I Need recommendations... For well... Everything

[Theatrrap]

Some quick numbers that make me think the way I do. A quick search for products has the following prices:

Right arm $1225.00
SeaChanger $995.00 (to much higher)

Then you probably want an EZ Iris so you can change the size. That costs $400.00+

Now add in the cost of a source four at about $300.

Without the iris I suggested the cost is $2520.00+ and with it is $2920.00+. Now keep in mind you can't do gobos (or if you do you just get the one) and you can't change focus (making that gobo useless if you did want the one). The cost of a used VL2500? Between $2000.00 and $2500.00 if you do your shopping. That means that for less money you get a light that is all in one and has more features, more punch, and more functionality. It has about the same moving parts and the only part that is inherently more expensive is the lamp, that give you a better output so it's worth it. Now you could argue that the VL2500 is a used fixture, but the prices for the the source four add ons were as well.

Lets go new.

Apollo Right Arm $1350.00
SeaChanger $1650.00
Source Four $365.00
Apollo EZ Iris $490.00

Bringing your light to a total cost of $3855.00. Now this light creates a lot of heat, has lamps that go out, can't change gobos, can't focus, can't zoom, has lots of moving parts that go bad, and has to be programmed as multiple fixtures (I realize that on new consoles they can be treated as one in programming, but they still all need to be patched properly to work that way.)

Lets look at a GLP Impression Spot One which is an LED light that takes less power, creates less heat, creates a brighter light output, has multiple gobos and spinning gobos, can focus and zoom, and is all in one.

$9849.00. Yes, more expensive, but 3 of these is far more powerful then 9 of the others and will last longer with less repairs and less operating costs.

 

[josh88]

And if I don't need all that, its much cheaper. I throw a right arm, on a source4 that I already have and that satisfies some people's needs. Not everybody needs multiple, rotating gobos or even the ability to change the color. It all depends on the scenario. The point is a bunch of people don't need all of the features of a moving light and only truly want 1 or 2 of the features. Using your numbers, for $1300 I can have a special that moves around and spots different moments for me. If I'm doing concerts and flash and trash, sure I'd pick something else.

An added benefit is that accessories can then be split up and used on other conventional giving places like schools and small local theaters versatility on a budget. Completely writing off what lwinters said because you don't like the advice and dislike right arms is as dumb as writing off movers completely. Its up to the person in the space or the consultant along with them to figure out what best suits their needs. This doesn't even touch on the studies that show that power usage and heat reduction in the grand scheme are pretty much negligible so that too would be another feature that may or may not matter to the scenario.

 

[Theatrrap]

Except that it really won't do multiple specials as the size isn't adjustable.

My space just bought 8 Mac Quantum Profiles, the first show, since their purchase, that hung the iCues with the EZ irises in them was the one we are in tech for right now. The designer is 90% through the show and has yet to turn on these fixtures. The plots since that time have had half the source fours and half the pars. On top of that, for over a year our two right arm fixtures have been sitting off to the side being deemed useless by our designers (that is before we bought the movers).

Movers take your inventory needs down by half. When buying new instead of upgrading, it simply doesn't make sense to not go mover. This is especially true if you don't yet have the dimmer rack, a simple 96 rack can cost you $24,000.00 on top of the copper, pucks, raceways, and lights.

Also, after thinking about it, we are talking about a difference of $700 on a $1300 purchase to get a VL2500 instead of a lightless Right Arm. That means for the cost of 3 right arms (which don't have lights yet mind you) you can get 2 VL2500 spot units. I know which I would rather have.

