More backstage diversity

BillConnerFASTC

Well-Known Member
Another article that highlights this issue. https://www.americantheatre.org/2018/06/19/yes-lighting-design-has-a-diversity-problem/

I have wondered if there isn't something inherent to lighting among the math, visual, and physical aspects that just makes the discipline more appealing to males than females.

Racial diversity or the lack thereof is probably more simply those places where young people are exposed to and develop an interest in lighting simply are not as accessible to people of color, which is discrimination.
 
I have wondered if there isn't something inherent to lighting among the math, visual, and physical aspects that just makes the discipline more appealing to males than females.

Racial diversity or the lack thereof is probably more simply those places where young people are exposed to and develop an interest in lighting simply are not as accessible to people of color, which is discrimination.

I think that question could be easily quantified by looking at who is going to college for lighting design versus who is getting hired. I think that part of the problem is that so many theater companies hire just one or two designers and keep them. That means if we had a high ratio of white male designers, it will be difficult to break in to the industry. It might be easier for those who are not white men to break in through other means, such as architectural or special events as there are different hiring practices.
 
I have wondered if there isn't something inherent to lighting among the math, visual, and physical aspects that just makes the discipline more appealing to males than females.

Sorry, but no. Lighting design is a field pioneered by women-- folks like Jean Rosenthal and Tharon Musser defined what it means to be a lighting designer.

What we have now is a bit of boy's club mentality in the field.
 
What we have now is a bit of boy's club mentality in the field.
perhaps but I am very sure i have not seen it in the institutions ive been associated with. Why are there just so many fewer female applicants to many academic lighting programs?

It does seem to be an interest that begins early. I worked on lighting backstage in 6th grade - ran the autotransformer switchboard. Played with colored lighting and electricity before that. Who in society is discouraging or preventing little girls from playing with lights at that age?
 
Sometimes it isn't who is discouraging them, but where they are encouraged to go. If you read some of Live Design's 30 under 30 interviews, you will find that it sometimes took someone to offer the opportunity to shift the paradigm. One of my co-workers (lighting programmer) was one of those ladies who started to break the mold. She is now in her 50s and had to fight her way into the field. When she went to college in the 80's, being a stagehand outside of wardrobe was mostly unthinkable for women. She was discouraged by her family as well as others in the field. Now she is a beacon of hope to the young ladies who come through as interns.

I am hopeful that my chosen profession in digital media, that we will be better. It looks a bit slanted so far in the meetings that I have had in the Digital Media Commission through USITT (still a lot of old white guys), but I know that isn't necessarily who will be completely dominating the professional world. I have had a few wonderful interns (women and non-white), whom I have kept in touch with, that are making their mark in the field. Being that it is still a fledgling field, and one of the true leaders is Wendall Harrington (at Yale), I have a lot of hope.
 
Yale is not typical, and Ming among others always worked hard and made a concerted effort to recruit and encourage minorities and women in my view. Probably affects my perspective. Still, very few female applicants for lighting design.
 
Agreed that Yale is not typical, they are often considered a leader for a reason. They were one of the first schools to actually offer a projection design (graduate level) course of study and, as I mentioned, was a woman to be at the helm.

As to recruitment in universities, that was kind of my point above. I believe that there is probably a different story when we look at the university setting as compared to the LORT setting (which is a bit limiting, but the subject of the article). I believe that the design field will catch up if hiring practices change (i.e. not having a resident designer). I believe that the women will stand out due to their discipline to math and understanding of visual elements without the preconceptions of needing to adhere to the old ways.

But the women still have to deal with quite a bit of sexism in this field, which will have a lot to do with the results. I know women who have been in lighting that quit due to harassment (either sexual or bias towards physical ability). I know women who decide to go another direction because they have to constantly "prove" themselves. Backstage can be a hostile place outside of the academic setting, and there are a lot of people who don't want to live their lives that way.
 
Sorry, but no. Lighting design is a field pioneered by women-- folks like Jean Rosenthal and Tharon Musser defined what it means to be a lighting designer.

What we have now is a bit of boy's club mentality in the field.

"There exist competent, interested female LDs" is not a rebuttal to "I have wondered if there isn't something inherent to lighting among the math, visual, and physical aspects that just makes the discipline more appealing to males than females."

Now, if you want to dig two layers further down and see if that inclination amongst males vs females comes from early education, fine. But let's keep our arguments lined up on the targets.

I personally think that making that sort of educational opportunity easily available to females will increase their numbers here, sure. But from 5% to 50%? No, my experience of women is from 5% to maybe 15-20%.

