Sound System For Black Box Theater

[BryanKerr]

Hello Everyone,

Our K-12 school just got access to a black box theater that we used to lease out to another school. Of course, they stripped it of all their gear, so I need to a sound system in there. I need help designing a system given the info below.

The Room
I've attached a sketch of the theater. It's 28' wide by 64' long. The ceiling is about 12' high above the performance and backstage area. The seating area steps up as you go away from the stage toward the booth so that at the back of the theater, the ceiling's about 7.5' high.

Except for the concrete backstage area, the floor is carpeted. We use folding chairs for our seating, and use a combination of modular Intellistage platforms and Wegner Flipforms for our stage.

Uses
The theater is primarily intended for small to medium size play productions such as "The Jungle Book" for K-6, and "Little Shop of Horrors" for High School. Canned backing music will be used for little kid productions (Jungle Book), while other productions (Little Shop) will use simple live instrumentation like keys and drums.

Movies will also be shown in the theater, and live music ("rock band") will be performed there as well. Though I'll use our JBL SRX712s and 718s for the rock performances.

What We Have
24 channels of Shure ULXP4 transmitters and receivers
24 Countryman E6 head mics
Yamaha LS9-32
3 DBX IEQ31 units (6 channels)

Requirements
Headmics - While the theater is small enough to forego amplifying the actors, the fact is that not everyone here projects like a professional actor. So our drama and music directors really want all our actors using the E6 mics. For the little kids productions it's not as important as we all recognize they're too young to use the mics.

Surround - The drama head would like me to do some sound design with "surround" sound effects if possible.

What I Need From You All
So I need help figuring out what speakers I need for the house and where to put them. And I also need some advice about providing some monitoring for the actors (should I fly speaker on Batten 1)? Amp recommendations would also be appreciated.

In the attached sketch, you can see where our electrical battens are, and where I've proposed to place 5 speakers. You'll also notice that the performance area comes out a bit in front of where I proposed to place the speakers. I want to make sure the speakers are far enough upstage so the front of the audience gets adequate coverage, but I'm also worried about feedback into the actors' headmics.

In terms of budget, our school's admin has asked for our "wishlist." I don't want to give them sticker shock though, so if I could keep it in the $5,000-10,000 range (including cables, amps, mounting hardware, etc.), that probably be best.

Also, if we're serious about using 5.1 for the movies as well, I should probably factor in a couple of subs.

In my research, I've come across the AcousticDesign AD-S82, EAW VR61, JBL AC15/16, and EV ZX1 as possible options. Am I on the right track?

Thanks for all your help!

 

[BillESC]

EV's ZXA1 will work within your budget and being active, elliminates the need for amps and processing. Add an EV sub and you'll have your 5.1 system.

 

[museav]

There are a good number of things to consider. You need to step back and look at what you have in terms of conduit, boxes, power, cabling, etc. The underlying foundation or infrastructure upon which the system will be built. With an existing venue those factors may drive many decisions. It may be more important to think about things like having proper power and connectivity at and cabling paths to the stage than about surround sound or effects playback. Don't overlook the basics or the code and other aspects related to a permanent install.

Speaking of permanent install, has anyone verified exiting and exit paths, signage, etc. for the planned room layout? If the stage would always be in place has anyone looked into the use of temporary staging as a permanent stage and aspects such as the possibility of it needing to be handicap accessible? I don't know the history of the space but one potential issue is that any significant changes in use, capacity, configuration, etc. could result in having to make the entire space comply with current building and life safety codes rather than those that existed when it was built or last underwent any previous major changes. This may not be an issue but it is definitely something to confirm before getting too far along in any plans.

How will equipment and installation be procured? Will anything need to go through a bid process?

Have you looked at the room acoustics? Might they affect some decisions for the speaker system? Might it be worth investing in improving the room acoustics?

If this is a permanent install and not a temporary setup then any flown speakers would probably fly from the structure and not the electrics. And unless you are properly qualified and insured you want to factor in having a qualified professional handle any flown speaker installation.

Along the same lines, the system adjustments and tuning can be critical to obtaining the best performance from the system, so should you account for someone to assist with adjusting and tuning the system once it is installed?

You mentioned using some portable JBL SRX boxes for rock shows. How would they integrate with the rest of the audio system? Do you have a plan to address the amplification, cabling, processing, etc. for them? Would you also use all wireless mics for that or do you need a number of mic inputs and monitor sends or tie lines to support that use? What about stage monitors in general and things like tie or speaker lines to the stage?

A mains, surround sound effect and 5.1 surround speaker system along with integration of your existing devices may be a 'wish list' with a $5k to $10k budget. The biggest issue may be that if you don't have the related power and conduit in place you could conceivably spend a good deal just preparing the room for the systems. In addition to that, don't forget items such as cables (loose) and cabling (installed), equipment racks, connectors and adapters, storage, some wired microphones (I would never rely solely on wireless), some handheld and lavaliere microphones, mic stand and so on, those costs can start to add up. And since this is a public assembly space for which audible communication is required, ADA compliance will require an Assistive Listening System be provided with sufficient receivers and neckloops based on the seating capacity (figure maybe $700-$750 or more plus installation for that alone).

I am not trying to scare you with all this but there are many aspects that are critical to the viability and long term success with such projects that are easy to overlook. All of the things mentioned may have already been addressed by appropriate parties but if not then it is probably much better to consider them now rather than later.


A 20'x20' performance area just 3' from a 20'x20' audience area should not require everyone using a microphone or need 24 channels of wireless mics. I recently attended a local community theater production that was in a Black Box probably about as deep but twice as wide as yours and they use no microphones, so how is not teaching the students to perform in that type of situation helping them? And oddly, it would normally be the younger children with weaker voices that would most require microphones.