 

[soundlight]

First, I have to recommend what others have said that you get a consultant. However, I know that consultants are not always easy to come by. I'd say try your best to find one though, have them show you spaces they've designed, and go through what you like & what you want with them after seeing their work. They'll be able to think of all the little things that after your purchasing you'd think "Gah, I really could use that right now!" Totally worth it. However, I figured I'd throw something down here in case you feel that going it alone is your best option:

I have to say that at this point in technology I recommend completely against the Gafftaper Method for complete refurbs and new installs. LED Moving Lights have progressed to the point where they are very useful and look a lot better than they used to. You want something that changes color and beam size, moves around, and shoots some gobos? Spend the money right out of the gate on some Robe DL4S units. Rock solid reliability, great theatrical gobos, framing shutters, animation wheel, zoom, RGBW color mixing with a stepless dimming curve that will make you weep with joy, &c &c. These things are the creme de la creme. For wash movers, it's hard to beat the MAC Aura, but I'm more & more recommending the Chauvet stuff since it comes in at half the cost and is brighter and the colors are still as good. The Chauvet R2 Wash is a great light for theater. Just put 4 in to a high school. They're awesome. A dozen of these can be had for the price of half a dozen MAC Auras, and they've got a wider zoom range and the colors are just as good. The R2 spots are also great little units but they're color wheel based not color mixing and have no zoom, so not as good for theater, but still useful in the right situations. They do have a nice CTO filter in them though, and they're great little units for the money. Decent number of good gobos for theater, too.

For your standard wash, I'd go with ChromaQ Color One 100s. For cyc lights, I'd go with Altman Spectra Cycs. For ellipsoidals (front wash, side light/pipe ends, and gobos), Altman Phoenix LEDs.

For control, I am preferential to MA and ETC. If a straight theater space, an ETC GIO would be what I'd spec (this seems to be the case, and you're comfortable with ETC EOS/ION line desks). If more of an events space, or your LDs are more comfortable with MA, go MA2 Light or UltraLight. With the UltraLight you can easily get 2 touch monitors and put one of them where the blank space is on the right side of the console, saving you thousands if you don't need the moving faders, wrist rest keyboard, and internal UPS.

All said and done, a rig that is all LED static lights and LED movers requires no dimmer rack, less power, much less copper, and infinitely more flexibility. In a great world if your budget was in USD, (1) GIO w/ (1) ION as a remote, some networked nodes, (8) Robe DL4S (4 FOH, 4 over stage), (16) Chauvet R2 Wash (8 FOH, 8 over stage), (60) Phoenix LED, (40) Color One 100 (4 electrics, 7 fixtures per electric wash, and a few extra fixtures to put different places), and (14) Spectra Cyc 100 (7 up 7 down, or double up at the top). If this is USD and your bid is competitive, you should have almost a hundred thousand left over for purchasing, running, & installing cable, getting a few circuits dropped where you need them, and giving the rigging system a good once-over.

If it's in Shekels, that's a lot less, get an ION with a 2x10 fader wing, some Phoenix LEDs for front light, some Color One 100s for top light, and some Spectra Cycs for cyc/backdrop light and call it a day. Add a 4-6 R2 Washes if room allows. Everything has powercon in/out, everything is auto-detect on voltage, everything has 5-pin in/out. Power link & call it a day. This simple rig can run off of less than a dozen standard outlets.

 

[Theatrrap]

First, I have to recommend what others have said that you get a consultant. However, I know that consultants are not always easy to come by. I'd say try your best to find one though, have them show you spaces they've designed, and go through what you like & what you want with them after seeing their work. They'll be able to think of all the little things that after your purchasing you'd think "Gah, I really could use that right now!" Totally worth it. However, I figured I'd throw something down here in case you feel that going it alone is your best option:

I have to say that at this point in technology I recommend completely against the Gafftaper Method for complete refurbs and new installs. LED Moving Lights have progressed to the point where they are very useful and look a lot better than they used to. You want something that changes color and beam size, moves around, and shoots some gobos? Spend the money right out of the gate on some Robe DL4S units. Rock solid reliability, great theatrical gobos, framing shutters, animation wheel, zoom, RGBW color mixing with a stepless dimming curve that will make you weep with joy, &c &c. These things are the creme de la creme. For wash movers, it's hard to beat the MAC Aura, but I'm more & more recommending the Chauvet stuff since it comes in at half the cost and is brighter and the colors are still as good. The Chauvet R2 Wash is a great light for theater. Just put 4 in to a high school. They're awesome. A dozen of these can be had for the price of half a dozen MAC Auras, and they've got a wider zoom range and the colors are just as good. The R2 spots are also great little units but they're color wheel based not color mixing and have no zoom, so not as good for theater, but still useful in the right situations. They do have a nice CTO filter in them though, and they're great little units for the money. Decent number of good gobos for theater, too.

