Replacing house light lamps

[gafftaper]

A buddy of mine is using 300 watt incandescent type A medium screw base lamps inside reflector cans for his house lights. It looks like they are around 3600 lumens (although a lot of that is lost inside the can). What have you seen lately that is dimmable, warm (prefer 2700 degrees in color temperature but 3k will probably work), and a direct replacement? Appearance at low output is critical as a lot of the time the house lights are left on at 10%-20% during events.

There are lots of threads on this topic, but with the speed that this technology is changing, I thought I would ask for the latest.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I assume this is for LED or Fluorescent? Honestly, nothing that is just a lamp, that is cost effective, dimmable to 10%. Now, if he was buying new fixtures, or going to spring for special small load dimmers, maybe, but just by relamping, no, not yet.

What about using halogen instead of incandescent? 250 Watt | 1000Bulbs.com

 

[gafftaper]

Yeah Greenia, that's kind of what I was thinking too. He could switch to a 150 WATT Halogen PAR that would put out around 2200 lumens. I bet the switch from a type A lamp and reflective can to a PAR would be so significant that he wouldn't notice the lumen drop in output. Or he could go with that 250 WATT PAR and trim the dimmers so they top out at 80%. That would actually increase his output and his lamp life, and lower the electric bill.

Anyone know how to calculate the actual output of a 3000 lumen type A lamp in a reflector can?

 

[josh88]

I can weigh in at the end of march once ours are done. I unfortunately had no input on the choice but we're switching over to led house lights over spring break so I'll have a surprise when I get back to see what they've done.

 

[gafftaper]

I see Phillips has the "Energy Advantage IR PAR 38" series. They've got a 100 Watt lamp that puts out 2200 initial lumens at 2700k. That's pretty slick.

Any ideas on how many lumens are likely being lost inside the cans with his current 300 watt type A lamps?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

A fixture with a reflector and designed for an A lamp or other lamp without an integral reflector is likley to have a socket so high that a par lamp will have a lot of cut off, and if you get an extender, you may find a lot of glare - especially bad considering these are left on at low levels during events.

I don't believe any LED or flourescent lamp will function well at all, as has been stated, with poor low end dimming. (In other words, it just shuts off around 10% and is anything but pleasing.)

 

[gafftaper]

My buddy says the cans are tapered at the back, so they probably will require an extender. However from what I've seen at ground level, they appear to be nearly 12" deep. I doubt a PAR will actually reach out of the can even with an extender in place. Also they are probably 30'-35' above the floor. Clearly going to need to do some experimenting, but I think he should be okay on the glare issues. I'm suggesting he pick up a few of these Halogen options and try them out. Hopefully he can convince the big wigs to go with a 30% or so in energy savings for a few years while we wait for the LED technology to improve to something suitable. I have a lot of hope for things like those LED phosphor hybrid lamps... if they only came in a MUCH larger size.

Hey DELO72, how about taking some of those Phosphor LED's you guys make for the Mole LED lights and building us a PAR 38 with around a 2,500 lumen output we can use for house lights?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I don't have much hope for an led lamp that dims smmotly to out on line mains dimming because the power supply that powers the led needs power to operate. When the mains dimmer gets low the power supply just stops.

 

[chausman]

I don't have much hope for an led lamp that dims smmotly to out on line mains dimming because the power supply that powers the led needs power to operate. When the mains dimmer gets low the power supply just stops.

I've seen some LEDs that do remarkably well dimming. I just wish I knew who makes them.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

LEDs can dim fine but not the retrofit mains dimming ones - at least at the low end. The power supply needs to be constantly powered.

 

[TheaterEd]

While trying to deal with my LED house light fixture problems, the folks at Mainstage Theatrical Supply in Milwaukee told me that they had a screw in LED lamp that was performing very well. I'll be talking to them today or tomorrow about a follow spot issue I'm having so I will see if I can get the name of the lamp. I personally have LED fixtures and can say that the drop off on a fade to black is significant.

 

[derekleffew]

... that they had a screw in LED lamp that was performing very well. ...

While that may well be, I'm in agreement with BillConnerASTC that I don't see how anyone can solve the "dimmer curve at the low end" issue with only two wires from a dimmer, phase control. Perhaps two wires from a PWM dimmer. (I'd guess ETC was working on that, if I were a betting man.)

See also
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/31380-led-house-light-strobe-issues.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...-substitute-75w-halogen-medium-screwbase.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/27817-led-house-lamps.html
and the myriad of other threads on the same/similar topic.
.

