Control/Dimming incandescent to LED

[flyweed]

Hey folks

Ok, we are at that point for our 650 seat auditorium that we'd LIKE to replace our auditorium lighting (over the seating area) from the standard 300 watt incandescent bulbs to LED bulbs. Of course they need to dim. SO...this is where I am at. So our stage lighting is controlled through our ETc ION, and we run standard Sensor Dimmer racks, which also runs the current house light dimming capabilities as well.

SO..what do I Need to look at for both bulbs, and digital dimming for those bulbs. I know many LED bulbs currently dim nicely to about 5% and then are instant off and on after that. I don't want that..I want 100% smooth dimming from 0%(blackout) to 100% full.

Has anyone here made the switch in their house lights yet? We have 60 house light fixtures that we are looking at changing over

Thanks for any input.

 

[Amiers]

Put a ghost load on the dimmers that run your house lights and you should be fine.

I don’t know what you mean by digital dimming unless you are thinking there will be a led driver and psu connected which is a much bigger overhaul than an led bulb.

Others will come along and tell you the specific lamps you will want. Depending on your socket/base that your fixtures take. But no led lamp that I’ve seen or heard about does a true smooth 0 out unless it’s an actual fixture.

 

[RonHebbard]

Put a ghost load on the dimmers that run your house lights and you should be fine.

I don’t know what you mean by digital dimming unless you are thinking there will be a led driver and psu connected which is a much bigger overhaul than an led bulb.

Others will come along and tell you the specific lamps you will want. Depending on your socket/base that your fixtures take. But no led lamp that I’ve seen or heard about does a true smooth 0 out unless it’s an actual fixture.

@flyweed and @Amiers An ETC dealer in London, Ontario (Horizon Solutions) recently completed an installation replacing every incandescent source in Kitchener / Waterloo, Ontario's Centre In The Square with the latest and greatest snazzy new LED's from a manufacturer across the pond in England. I could have the country incorrect. I believe ETC bought the company for their bleeding edge technology and products. The installation in 'Centre In The Square' was a flagship installation for ETC which they CLOSELY supervised and finessed to the Nth degree. The installation went quickly with all users being ecstatic and nary a bad word on the street. In my mind this feels like six months ago. I very much suspect you could read about the installation on ETC's website. 'Centre In The Square' is an approximately 2,000 seat multi-purpose hall with one or two apron lifts flexibly accommodating patron seating, apron space, pit, symphony or large choral groups. The lighting's color temperature, CRI, etcetera needed to satisfy the needs of several EXTREMELY picky users.
Word on the street is: The cost was STEEEEP but everyone's delighted.
Emergency, work, aisle and cleaning lighting was included along with UPS's with batteries to cover the time required for the diesel generator to start and stabilize. I suspect even @derekleffew @MNicolai and possibly @BillConnerFASTC would be satisfied. You, @flyweed may find it up to snuff as well. (How many rail cars of cash are you prepared to invest?)
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

What Ron describes sounds like the ETC Arc Light line - fixture replacement. Besides excellent dimming and color, the Arc Light has some features or options that make it especially suited to replace.

Even with a ghost load I don't believe the low end dimming will be as beautiful as incandescent. If you won't replace the fixture and provide constant power and data - the best long term option - then there are two lamps that might do it for you. One is RLED. The other the Zobo by Luxium Lighting. The RLED dims well but doesn't come out of black quite as smoothly. Good thing us it's a screw in replacement and your controls are unchanged. The Zobo retrofits in your fixture but requires constant power and data - wired or wireless. Good white or RGBLW.

 

[sk8rsdad]

If you are switching to LED to reduce your electricity bill (aka carbon footprint) then systems that are "always on" isn't the optimimum way to go. The most efficient circuit is the one that is truly off.

The best dimming results for an LED retrofit lamp are likely to come from swapping dimmer modules for the ELV variant but it very much depends on the retrofit lamp selected and the tuning of dimmer curves and thresholds to minimize the on or off bump. ETC can help a lot with this as they have oodles of experience and technical data on specific LED lamps. Other tricks include leaving some of your incandescent fixtures in place and sequencing the fade so they are last off and first on.

FWIW, in my venue it was more economical to leave the houselights as-is (12 x 500W) and install separate LED high bay work lights. That decision was made by modelling the usage patterns for the auditorium and recognizing the incandescent lights were needed for about 1 hour per performance. A work light system provides better illumination when there wasn't an audience which is most of the time.

 

[microstar]

Hey folks

Ok, we are at that point for our 650 seat auditorium that we'd LIKE to replace our auditorium lighting (over the seating area) from the standard 300 watt incandescent bulbs to LED bulbs. Of course they need to dim. SO...this is where I am at. So our stage lighting is controlled through our ETc ION, and we run standard Sensor Dimmer racks, which also runs the current house light dimming capabilities as well.

SO..what do I Need to look at for both bulbs, and digital dimming for those bulbs. I know many LED bulbs currently dim nicely to about 5% and then are instant off and on after that. I don't want that..I want 100% smooth dimming from 0%(blackout) to 100% full.

Has anyone here made the switch in their house lights yet? We have 60 house light fixtures that we are looking at changing over

Thanks for any input.

Let's see.... you have 60 fixtures, so that many RLED retrofits at estimated $700 each would only be $42,000 plus installation!

 

[Carl Lukings]

Hi there.

BillConnor is correct. The fixtures at Centre in the Square in Kitchener Ontario are ETC Arc fixtures.

Although a ghost load will sometimes help with the issue of poor dimming with LED on a standard dimmer the reality is that it's a bandaid. The true solution is to go to fixtures as already noted, ARC System from ETC or rLED are booth good solutions.

