Question about tracking vs Cue Only

You seem to be suggesting, Steve, that tracking means the board calculates where dimmers should be based on *where they were when you started to record a cue*, *and records that into the new cue*... ie: it looks at record time, not at play time, based on where previous cues put them.

Since that's moronic on its face*, I have a hard time understanding how a software designer could do that. :) Of course you record only the things the user enters, and calculate tracking only at playback time, backing up on each channel far enough to know where it should be, if you jump manually to a cue in mid-show. ... Right?

Did I misunderstand you, or do I misunderstand the problem domain? (Happens at least once a year...)

[ * as a new design; clearly, as Bill points out below, it's user-compatibility that drives it... ]
 
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Moronic today - possibly - but without understanding the history - you obviously don't get it. Tracking - that I think is more properly called move fade - simply recorded the changes, not every value. First, memory was expensive and it took a lot of time to read and write. Second, Broadway went from piano boards - which are inherently move fade - to computer based in very quick order - but designers still thought in terms of changes (and I'll posit the better ones today may still think about changes rather than a string of presets) so that was all that was recorded.

Historians correct me but I believe that the move fade was generally king in broadway style productions until ETC introduced the Obsession - sometimes referred to as the Concession - because it successfully incorporated a move fade mode.

Classic technician versus designer debate.
 
SteveB said:
If you are recording in a linear fashion - I.E. starting with 1 and progressing thru the show as 2, 3, 4, etc... then tracking works well.

If you have a visiting company for the morning and they have cues on paper, where Cue's 1, 8, 10, 14, 22, & 30 are all the same look, and then 5, 11, 14, 23, 31, etc... are blackouts, etc... it makes sense to build up cue 1 then also record as all the other cues using that look, repeating this method as needed till you have the show quickly in the board.

Tracking can screw you royally if not turn off in this scenario.
Click to expand...
Steve; In your example above, you've listed 14 as both a look and a blackout. Oops!
Once I understood tracking, as in original Strand Palettes, I loved it and never worked any other way. You need to understand the following and know when to use them:
- The difference between level 0 vs. no level.
- Black Outs and blocking Black Outs.
- Cues and blocking cues.
- When to use Q-Only.
- Inhibitive subs can be your friends.
- The golden rule of Strand logic: Changes made in preview are changes recorded. Every change is automatically recorded. When in preview there's no option to record, or 'Are you sure?' If you're in preview you're recording. In what's left of my mind this is how it was in full size 'furniture' Palettes, touring style Pro Palettes and early LP90's. Things may have changed since then but my mind hasn't although I also learned to deal with Light Board M's, MMS (Nodular Memory Systems) Mantrix's, Mantrix 2's, Mantrix 2S's, GSX, LBX, MX24's and MX48's. We've come a long way from the IDMQ (Instant Dimmer Memory Cue) and resistance piano boards.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
I expected it might be.

And yes, as I noted, I can easily see the complexity involved in calculating all the dimmer levels on a jump, and why that was hard when CPUs were slow.

But you didn't actual address my questions, Bill. :)

Well, except the mostly irrelevant personal opinions. :)
 
Unless I'm mistaken, then, the substance of Bill's reply is "because that's how it was always done in the past, and LDs are adapting only slower to newer easier things"?

I'm actually fine with that, "moronic" notwithstanding. :) [ Edited to soften ]
 
Anne Valentino & Sarah Clausen wrote an excellent white paper on the difference between lighting control philosophies - I'd suggest giving it a read as it will clear many misconceptions up.
 

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Jay Ashworth said:
I expected it might be.

And yes, as I noted, I can easily see the complexity involved in calculating all the dimmer levels on a jump, and why that was hard when CPUs were slow.

But you didn't actual address my questions, Bill. :)

Well, except the mostly irrelevant personal opinions. :)
Click to expand...

I did explain tracking and I thought answered why people want it, two of your questions.

Perhaps I didn't answer your question of what cue only means. In Ron's useful terms - it records a level and a "level zero" in the next cue. If not cue only, then it simply tracks as "no level" (change) until some cue records it as some other level. And it's a work around or fix for boards that didn't track, which the industry clearly demanded.

I posted mostly history and background, not opinion, facts which you may consider irrelevant. Saying that your preferred way is "newer easier" is an example of opinion, not fact.

