Lights for the round

[Murphy913]

I am in need of new lights for productions in the round. Currently I am using a handful of ellipsoidals and par cans... I placed two cyclights on either side of the length of the stage which seemed to help but to me doesn't seem ideal.

Can anyone recommend good border lights that can provide a good, even wash?

 

[jglodeklights]

I am in need of new lights for productions in the round. Currently I am using a handful of ellipsoidals and par cans... I placed two cyclights on either side of the length of the stage which seemed to help but to me doesn't seem ideal.

Can anyone recommend good border lights that can provide a good, even wash?

Well, having knowledge of your current inventory of units and the size of the stage and the type of theater space you are working in would be quite useful. As the first show I ever designed lighting for was in the round, and ended up with quite an even wash, I know that ellipsoidals can be used to create an even wash in the round. We can make suggestions, but only if we know what there is to work with to start with.

 

[derekleffew]

I don't think I understand the question, Murphy913. Fixtures for in-the-round productions are no different than fixtures for thrust or proscenium presentations.

I'm also not sure borderlights would be of much use to you, as they are generally used as downlight.

Perhaps something from the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/6898-color-3-4-round.html might help?

Cyc lights can make a nice wash, but you need three, preferably four, and due to their lack of control, I'd only use them to add color in addition to my ERS or Fresnel (or PAR) area lights (face lights--45° up and 45° off center). Arena staging just always requires more fixtures, as you have to light from every direction the audience is looking.

 

[Murphy913]

I don't think I understand the question, Murphy913. Fixtures for in-the-round productions are no different than fixtures for thrust or proscenium presentations.

Perhaps I should change my question... I am simply thinking of in the round currently because that is the stage we have set up...

The biggest problem I am having is spill... The stage is 20' by 25' and seating for the house is about 5' off from the edge of the stage... I am having trouble containing my wash to just the stage... perhaps that's the question I should have asked from the beginning...

 

[xander]

Perhaps I should change my question... I am simply thinking of in the round currently because that is the stage we have set up...

The biggest problem I am having is spill... The stage is 20' by 25' and seating for the house is about 5' off from the edge of the stage... I am having trouble containing my wash to just the stage... perhaps that's the question I should have asked from the beginning...

If your problem is control and spill management, then borderlights are the last thing you will want. They have no control. The most controllable light is that from an ellipsoidal. If you can't afford that, next best would probably be a fresnel with barndoors.

 

[Les]

If your hang is really close to the stage, you will probably want to skip ellipsoidals entirely. I've tried close-range in-the-round hangs with ellipsoidals and it is extremely difficult to eliminate shutter cuts and dark spots between beams, even with a soft focus. If you do go with ellipsoidals, you will probably need to frost them heavily, but by then, you had might as well gone with fresnels. Depending on the circumstances, some spill on to the audience may need to be accepted in order to sufficiently light the stage. That's one of the quirks with working in an intimate space-- sometimes the audience is more involved in the show than they had expected!

 

[xander]

If your hang is really close to the stage, you will probably want to skip ellipsoidals entirely. I've tried close-range in-the-round hangs with ellipsoidals and it is extremely difficult to eliminate shutter cuts and dark spots between beams, even with a soft focus.

Can you clarify what you mean here?

 

[Les]

Can you clarify what you mean here?

Yes. I have noticed that when trying to blend ellipsoidals from a close range, it can be hard to eliminate the dip between each beam, due to the defined cone shape of the beam. I was doing Clue in-the-round and the set was more like a square -- there was a center stage area, and there was a small 8'x8' stage in each corner of the venue (this was a blackbox). The audience sat on each side of the center area. Think "tic-tac-toe board".

My original plot called for 12x 36 degree ellipsoidals to light this center area (3 from each side). The fixtures were to be placed up and behind each seating area which was approximately 12' deep and about 15' from the actual stage. On the first night of tech, the shadows and peaks and valleys the actors were walking through were driving me insane. Though ever so slight, they were there. I had used the ellipsoidals to afford me the most control and to hopefully avoid glare and spill in to the opposing audience's eyes, but the apparent trade-off was that the beam was a little too defined at this close of a range (it is possible that if the audience wasn't so close to the subject, the subtle differences in lighting from area to area wouldn't have been noticed). Lack of dimmer channels prevented me from doubling up on instruments.
The next day I replaced each ellipsoidal with a 6" fresnel and the problems went away. Unfortunately, we didn't have tophats or barndoors, so the glare and spill just had to be accepted (this was a low 12' grid). Overall, I found that if you can afford a small loss in control, fresnels are almost always the way to go in intimate, in-the-round settings. I know that the OP's situation may be very different, and may not be at all "intimate", but hopefully this helps.