But I am young and not well traveled...
 
I think discrimination is wrong but I don't think the lack of the percentage of women in stage lighting design being in proportion to the population at large is evidence of a discrimination, and the article seems to make the small percentage of women the basis for discrimination.

What would be useful is knowing the relative proportion of males and females who wanted to make a career in stage lighting design and never made it. My guess is that segment has even fewer women by proportion.
 
I have wondered if there isn't something inherent to lighting among the math, visual, and physical aspects that just makes the discipline more appealing to males than females.
I may be going "off-target" here, but I do have some opinions that may be of interest.

Yah, no. It's not inherent.
It's been my opinion for quite some time that anyone can do *anything*, if they choose to put in the work.
When I was in theatre school but studying to start an engineering program, I (attempted) to do some math review in my downtime during shows. One thing that surprised me was that every person passing by who noticed my book (every single one of them) went: "Is that a math book? Ug I hate math: there was this one teacher I had in high school..." My guess is that people who are "bad" at math, missed a lesson at one point and since math builds logically, their foundation has been shaky for quite some time. If they would had put in the work, they would have succeeded. I highly suspect that those who internalize "Oh, I'm bad at math" (for whatever reason), are less likely to put in the work. Math is simply a skill.


if we had a high ratio of white male designers, it will be difficult to break in to the industry
Something I learned... at some point, is that people tend to hang out with those who are like themselves. An applicant who is similar (gender, race, socioeconomic, life experience, age...) to the one doing the hiring is probably going to score higher on the like-o-bility meter.


Now she is a beacon of hope to the young ladies who come through as interns.
Yay! Keep rockin' on!


Does film/television figure into this?
I have no connections, but the recent #MeToo movement would suggest so. Sure, actresses/actors may have started it, but a toxic culture will be a toxic culture. I think I've seen that about 50% of films in the silent era were directed by women, but it's around (or less than) 10% now?
 
It's been my opinion for quite some time that anyone can do *anything*, if they choose to put in the work.

I agree, but "can" is different than "desire". I don't question ability only interest. Consider the military. I dont think the same perecentage of females want to be soldiers as males.
 
I have wondered if there isn't something inherent to lighting among the math, visual, and physical aspects that just makes the discipline more appealing to males than females.

I agree, but "can" is different than "desire". I don't question ability only interest. Consider the military. I dont think the same perecentage of females want to be soldiers as males.

Why? If you don't find out why, then you might make the mistake of confusing the effects of bias and discrimination for the kind of natural diversity that a healthy society should value and protect.

I’m not aware of anyone offering evidence of sex-based differences in visual or physical ability or interest that would relate to the kind of work we’re talking about, but the math question has been studied quite a lot. Most research seems to indicate no significant difference between females and males in aptitude or interest, outside of significant social factors. There is one frequently cited outlier study of infants (theoretically un-socialized) and a resulting book from early 2000s, and it has been in my estimation roundly delegitimized for poor design, bias and shallow analysis. Other studies and broader reviews of research have concluded that systematizing traits don’t necessarily even correlate with math achievement, and only marginally with sex, while empathizing does correlate negatively with math achievement and interest by adding anxiety from stereotype threat (social awareness of stereotypes). Brains are tricky, and what seems like a logical link (like systematizing and math) isn't always true.

So what’s left is socialization, and that means we’ve got a decision to make about whether that socialization is a positive part of our cultural identity or not:

Empirically and biologically, evidence I’m aware of points to females as a group being better at empathizing than males as a group, but also points to huge variations within those groups - i.e. time to quit generalizing about women vs men. Generalizing nevertheless, the conclusions of studies measuring sex-based difference in systematizing is that there is zero to marginal difference, and even where there is a difference between individuals’ systematizing abilities, it may have zero bearing on achievement or interest in math. So the only good reason for a smart and informed person to stick with a sex-based (biological) explanation for the pronounced female/male disparity in this area would be if that person were a bigot. Is ignorance or bigotry a positive part of our identity?