ETC and some other brands have great dimmers designed for working with LEDs but you'll want to check out what they're doing and how they interact with your specific led bulbs before spending the cash. Check out ETC's LED Dimming Compatibility database for some light reading. When you start to read between the lines you'll quickly find that there's more to the story than "that dimmer will dim everything". It doesn't work that way.

http://www.etcconnect.com/compatibility/

sk8rsdad is absolutely correct that installing a proper relay in line with your led fixtures is a must. There's a reason that these fixtures typically have 50,000hr life ratings but the power supplies carry warranties of 1-5 years.

Do your research or you'll end up spending money you don't need to. But to do it right it's going to cost more than you think. Especially if you're budgeting your theatre house light upgrade based on this weekend's Home Depot flyer.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Let's see.... you have 60 fixtures, so that many RLED retrofits at estimated $700 each would only be $42,000 plus installation!

I thought they had broken the $500 level but don't know for sure. But if that really good unsacraficed low end dimming , it may be the lowest cost solution. LED retrofit lamps on any mainstage dimmer will not perform as the OP wanted.

Better to replace fixture still.

 

[flyweed]

Thanks for all the input so far...SO let's get the "Low cost, low budget" talk out of the way already..I've seen the comments about the Home Depot LED's and such... So just to put those remarks at rest..we are looking to spend about $60,000 for this upgrade. SO....with that said, Our current lamps are "screw in" type 300 watt (PS35). SO..IF there is a simple "replacement LED" bulb, without having to rework our dimmers, etc, I'd love to hear about them. Again our budget can accommodate a good number of variations I'd imagine

 

[flyweed]

What Ron describes sounds like the ETC Arc Light line - fixture replacement. Besides excellent dimming and color, the Arc Light has some features or options that make it especially suited to replace.

Even with a ghost load I don't believe the low end dimming will be as beautiful as incandescent. If you won't replace the fixture and provide constant power and data - the best long term option - then there are two lamps that might do it for you. One is RLED. The other the Zobo by Luxium Lighting. The RLED dims well but doesn't come out of black quite as smoothly. Good thing us it's a screw in replacement and your controls are unchanged. The Zobo retrofits in your fixture but requires constant power and data - wired or wireless. Good white or RGBLW.

BILL C.........where can I get MORE info on the RLED's retrofits?

 

[Kelite]

I visited with John Luhrs of Canto USA at LDI a year ago, then again at USITT. (Good guy, by the way) The RLED retrofit is available in various wattages

https://www.cantousa.com/retro/

Per the company webspeak:
"The RETRO-Classic™ and RETRO-Passive™ is a 0-100% phase dimmable (forward and reverse) variable wattage LED 2700K-6500K 80-97 CRI engine. Designed for SCR, TRIAC, or IGBT dimmers. This light engine is a direct replacement of existing incandescent lamps in a wide range of applications. Specific socket adapters enable simple installation. Custom and standard mounting options are available."

 

[Amiers]

Thanks for all the input so far...SO let's get the "Low cost, low budget" talk out of the way already..I've seen the comments about the Home Depot LED's and such... So just to put those remarks at rest..we are looking to spend about $60,000 for this upgrade. SO....with that said, Our current lamps are "screw in" type 300 watt (PS35). SO..IF there is a simple "replacement LED" bulb, without having to rework our dimmers, etc, I'd love to hear about them. Again our budget can accommodate a good number of variations I'd imagine

You should of led with I got 60k to spend.

FWIW most people come here asking this question a lot, discussion ensues only to find out they have 0 budget and the conversation fizzles out.

It’s nice to see someone with a bit of money try to overhaul. Are you trying to spend it all or diversify and spend elsewhere.

Personally if you got the money go with ETC retrofit as they already make up the majority of your equipment.

 

[microstar]

Thanks for all the input so far...SO let's get the "Low cost, low budget" talk out of the way already..I've seen the comments about the Home Depot LED's and such... So just to put those remarks at rest..we are looking to spend about $60,000 for this upgrade. SO....with that said, Our current lamps are "screw in" type 300 watt (PS35). SO..IF there is a simple "replacement LED" bulb, without having to rework our dimmers, etc, I'd love to hear about them. Again our budget can accommodate a good number of variations I'd imagine

The local city auditorium (1477 seats, 50'x20' proscenium) ripped out 40 very old and large ceiling can lights (except under balcony) and replaced 1 for 1 with 100w Altman Chalice DMX LED fixtures in various beam spreads with custom trim rings. Total cost was about $56K including installation. See the comparison below:

 

[microstar]

And Muskogee Little Theatre (271 seats) did their new space with nine Light SourceHL series DMX LED pendant fixtures (10 year warranty on the entire fixture):

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

As noted above, You best bang for the buck is replace fixture. It seems you have the budget to go to Gotham's Incito - fixture cost in the $500 range. I'd have to noodle a while to say 4" or 6" and lumen package, but you want the Eldo- led dmx driver option with 0.1 dimming. Both recessed and pendant available. But it can't be used for EM.

The ETC fixture would be great but last asked in the $1500-1800 range. It may have come down - I don't know. Recessed is limited. Primarily pendant. With install well over your $60k.

The ColorSource PAR makes an excellent house light and is good for EM and a good buy.

There are other architectural lines that are fine IF you get them with the Eldo-led driver noted above, but none I know if that are good for EM.

I wish you'd get a sample of the Luxium and report how it dimmed. Get the wired DMX I think.

If I were consulting on this, there's many details not yet revealed that could make any of my suggestions invalid. EM, ease to have constant power, recessed or pendant (or other?), and what lamp you have send us it best in terms of spread and lumens.

So lots if directions and a few questions