For your standard wash, I'd go with ChromaQ Color One 100s. For cyc lights, I'd go with Altman Spectra Cycs. For ellipsoidals (front wash, side light/pipe ends, and gobos), Altman Phoenix LEDs.

For control, I am preferential to MA and ETC. If a straight theater space, an ETC GIO would be what I'd spec (this seems to be the case, and you're comfortable with ETC EOS/ION line desks). If more of an events space, or your LDs are more comfortable with MA, go MA2 Light or UltraLight. With the UltraLight you can easily get 2 touch monitors and put one of them where the blank space is on the right side of the console, saving you thousands if you don't need the moving faders, wrist rest keyboard, and internal UPS.

All said and done, a rig that is all LED static lights and LED movers requires no dimmer rack, less power, much less copper, and infinitely more flexibility. In a great world if your budget was in USD, (1) GIO w/ (1) ION as a remote, some networked nodes, (8) Robe DL4S (4 FOH, 4 over stage), (16) Chauvet R2 Wash (8 FOH, 8 over stage), (60) Phoenix LED, (40) Color One 100 (4 electrics, 7 fixtures per electric wash, and a few extra fixtures to put different places), and (14) Spectra Cyc 100 (7 up 7 down, or double up at the top). If this is USD and your bid is competitive, you should have almost a hundred thousand left over for purchasing, running, & installing cable, getting a few circuits dropped where you need them, and giving the rigging system a good once-over.

If it's in Shekels, that's a lot less, get an ION with a 2x10 fader wing, some Phoenix LEDs for front light, some Color One 100s for top light, and some Spectra Cycs for cyc/backdrop light and call it a day. Add a 4-6 R2 Washes if room allows. Everything has powercon in/out, everything is auto-detect on voltage, everything has 5-pin in/out. Power link & call it a day. This simple rig can run off of less than a dozen standard outlets.

Again, I wouldn't stick with the exact fixtures someone recommends if you can find a better one with research, but Soundlight makes some great points here.

 

[gafftaper]

Although I am of consultants, but I am also a fan of going to the people who will be using the gear for input as well. Since it may be hard to find a consultant, perhaps you should turn to the lighting people who usually do the design work in your space. Perhaps hire an outside lighting designer to come in and collaborate with your usual designer to come up with several rep plots and ideas for ways to best light different sorts of shows. From there work backward. Let the actual need for the space drive the purchasing decisions.

I came up with the Gafftaper method when I did something similar to this myself. I was creating a lighting equipment package for a new space. I started by doing multiple lighting designs for the types of events we planned to do in the theater. Then I said, what equipment do I need to fulfill these needs? Although I originally was eager to purchase several movers because they are sexy, I quickly saw that 99% of the time all I really needed were gobo rotators, I-Cue's, Right Arms, and Seachanger. For my space, it was far more practical to have 20 Seachangers than it was to have 4 movers. Today I work in a space where the consultant went with the "anti-gafftaper method". I have four Revolutions... Which I love, but don't have enough conventional fixtures to properly wash the stage.

As a counterpoint to what @soundlight just said, I want to clarify a key point of "the method" which has been often overlooked. The Gafftaper Method is only for smaller educational theaters, churches, and small community theaters. Places where there is not a large annual budget for maintenance, where there is not a full technical staff, and where programming time and the skills of the person doing the programming is limited. These are places where expensive movers may wait months or years until there is money available to fix them. These are places where the programming is fairly simple, the needs are not complicated, and the budget doesn’t allow more than an hour of programming for a show. Yes the new gear is more useful and gets more reasonably priced by the day, but there are still a lot of places out there that will spend $6,000 on a mover and only use it to quickly reposition and change color on a special. When they could have had 3 Seachanger with I-Cue's/Right Arms that do the same job for the same price.

 

[GreyWyvern]

Yeah, don't listen to anything lwinters630 said.