In social justice terms, it is again important to go back to broad empirical data. In these sorts of parity issues there is often talk of a “pipeline” problem, and that can enable the perpetuation of disadvantage. It tends to be the case that powerful people (who are usually men) are just looking in the wrong pipe and don’t care to try a different one, but when challenged will throw up their hands and say they simply can't find anyone who doesn't look and think like them. As far as I can tell the pipeline is fine up until women try to ascend within the profession. I’ve had better than half women in both academic programs I’ve taught in (HS and undergrad) and similar when I was a student. At least as much as the men, they’ve been both capable and driven. Individuals’ experiences vary though, like mine versus Bill’s. So look at broader data. I have some bookmarks in a browser somewhere, but you all can go do the work yourselves too. I don’t have all day. The numbers clearly show that women have interest and aptitude roughly on par with men but that opportunities for women fall away as the work gets more lucrative and prestigious. That’s the point central to this article, and I’m surprised that Bill glossed over it en route to the question of interest. Kathy Perkins notes that “It’s gotten a little better, but it’s still pretty bad given that about half of the MFA programs in lighting [comprise] women.” Perhaps that's a casual observation rather than a research-based finding, or perhaps not, but it would be ridiculous to expect her to be off by, what, about 40%? There's more after that. The bottom line has two parts. First, there is a fair amount of evidence that women’s interest and achievement is harmed more than men’s by baseless stereotypes that discourage their participation. Second, qualified women are nevertheless asking to participate roughly on par with qualified men but they aren’t given equal professional opportunities. Does this sound like a positive part of our cultural identity?

It’s a standard conservative position in “the culture wars” that progressives want to suppress benign difference in the name of equality, and that’ll erode the “free minds, free markets, free people” concept of liberty. Let’s be vigilant against that gratuitous homogenization, but also recognize that this type of criticism is a time-tested tool for the maintenance of privilege and disadvantage. It can get pretty despicable pretty quickly if we don’t think and research our way past that.
 
The amount of math it takes to be a theatre lighting designer is HS level. That's not even a consideration.

Physical issues? Carrying a kid around all day is far harder than anything we do in lighting.

Visual issues? Women have better color discrimination then men - not a problem either. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120903221050.htm

We've always had great women LDs - and still do (Paule Constable is one of my faves!) But employment isn't about skills and ability; most employment in this business is word of mouth, so friends get hired over talent. How many female friends do you have? How many male? When was the last time you recommended a woman for a gig?

When I was younger, I was told point blank that lighting was not something women did. I was lucky that my dad taught me about electricity through 4-H projects, but my HS wouldn't even let me in the booth! When I joined the IATSE after I graduated college, my IA local already had women electricians and we did/do everything. That's not the case in many areas. I was amazed to find that in 2014 people were surprised there was such a thing as a woman in lighting - I got asked about it all the time on tour. Yet I was told in one southern city that I was "taking a man's job away" and should be home taking care of my (adult) son. In another city I was asked why I would want to do such a "dirty job with such long hours for low pay." (That was on a First National Broadway tour!)

And even if you are an IA or USA829 member, you are still faced with subtle and overt sexual harassment. It's easier to pick a job where you don't have to deal with that BS.

Frankly, I've been encouraging women to NOT go into theater design. There is an abundance of college graduates already who can't earn a living as a designer, and many of the "jobs" are little more than slave labor. I do encourage them to go into architectural lighting design, video content design, AV design; to become stagehands, install techs, project managers, theatre admins, or work for manufacturers or dealers. This article is about LORT - not the best place to try to earn a living as a designer, especially if you have family to care for.

FWIW, the University of Wisconsin - Madison just graduated a trio of MFA lighting designers who are female. Then again, Ann Archbold was their professor - she knows how hard it is for women in this business.
 
@Kristi R-C Glad you stopped by! You were the first person that popped in my mind when I saw this article and I was about to link you to this thread to get your 2 cents! (We've met though AWTE)

At the high school level, I actually have had an abundance of females take an interest in lighting and sound design. In the past 11 years I have only had one male lighting tech lead, but from what I've heard my school is more of an exception in that I average around 30-40 technicians and they are about 75% female.

Frankly, I've been encouraging women to NOT go into theater design.

I have a policy that I will try to talk you out of it until it becomes clear that you are going to defy me. THEN I will support you. I have a former student that just transferred to UW-Milwaukee for lighting design with the ambition to become an ME some day.

But employment isn't about skills and ability; most employment in this business is word of mouth
It's definitely a word of mouth industry! Since she's been back in the area (two months now) I've been able to send two different jobs her way and she's already gotten other gigs offered to her based on her work.
 
Last edited:
In my own travels, I have found more frequently that a given middle or high school tech theater program is likely to be heavily female or heavily male. 50/50 splits are not common. I would say more often at this level the crews I encounter actually are mostly women.

The reasons why certain people end up on a stage crew vary. Some have that burning desire to be a designer from show they've seen before. Some are trying to do something with their friends. Many are people who auditioned for the show but didn't get in. The other extracurriculars offered or not offered at a given school can also impact one gender more heavily than another. Your students who get involved in sports tend to be less commonly those who want to hang lights or mix sound, but the availability or non-availability of certain gender-specific sports could skew who ends up getting drawn into their school's theater program. Music students are also usually in heavy competition with theater programs too, but are less likely to have an impact on one gender's availability for participation in theater than the other's.

