we as customers should be careful who we support and choose to buy our products from. The consequences of our purchases lie far beyond the checkout counter or invoice slip.

This topic has been a recurring theme in the last couple weeks here at CB, and it's important to discuss.

This is totally fair.
 
250 16 insideDSCN0886.JPG

Competition is the putting the Strand SL, Selecon Pacific, and Source Four into the same ring. They each provide the same basic functions and serve to turn electricity into light, then focus it with a ellipsoidal reflector. Yet, each has unique features that each company brought to the table out of their own innovations.

Lightronics building a shoddier version of the Source Four and every company on both sides of the Pacific using the recognizable design of a Source Four PAR to sell their incandescent and LED products is not the sort of competition that inspires genius or brilliant ideas. The fact that people will buy these products only incentivizes the further creation of ripped off designs. You cannot look at the GrandMA knock-off and see it as anything more than China, Inc trying to bypass the development costs GrandMA had to put into creating that product.

Technology isn't free, and no one is entitled to top-notch innovation at low prices. If GrandMA wants to charge a high price tag, we as customers should respect that they invested a lot of time and effort into creating those consoles and that they have the full right to do charge a lot for access to the fruits of their labor. We not support companies who want to pirate their design.

I am not attesting one way or another as to whether or not copyright infringement has been committed in this case, just that we as customers should be careful who we support and choose to buy our products from. The consequences of our purchases lie far beyond the checkout counter or invoice slip.

This topic has been a recurring theme in the last couple weeks here at CB, and it's important to discuss.

Here is a photo of the optics on the 250-16 channel unit.
 
Ok so some things I have noticed here. Undoubtedly, the casing on the NW unit is a rip-off on some level. Looks to be the work of a very lazy industrial designer. So a patent violation on the case. The unit is by all accounts of people who have looked inside of it NOT the same unit. Obviously this is not OK, but I have seen a couple of posts in here that equate a case design to being fully copied design, which inflates the problem. Which brings in the burger analogy. Should NW fix this issue? Sure. If it was a serious enough problem, would Martin most likely have sued them? Yes. Clearly, their priorities are more in line with blatant knockoffs, which replicate the entire unit on a very low level of quality. Obviously those are a real issue, and no one should buy that crap.

But saying that no one should buy lower end units because it hinders innovation is clearly off base. By all accounts of end users, the NW units have less features, less service, and are of lower build quality. Probably justifies paying a ton less for them.

MNicolai, part of your argument is valid. However, I take issue with when you say buying lower end units ends up killing the original designer. Thats called competition. Ever used a cheap phone with a big touch screen that sort of looks like an iphone but running a crappier OS? Same idea. Someone else came in and figured out how to give similar features in a similar case for a lower price and sacrificed some of the quality. Should we be shooting down every low end iPod/iPhone lookalike because someone else engineered a better product with better support? Thats silly.

Further, honestly, thinking that MA, Avo and Martin are going to go out of business because someone is making s*** a** clones and selling them cheap, that professionals and other large buyers will move to those cheap units, is utter folly. When PRG or upstaging starts stocking cheap clones, let me know. I would guess that most of the people who buy cheap NW units are not even in Martin, VL and Barco's market. Either they get cheap MLs or they get none at all. Thus, your probably not actually taking away much business from the big ones, and realistically, the big buyers are going to keep buying from the big names. They know their product, and LDs all across the US and the world know the products, so choose to spec those. Let me know when the first tour rolls out with FINE ART units.

All this to say, this conversation has gotten to the point where its not really sensible. We just brought cave men into a discussion on highly technical equipment. It has been fairly well established by people using the units in the field that they are not in actuality full clones. What we might agree on is that they need to re-design their case. We could even host a design competition to further this goal, if NW is on board. Might be fun for the younger creative types? Who knows. The point is, however, that charges are getting flung around based on speculation of lawsuits which no one confirms, photographs of the outside, which end users claim is not the case on the inside, and blatant speculation. Im all for debating this issue, but can we keep it to facts we can prove, photographs so people can decide for themselves, and technical specifications?

Also, another thing thats bugging me. While many chinese companies produce crap for products, I think its unfair to label everything that comes out of China as junk and not worth investing in, which labels such as "China, Inc" tend to do.

And again, just to be clear. If the NW products are indeed clones, then yes, we should stifle them. However, Until evidence emerges, and more than just a post on a website saying that you cant get a profile for them, some concrete evidence (like a court filing), can we at least suppose that the maker had decent intentions? It seems like there is a rush to judge on a lot of counts here, and again, a lot of it is speculation.

Finally, a level headed response. I agree 100%.

Mike
 
I have opted to purchase used MAC250's rather than new "FAC250's" for a couple of reasons. One is reliability. I have had one single issue with one MAC250. The bolt that operates the focus mechanism got stuck. It was dirty and just needed some cleaning and lubrication to be back in business. The other reason is for cross rentability. No one is calling me asking to rent the Chinese versions, they want the real thing. And it works the other way, when I need to add fixtures there are literally hundreds of MAC250's in my area to pick up for the week.

For slightly more than the NW Lighting FX units you can buy used MAC250's that come with a case.
 
Where? Never seen a MAC 250 under 1000 bucks anywhere, except for maybe parts...

Yeah, the cheapest I have ever seen a MAC 250 is $2000. About the best reputable used price is $1500.

You can get the original units (not Kryptons or Encores) for $1000.

Mike
 
I was referring to the original MAC250's. I have mine on eBay for $1200 (buy a pair, get a case) but have a guy on his way right now to pick up a pair for $2000. There is a company close to me selling them in a 4-pack for a little over $4000 with a 4-way case. I would rather own these older versions than the off brand for the reasons I explained above. The Entours are nice, but for the price I can buy used pairs of MAC550's and 600's, or even a MAC2000.
 
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Wow, where are you getting these???

The best legit used price I can get for a MAC2K is $3500 each (and that is with the brother in law discount). I guess if you meant you could get 1 2K for the price of 2 Encores, then maybe.

Mike
 

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