... recommending a piece of technology that was a flop from the start shouldn't be advice to be listened to. I may not be an active member of this forum but my 15 years of professional experience in this industry does tell me some things.

I would say that in this day anyone recommending against the purchase of movers is short sighted.

Always better to go with the real thing IMHO.

Great! Another one of "those" people! We can always use more of them (ruining a great forum). /sarcasm Seriously, you may want to tone it down a bit. People acting like you don't last too long here. There are so many other people with much more knowledge and experience than you that can, and are more than willing, to put you in your place. That is, if they feel you are worth the time. This is a great forum with more knowledge already here than you could ever know what to do with. Just because you have a mere 15+ years "professional" experience doesn't mean you know everything. All that aside from the fact that, as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of different people here in a lot of different positions. You never know who your next potential employer may be. It would be a shame to not get a job because of something you said here that the person looking to hire sees, even if not said to them directly. You might want to act more professionally.

a piece of technology that was a flop from the start

Am I correct that you are referring to the Right Arm? I'm very interested in knowing why it was a "flop from the start" in your opinion. What about your personal experience using one made you feel that way? If you would rather not say here, please start a conversation with me. Remember, just because something is or isn't right for you or your specific needs, that doesn't mean it is or isn't right for someone else or their specific needs.

 

[Theatrrap]

Am I correct that you are referring to the Right Arm? I'm very interested in knowing why it was a "flop from the start" in your opinion. What about your personal experience using one made you feel that way? If you would rather not say here, please start a conversation with me. Remember, just because something is or isn't right for you or your specific needs, that doesn't mean it is or isn't right for someone else or their specific needs.

Yes, another person that thinks it's better to buy the right gear rather then piece meal something together that won't really do the job. Why do I think the right arm was a flop? Lets see, I have worked with 4 theaters and one school that purchased the right arm for many years. I have seen them actually used in a total of 3 productions in that time and the rest of the time they sit off to the side either broken or just unwanted by every designer. I have worked on hundreds of broadway tours and have never seen one. I have yet to see a decent rep plot that has a right arm. I can't think of a time where I would want a right arm without an EZ iris and a sea changer and as discussed before if you have both of those you are paying more then for a VL2500 and while you mention repairs being a problem, these items need repairs as well, including the right arm. Every company here that has a right arm has one simply because our local distributor pushed them touting how great they are and yet no one actually uses them. I would be very interested to see a plot with a really good use for a right arm. I haven't yet.

 

[RickR]

The point of a consultant is to help the owner/user understand these issues and balance them. Their priorities, their budgets, their staff etc. are what matter. The only truly wrong answer is that there is only one way to solve a problem.

 

[GreyWyvern]

Yes, another person that thinks it's better to buy the right gear rather then piece meal something together that won't really do the job. Why do I think the right arm was a flop? Lets see, I have worked with 4 theaters and one school that purchased the right arm for many years. I have seen them actually used in a total of 3 productions in that time and the rest of the time they sit off to the side either broken or just unwanted by every designer. I have worked on hundreds of broadway tours and have never seen one. I have yet to see a decent rep plot that has a right arm. I can't think of a time where I would want a right arm without an EZ iris and a sea changer and as discussed before if you have both of those you are paying more then for a VL2500 and while you mention repairs being a problem, these items need repairs as well, including the right arm. Every company here that has a right arm has one simply because our local distributor pushed them touting how great they are and yet no one actually uses them. I would be very interested to see a plot with a really good use for a right arm. I haven't yet.