In my mind, high school is the launch point for most people who get into theater. I would say from a 50,000ft perspective that most people in our business started doing it at a young age in high school and college. The number of people who got into it later in life is quite small.

There's certainly a factor to be considered on who is encouraged to take theater on professionally vs just as a hobby. Some regions or individual schools are more likely to present theater as a serious option of career choice but most are not going to encourage further pursuit after graduation.

I have no doubt that there's some degree of harassment and discrimination that takes place and that discourages women from continuing careers in this field, but I don't know that there's any way to quantify the talent loss from that compared to people who never made it into the field professionally after high school or college. I also see a lot of people who graduate college and end up at Starbucks -- for a variety of reasons.

It seems like physicality is a deterrent, by discrimination and self-assumption rather than by reality. I know a handful of 5' tall, 115lb women who can push any box, swing any hammer, or hang any light by virtue of knowing how to throw their weight around effectively, who have professed a frustration with other women and even some men for showing up backstage for the 1st time and assuming they themselves cannot do certain things because they don't think they're strong enough. Guys seem to be more likely to brute force something and to be selected for tasks regardless of whether they've previously demonstrated physical fitness.

The million dollar question is whether this is primarily a hiring issue, a career retention issue, or an early life theater-can-be-your-day-job-if-you-try-hard-enough issue.
 
females as a group being better at empathizing than males as a group

In my experience this seems so. I will always prefer female doctors. Besides empathy, much less likely to have a Good complex (reverse gender discrimination? And for the too serious, :) ).

I'm sure there are exceptions but I'm fairly certain there were no women applicants to Yale for lighting design in the 4 years I was there, and I assisted Warfel on portfolio reviews for two of those. Why? Whose to blame?

There's lots of issues like this I believe are out and out discrimination and societal expectations, but not convinced it is the only cause for so few women in stage lighting.

And yes, I think males are much quicker to solve problems by getting a bigger hammer. Are females equally prone to that logic? Not in my experience.

I wish someone would propose solutions that stand a chance of succeeding.
 
I wish someone would propose solutions that stand a chance of succeeding.

Seems like USITT is the best-positioned industry org to address this at the various levels and corners of the industry it would need to be researched, discussed, and propaganda'd.

I know AEA has been looking at better protecting their members from harassment and retaliation through adding verbiage to their contracts and putting new auditioning, rehearsal, and grievance processes in place, but I don't know that anything is happening in USA, IATSE, or in pre-professional academic environments. OffstageJobs also declared they'll ban posts from employers with employee harassment complaints against them.

Not sure if anyone saw this William Ivey Long article a few weeks back, but that's another side of issues that need to be corrected rather than these kinds of things becoming worst-kept secrets and industry gossip. I've similarly been felt up by a much older man who signed my checks so I can vouch that harassment has many forms.

At the end of the day it's largely a starving artist business with small, tightly knit professional communities where people are beholden to their sources of income. The squeaky wheel gets dropped from the call list and then rent doesn't get paid, or they end up pouring coffee at Starbucks, or they move to Montreal. Most employers and production management staff learned by working their way up and have actually no formal business/people management training which further complicates both the problem and any potential solutions.
 
JAMES!!! Hi! Fancy "seeing" you here! (Are you coming to AWTE? Ripon on the 21st.) www.awte.net to register

Yes, it's a lot better in WI for females in professional tech theater. I call it the "cow principle." Cows don't care about your demographics, economic status, religion, etc., they just want to be milked on time and in Wisconsin, when it's milking time, every able-bodied person goes to the barn to help out so we can all have one of Milwaukee's finest beverages sooner. That attitude flows through the IA here, too.

Wisconsin has a lot of great women in lighting - and more coming up. Please have your student get in touch with me. I'd love to meet her!

Mike Nicoai asks about the unions involvement... the IATSE president has said on several occasions "there is no IATSE without the women of IATSE" yet I frequently find myself being called or emailed by other IA women asking how to deal with harassment in their local or on the job site. Short answer --- we're working on it. But just as with racism, you don't change an ingrained culture overnight. I've been an IA member since 1990 and the amount of crap I've had to deal with ebbs and flows depending on the kind of show, where I am and the social climate. Seems every bigoted jerk is coming out of the woodwork this year.

The solution is to two pronged, Bill Conner: need to change the misogynistic environment on the job and remove the economic barriers to college.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back