 

[Murphy913]

Yes. I have noticed that when trying to blend ellipsoidals from a close range, it can be hard to eliminate the dip between each beam, due to the defined cone shape of the beam. I was doing Clue in-the-round and the set was more like a square -- there was a center stage area, and there was a small 8'x8' stage in each corner of the venue (this was a blackbox). The audience sat on each side of the center area. Think "tic-tac-toe board".

My original plot called for 12x 36 degree ellipsoidals to light this center area (3 from each side). The fixtures were to be placed up and behind each seating area which was approximately 12' deep and about 15' from the actual stage. On the first night of tech, the shadows and peaks and valleys the actors were walking through were driving me insane. Though ever so slight, they were there. I had used the ellipsoidals to afford me the most control and to hopefully avoid glare and spill in to the opposing audience's eyes, but the apparent trade-off was that the beam was a little too defined at this close of a range (it is possible that if the audience wasn't so close to the subject, the subtle differences in lighting from area to area wouldn't have been noticed). Lack of dimmer channels prevented me from doubling up on instruments.
The next day I replaced each ellipsoidal with a 6" fresnel and the problems went away. Unfortunately, we didn't have tophats or barndoors, so the glare and spill just had to be accepted (this was a low 12' grid). Overall, I found that if you can afford a small loss in control, fresnels are almost always the way to go in intimate, in-the-round settings. I know that the OP's situation may be very different, and may not be at all "intimate", but hopefully this helps.

What you described is almost exactly what I have been seeing... The setting you described is what we have. 2 rows of seating a few feet from the stage. I used ellipsoidals to have more control but in return found shadows between each beam, much like you described.

If fresnels are the way to go any suggestions on ones to buy, we currently don't have any in our inventory... THe hang for each light is about 5 feet from the stage...

 

[Les]

I used Altman 1KAF's because that's what we had. Really, any <6" fresnel will do, including the Altman 65Q. I'll bet there is a local theatre around you that would be more than happy to loan you some fixtures.

Good luck!

 

[jglodeklights]

The problem with your set up as described is that grid height of 12' versus the beam size of a 36, not with using ERS units as lighting for in the round. At a height of 12' for the grid, unless you side yoke or over hang the units (if at all possible) they are going to be no higher than 11 feet off the ground (unless you short yoke). This isn't very high, and results in a low angle of incidence, which doesn't allow for much spill control in the first place.

And all lighting units have a defined cone shape to the actual beam (although with Flood PARs it is actually an ellipse). What you were probably noticing with the Fresnels is that most can be focused between at least 10 and 60 degrees, which is much broader than your 36's. Focused improperly, you can get valleys between acting areas just like an ERS, but with it looking more like you put a diffusion gel like R132 or R119 in the unit.

Should you be unable to find Fresnels you can use, pulling the lenses out of the lens tubes in the ERS's will give you units with a broad throw that you can still easily color (versus just pulling the lens tubes out and leaving them so). It just requires a little bit of work, and I HIGHLY recommend inserting a metal screen (like that used on CYC lights) of some sort into the pattern slot to act as a safety should the lamp happen to shatter. Don't want glass shooting out the front of the unit!

 

[Les]

The problem with your set up as described is that grid height of 12' versus the beam size of a 36, not with using ERS units as lighting for in the round. At a height of 12' for the grid, unless you side yoke or over hang the units (if at all possible) they are going to be no higher than 11 feet off the ground (unless you short yoke). This isn't very high, and results in a low angle of incidence, which doesn't allow for much spill control in the first place.