Is there actually anyone that would rather piece meal something together that won't really do the job rather than buy the right gear? That seems just ridiculous! I can't imagine why anyone would do that. Which is exactly why the Right Arm is such a good seller and has been used in a number of major installations. For instance, it was so much so the right gear that The Met in NYC installed 72 white units during a renovation several years ago. GM uses 400 custom units with a custom LED unit and a custom PRO scroller to light their area at the auto shows and have done so for over 4 years now. University of Notre Dame has a dozen units that have Source Fours with 10 degree lenses on them. We even developed a counter balance system for the Right Arm for them so they could use the Right Arm because it was the right gear to buy. They have been installed in night clubs with projectors mounted to them. A few installations have speakers mounted to them. I know that a few times a snow machine has been mounted to one with great success. Would your precious VL2500 be able to do those things? I think not. I would even go as far as to say that it would be the wrong gear. There are plenty of rep plots that have Right Arms on them. I bet they are decent plots too. I'm sure there are many more rep plots that don't have a Right Arm, or dare I say a VL2500, and they are decent plots too. Why would a plot not be decent? That would be like, buying a Right Arm when what you really need is a VL2500. It would be kind of stupid. On the flip side. it would be pretty stupid to buy a VL2500 when a Right Arm is what you really need. I think it's great you have a fixture you seem to be married to and think is so great and precious. However, I don't think you can base what is the right or wrong gear for another space based off of that. Each space is unique and has unique needs. Some have Right Arms and no VL2500s; some have VL2500s and no Right Arms. I'd even bet that there are some spaces that have both Right Arms and Vl2500s!
A great selling point for the Right Arm is that it is maintenance free. Of the nearly 3000 units that have been sold in the 8-9 years of the Right Arm, less than 1% have had issues. A few units have had a harness that wasn't wrapped properly which led to a wire breaking. There have been some PCB failures, but that is to be expected in anything that has a PCB. Electronic parts can go bad. The Right Arm is one of the most reliable things Apollo builds. It is far from a flop. If it was, we wouldn't be selling it. (see: Gel Miser and Clip Light) The trouble people have with the Right Arm is in the balancing of the attached item. Users either don't understand the concept or don't take the time to balance it properly. One of the most frequent tech support calls I get has to do with "the Right Arm pan is working fine, but the tilt slips or doesn't move and just makes noise". That is why we occasionally hear of Right Arms that just "sit off to the side" not being used. Unfortunately, the user just didn't take the time to learn how to use it properly.

 

[gafftaper]

...there are a lot of different people here in a lot of different positions. You never know who your next potential employer may be. It would be a shame to not get a job because of something you said here that the person looking to hire sees, even if not said to them directly. You might want to act more professionally.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Private messages have been sent to handle things. Everyone play nice and let's get back to helping the OP or I'm closing this thread.

 

[masterelectrician2112]

I have to agree with those who are saying to get a consultant. We can tell you that you need this and you need that, but at the end of the day, none of us know enough about you or your situation to know exactly what you need. A GrandMA2 is great in some situations, but without proper training (which is another budget line item), it won't be used to its full potential. Those kind of things and be easily overlooked without the guidance of a professional. Especially with that budget, you can afford to hire a consultant to make sure that you get the most for your money. I can recommend an excellent one if you would like to PM me. Not to be rude, but I don't really understand how any specific products at all are being recommended when none of us have seen your space, know the types of shows you do, or what the knowledge level of the end user will be. It can't be done because so many people have personal opinions about what products are good and what are not as you can see from the above exchange. A theatre consultant is going to take the time to get to know you and your needs and come up with a solution that will not just look nice for a couple years, but will hopefully outlive your time in that theater.

 

[kicknargel]

Everyone play nice and let's get back to helping the OP or I'm closing this thread.

Haven't heard from the OP in a while. I say let's keep speculating and insulting each other. Isn't that what the internet is for?

 

[Theatrrap]

I will have to agree to disagree with Dave, I suppose there is no changing the mind of an Apollo technician, who likely designed the product, about an Apollo product. That said, I don't believe that I have yet to insult anyone aside from possibly lwinter630 to which I already apologized. I still stand by my recommendations as well as the recommendations of @soundlight

I am sorry if my opinion isn't well appreciated, that said it is my opinion and as I am getting trashed on here for disagreeing with the opinion of the manufacturer of a product I do find it funny that no one minds that my opinion is being suppressed and I am getting flak for having it. I will be sure to keep my opinions to myself in the future. Thanks for making me feel welcome.