 

[DELO72]

I can weigh in at the end of march once ours are done. I unfortunately had no input on the choice but we're switching over to led house lights over spring break so I'll have a surprise when I get back to see what they've done.

Josh- What brand/model are you going with? I'd be interested in knowing what people are choosing for an LED solution, and why (what features, price, etc.)

Cheers,

Mark

 

[TheaterEd]

While that may well be, I'm in agreement with BillConnerASTC that I don't see how anyone can solve the "dimmer curve at the low end" issue with only two wires from a dimmer, phase control.

I believe he said that they were not able to solve the fade to black issue, but that they work well at low levels.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Apparently Altman is advertising their LED Chalice Downlight as "also available as a mains dimmable fixture for those facilities being built without a DMX control system, or for easy retrofit to a current installation for energy savings."

Here's a nice little round-up: http://parlights.com/2012/03/the-led-is-in-the-house/

 

[josh88]

Josh- What brand/model are you going with? I'd be interested in knowing what people are choosing for an LED solution, and why (what features, price, etc.)

Cheers,

Mark

I'll be sure to let you know once I know mark. The facilities manager for campus just hit me with an oh, by the way I put in the work order to switch all these over break. We had talked about it before but apparently kept looking into it. I'm curious too.


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[techieman33]

I'll be sure to let you know once I know mark. The facilities manager for campus just hit me with an oh, by the way I put in the work order to switch all these over break. We had talked about it before but apparently kept looking into it. I'm curious too.


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Don't you love it when they change things and don't consult the person actually using them.

 

[ship]

Don't know of if any help but been buying a bunch of Cree CR6 Ecosmart LED retrofit lamps for one of the boss's lately. I have no idea about them but possibly in not needing as long of a can size, these could work with mounting in the smaller snout they make viable.

Beyond that, there is lots of E-26 to E-26 socket extenders out there and they if the longer types with some work can be modified shorter to a custom length if you have the right taps. Also that 60 degrees is possible in a PAR in beam spread. Flourescents, LED's comperable to 300w on the other hand the challenging thing - this beyond dimming curve. Yes in getting down to 20% intensity, house lights suddenly flicking out... really a problem with a long dim? If the house fixtures are using those lamps and that's what is needed, doubt yet there is a CFL, cold cathode, LED or other option for output that's dimmable available.

Aerotech as a lamp company if you can't find something better might still do or be able to make a 20,000 hour filament lamp 300w or at least still be making 1,500 thru 2,000 hour lamps similar - suspect PS-25 lamps at least for some similar but lower output in exchange for a little less output. Don't know what they make in this wattage but it's a good place to ask. Obviously there will be a little drop in output at that wattage for that many lamp hours though, and would qualify for an extrem hour lamp even if you didn't go halogen or better. Assuming a drop in output some,Osram #18970 100A/HAL/F I frequently find myself using in old school strip lights. Granted these lamps are A-19 and if PS-25 for the 300w lamps.... might need two socket extenders at least (this without checking) to make it work and socket extnders are not cheap.

For the most part, 300w medium screw replacement lamps are not on the horizon for the industry I suspect for this high of a wattage of lamp. It's probably a better idea to lamp what they can for now and plan on replacing them as per IMPACT and in general obsolete. New house lights would be a better angle to plan for than what to replace the still available but becoming harder to get lamps.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Apparently Altman is advertising their LED Chalice Downlight as "also available as a mains dimmable fixture for those facilities being built without a DMX control system, or for easy retrofit to a current installation for energy savings."

Here's a nice little round-up: The LED is in the House! : Parlights Theatrical Lighting & Rigging

Yes - many architectural led fixtures have both mains dimming and 0 to 10 volt and dmx dimming. All we have tested suck on other than dmx. Dimming smmotly all the way out seems fundamental to performing arts.

 

[josh88]

Well now that I'm home and back to work I thought it was time to dig this back up. I finally got a look at the replacements. We only did about 1/3 of the house lights, to see if they would be acceptable. So I actually get to see the new LEDs next to the old ones at the same time. I only ran it through my wall presets and haven't actually turned the board on to play with them, but generally I'm happy. They definitely pop on immediately probably to about 10% while the others slowly warm up from 0. They aren't quite as bright but the whiter color actually makes the house look better imo. We'll see if my initial opinion stays the same after getting to use them for a bit.

Here's what we're using:



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