I think you are getting my situation mixed up with the OP's, who hasn't informed us of his grid height. Note that the 12' set up that I describe was eight years ago, when I was in high school. In any event, the choice to go with 36 degree ellipsoidals was actually more of an attempt to reduce lens flare, than to shutter cut any spill in to the opposing audience, though even at a low trim height, the ellipsoidals did do a better job with. Woulda done 50's, but we didn't have any on hand. We were also poor, and thus didn't have time/means to procure any barn doors, tophats, etc :/.

And all lighting units have a defined cone shape to the actual beam

True. Maybe I was a little unclear in my description, but I was referring to the more feathered fresnel beam, which blends more readily against other fresnels. The wider beam angle does also account for this, so I will refer to Lighting Designer Rule # 15: We are both right! .

OP, if you have trouble finding fresnels, try some tough frost. As long as you're willing to accept a reduction in transmission, diffusing the beams should help. Removing the lenses in an ellipsoidal may be an option (adding the wire mesh as described) but I would worry a little about [-]IR[/-] UV exposure. Probably not a problem being that there are DYS Raylight kits out there doing basically the same thing; just something to be aware of.

 

[jglodeklights]

OP, if you have trouble finding fresnels, try some tough frost. As long as you're willing to accept a reduction in transmission, diffusing the beams should help. Removing the lenses in an ellipsoidal may be an option (adding the wire mesh as described) but I would worry a little about IR exposure. Probably not a problem being that there are DYS Raylight kits out there doing basically the same thing; just something to be aware of.

R115 or 116 will create a very diffuse beam, both will actually spread light to 170 degrees or greater. However, the reduction in intensity is actually quite extreme, also.

If you are worried about IR, which isn't as big an issue as UV. If you are concerned, R1995 will help cut out the IR.

 

[Les]

If you are worried about IR, which isn't as big an issue as UV. If you are concerned, R1995 will help cut out the IR.

AH, I meant to say UV. Again, I refer to Rule 15 . Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[jglodeklights]

AH, I meant to say UV. Again, I refer to Rule 15 . Thanks for clearing that up!

UV shouldn't be an issue as the lenses don't actually block much of it. And if you are still worried, there is R3115 to clean up the UV.

 

[NevilleLighting]

So much depends on grid height. I vastly prefer ellipsoidals to help avoid spilling into the audience and putting light directly into their eyes. Take your grid height, subtract 6' for head height and that is your throw. Any grid less than 16' from the deck will probably require a 50 degree ellipse. Fresnels are a good solution. Hopefully you have some barn doors or Blackwrap available for beam control. Also, angle plays an important role in beam control. Your shape sounds rectangular so you may want to make sure you use your angles to your advantage.

 

[Dionysus]

I've designed lights in the round a few times, including twice in a community theatre. I've done it both with a celtic-cross shaped stage and with a square stage. Of course I've also focused lights in the round other times besides my own designs.

The first thing I really have to say is that "in the round, most of the time, not everyone will be 'happy'". This is especially true in a small space.

For Romeo & Juliet and The Scottish Play (both on similar cross-shaped stages fully in the round, and on extreme budget) I used a mix of ERS fixtures (Mostly 360Qs) and Fresnels (65Qs). The main segment stage was 8' wide, about 20' long, with a 'cross' 8' x 16'. Seats were less than 2' from the stage.
For Romeo & Juliet, I two-fered ambers from NW & SE, and two-fered cools from NE & SW, with warm and cool tops in each zone. To properly light the areas, and achieve the lighting effects I wanted, I had to add a few lights from the S. All of the ERS fixtures had R119 for frost, to help blend. The cuts were made so that the lights would come onto the elbows of the audience in the first row (so their laps were lit, but only a few people had a light in the eyes. Those offending lights were used sparingly.).
The trick is to overlap the zones accordingly, remembering that you are mainly concerned with lighting the actor, not the stage floor (however it was lit very well to show off the fantastic paint job).

The real fun was that the balcony was directly in front of the booth windows, so they were completely blacked out. We used a friend's camera to be able to see in the booth.

 

[shiben]

In my current In the round show, I have 8 Source 4 50ºs per system, 4 in each color washing a 24' playing space. They are treated with R119. I also have a ring of 6 fresnels around the space performing general illumination duties. Color is all over, soem in the front light and some in the fresnels and some in top light. Control is not great, but the light is pretty even considering the nature of the space.