 

[Theatrrap]

I have to agree with those who are saying to get a consultant. We can tell you that you need this and you need that, but at the end of the day, none of us know enough about you or your situation to know exactly what you need. A GrandMA2 is great in some situations, but without proper training (which is another budget line item), it won't be used to its full potential. Those kind of things and be easily overlooked without the guidance of a professional. Especially with that budget, you can afford to hire a consultant to make sure that you get the most for your money. I can recommend an excellent one if you would like to PM me. Not to be rude, but I don't really understand how any specific products at all are being recommended when none of us have seen your space, know the types of shows you do, or what the knowledge level of the end user will be. It can't be done because so many people have personal opinions about what products are good and what are not as you can see from the above exchange. A theatre consultant is going to take the time to get to know you and your needs and come up with a solution that will not just look nice for a couple years, but will hopefully outlive your time in that theater.

Well put. As a reminder, I did give specific fixtures and then said don't get these specific fixtures but rather use them as a basis for comparison to start. Degree angles and such are important and need to be considered, but the fixtures I gave were of a professional quality and something similar with the right needs for the space would be a great option for any performance space doing live productions.

 

[lwinters630]

Hi guys,

I was just given a 350k budget to completely redo our theatre's lighting systems. We have mostly theatre events as well as the occasional game show and speaker.

We have 700 seats and the stage is approximately 20m x 22m.

What do you guys think I need help with everything. What and how much. Controllers ,dimmers, lamps, gels, and whatever else you can think of.

Hope you guys can help
John

John
I like the Gafftaper method, but in order to help we need more information from you. If you list the information in US dollars, Feet and inches it would save everyone a lot of converting. If you have a stage and auditorium drawing with dimensions, proscenium sizes, the locations and trim heights, number and type of dimmers, number and type of current fixtures, lighting board. Do you have guest designers or mostly yourself.

I hope you can reply back soon so we can get this thread back on track. As always, these will just be ideas, feel free to question them to see if they will meet your needs.

Looking forward to you reply.

 

[CraigV]

I am sorry if my opinion isn't well appreciated, that said it is my opinion and as I am getting trashed on here for disagreeing with the opinion of the manufacturer of a product I do find it funny that no one minds that my opinion is being suppressed and I am getting flak for having it. I will be sure to keep my opinions to myself in the future. Thanks for making me feel welcome.

(And other people but I don't want to find specific people. Really sorry to single you out, Theatrrap.)

(Perhaps splitting this topic could help.)

It is important to remember that we all have different opinions on different equipment, and that we all have different backgrounds—age, experience, location, education (to name a few—and that this profession is one where we inevitably stress and overwork ourselves, and think that our opinions are the only ones that really matter. But it's also important to remember that civility is key to happiness and that it's easy to feel attacked when many people are chiming in with their opinions—and when you are the only one defending your opinion.

 

[gafftaper]

It is important to remember that we all have different opinions on different equipment, and that we all have different backgrounds—age, experience, location, education (to name a few—and that this profession is one where we inevitably stress and overwork ourselves, and think that our opinions are the only ones that really matter. But it's also important to remember that civility is key to happiness and that it's easy to feel attacked when many people are chiming in with their opinions—and when you are the only one defending your opinion.

Nicely said.

CB is an educational forum where we value all voices and opinions. Some of us have been at this for 30 or 40 years, or more. Others are just learning things now for the first time. This is a community and everyone has value and everyone's voice needs to be heard. It's totally okay to disagree with someone (or dislike a product) but use your brain and do so respectfully. You will note that my friend @soundlight and I disagreed earlier in this thread. But we are still cool and I don't hate him any more than I did yesterday. As everyone should have learned in kindgarten, you can disagree with an idea without attacking the person.

This may be a website accessed on the internet, but this is a community and we defend it by not allowing people to act like they normally do on the internet.

 

[AsherSB]

Back to the original post,
Before looking for consultants, go talk with the staff at other theaters. See who they used for consulting, or if they did it all in house. If it seems like there is one consultant/group of consultants recommended, you've found your'e guy! If no one gets recommended, at least you have had a chance to meet some other industry professionals. Once you find a consultant, post any questions you have about their recommendations here, I can guarantee you'll find nothing but helpful feedback.