An that it is a "Classic technician versus designer debate." is also a simple fact, proven so once again.

PS: You accuse me of "irrelevant personal opinion" but it would seem that your calling these function "moronic" is really the prime example of irrelevant personal opinion in this thread.
 
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"Records a zero in the next cue" was the critical element I still didn't have, and now do; thanks. That was unobvious from the ETC trainer guy's phrasing too; he sort of handwaved the whole mode as "if you want it you know what it does".

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Jay Ashworth said:
"Records a zero in the next cue" was the critical element I still didn't have, and now do; thanks. That was unobvious from the ETC trainer guy's phrasing too; he sort of handwaved the whole mode as "if you want it you know what it does".

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
"Records a zero in the next cue" is not accurate when modifying cues.
It restores a changed level to its previous level.
If the previous level was zero then it will restore that to zero
If the previous level was 37% that level will be restored to 37% in the cue after (assuming that level had originally tracked into that cue)

Note that "cue only" is modifying two cues not just one.
 
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SteveB said:
Tracking can screw you royally if not turn off in this scenario.
Click to expand...

...unless you remember to force record zero or unchaged values (including non-intensity parameters) - a.k.a. Make Manual on Eos family. RonHubbard pointed it out already:

RonHebbard said:
- The difference between level 0 vs. no level.
Click to expand...

Then again, working with movers like this would be a major PITA.

Why would anyone want "cue-only" on a theatre board?
Click to expand...

It is easier to wrap your head around it - once recorded cue looks always the same no matter what you do in other cues. Makes sense in small venues equipped with only few conventionals and simple lighting design (e.g. only one cue for each scene). It is more likely for lower end consoles to have preset recording concept (aka Q only) and higher end to be tracking consoles. In fact, there is no preset console in high end that I know of.
 
Based on your last comment I assume there is no difference between cue-only and the way that, for example, a Smartfade works. And I had thought that there still was. So I clearly don't quite get it yet.

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Largely, that one is called preset, and one is called cue-only. Are they in fact both the same thing simply with different names?

The implication I have gotten from the ion training videos and the manual suggest that you only is not in fact that the same thing as the preset mode I am accustomed to from the smaller boards.

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I see. Shortly - yes and no.

Ion is a tracking console in nature and putting it in Cue-only mode (or recording a single cue with Cue-only parameter in native tracking mode) does not turn it into a preset console. It simply allows the programmer to get his work done (mostly) in a way he is accustomed to and get the results he does expect.

Rest is terminology problem. I highly suggest reading whitepaper on this topic by Anne Valentino & Sarah Clausen that is posted in this thread, had you not done it already. That being said, manufacturers treat and implement these terms and concepts differently. Users of their products tend to adopt this terminology and find themselves slightly confused when talking to users from other group, often using same words but with (slightly) different meaning.

You refer to SmartFade as Cue-only console, meaning the way it records data is driven by what I refer to as preset (recording) concept, which are the same in this case. Setting Ion in Q-only mode is very similar to preset concept in user experience, however deffinitely not in way it actually stores data.
 
Eos family always stores move instructions, so it is always a tracking console during playback. However, it supports a cue only mode during recording that prevents move instructions from tracking beyond the current cue. Does that help any?

Putting Bobblehead Fred into words:
  • with a move/fade (aka tracking) console, it helps to get your head around the idea that every time you set any parameter in a cue, that parameter will remain set in subsequent cues until it gets an instruction to do something else.
  • with a preset console, every cue is a brand new instruction and every attribute is stored in each and every cue.
Where things get fuzzy is when console manufacturers put in functionality that makes one behave like the other. In fairness, they do it to speed up programming. For instance, on a move/fade console there's the concept of a blocking attribute on cue that is essentially an implicit move instructiion such that if you add a move instruction before the blocking cue, you don't have to remember to move it back. That's why most programmers make blackouts blocking cues. Experienced programmers make them intensity blocking cues and let non-intensity parameters track through (but that's a lesson for another day).

Since you're moving to Ion, I strongly suggest you embrace the move/fade philosophy. It will save you so much time and effort in the long run. Once you get into multiple cue lists, effects, or rigs with lots of moving lights it's really the best way to work.
 
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