 

[gafftaper]

First off, I'm not an expert... just a user like you. Museav is our resident theater consultant and I defer to his suggestions on the topic.

The theater I was last working at was a 55'x60' black box. We had a 5.1 setup. We had Zx5's for Left, Right, and Center mains, ZX1's for the rear surrounds, an 18" JBL sub, and QSC amps. The ZX1's are excellent speakers but I think you might be slightly disappointed in them for your theater setup. Don't get me wrong they sound fantastic but they won't put out the thunder that people expect from a movie theater. The ZX5's on the other hand have some serious punch to them, even without a sub. ZX5's with an 18" sub and you have a serious system. Unfortunately, I never tried my system with the ZX1's and Sub only, so I can't tell you how that sounds.

 

[BryanKerr]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far.

All good things to think about.

There are no significant changes in use, capacity, configuration, etc. It was used as a black box theater by our previous tenant, so all the electrical, signage, ADA access, etc. is still in place.

We're a non-profit private school, so no bidding process is necessary. I pick vendors, get quotes, and submit them to our accounting department who make the purchases.

The room actually sounds pretty good. There are no glaring deficiencies, so it makes it difficult to convince non-sound people of need for acoustical treatment.

As for installation, my thinking is to find speakers that I could mount with c-clamps on the battens for the mains. That way I could move them forward closer to the audience if mic feedback is a problem, and I can't convince the play director to move the performance area upstage a bit. I'd probably mount the rear surrounds on the back wall myself since we have a DIY mentality at this school, and we have insurance.

As for the rock integration, I only listed the gear we have that I'd use for play productions. We have a full PA that we use for outdoor events, that along with the SRXs includes plenty of amps (8800W mains, 3150W monitors), mic/speaker cabling, 5 Yamaha SM12Vs, Rane crossover, Radial active and passive DIs, Beta 52, 57s and 58s, SM57s, Rode NT5s, Sennheiser E906s, Beyerdynamic M201TGs, mic stands, etc.

I'd place the amps backstage, and run a snake back to the booth. The amps for the play speakers would stay in the booth.

Using the "house" system for movies is secondary to play productions. So I'll get it sounding great for theater, and do what I can for movies w/out affecting plays.

I'm with you about teaching our kids to learn to project, face the audience, etc. But we are a relatively new and small school, so filling our casts means we have a wide range of abilities. We do our best to emphasize proper technique, and work our tails off to make sure the kids are as successful as possible.

Also, our school's philosophy emphasizes process over product. We want to give them chance to experience being in a production in without making them feel intimidated if they don't yet have confidence in their abilities. If they have a positive experience, we find that they become more passionate and are willing to put in the effort to learn proper technique.

Thanks again.

 

[museav]

The Zx1 or Zx5 (or the ZxA1 and ZxA5 powered versions) might be fine choices but you may want to consider some of the details. For example, the Zx1 is specified as a nominal 90x50 pattern but based on the product data that only applies at around 10,000Hz and through the vocal range the pattern looks to be more like 100x100 or greater, a result of the compact size and associated small horn and that would likely also apply to some degree to many similar products. In fact the Zx1 apparently actually has a wider vertical than horizontal pattern throughout most of the response up to 4kHz or so. In comparison, the Zx5-90 is also a nominal 90x50 pattern but comes much closer to actually achieving that pattern over a wider frequency response, with a vertical pattern that remains below 70 degrees down to 1kHz or so. With some of the speaker locations shown being considered and 24 wireless mics on stage that could be a factor in both covering the entire audience while achieving sufficient gain before feedback on stage. An example of where being a good product does not is important but does not by itself make something the right solution for every application.

The point I was trying to make earlier in terms of the budget is that it is not just about the speaker cost itself but also all the ancillary costs involved in implementing the speaker. A bracket or mount, the cabling to the speaker, any conduit that cabling needs to run in, any labor, connectors and hardware an so on. If you have a budget and a list of known needs to address you might want to prioritize the needs and try to assign some preliminary budget to them. That might avoid additional effort for things like selecting speakers then having to go back and make new selections if you don't have money left after that for something else you need.

For effects and 5.1 reproduction a subwoofer would be nice to have. The challenge in this case may be where to put it so that it is out of the way and not right in someone's ear. Whether it be looking for something that is short, thin, flyable or whatever, where you locate the sub and how you mount it could affect the product selection.

You asked about monitoring for the actors but what monitoring are you envisioning? You probably don't want to feed the microphones back to the stage. We don't know the heights involved, the acoustics of the space, etc. but it looks as though the actors would likely hear a lot of any audio from the house system and it might also be difficult to keep stage monitoring from not affecting what the audience hears. If the monitoring is for dance performances, accompaniment for chorals performances, etc. then that may identify some other considerations.

 

[museav]

There are no significant changes in use, capacity, configuration, etc. It was used as a black box theater by our previous tenant, so all the electrical, signage, ADA access, etc. is still in place.

I actually brought it up as three things stood out for me. One was the 3' spacing between the audience area and the stage as it seems that would have to be an accessible path and would also be an exit path, either or both of which may require a greater clearance. The second was that while the travel distance to the primary exit is not that long, public assembly spaces often require a physically separated secondary exit and your sketch shows only one exit. You may think a door in the 'backstage' area is the exit for that space but it would likely also be the secondary exit for the audience and would need a clear exit path and visible signage for the audience. And finally, there are often interdependent conditions on what determines whether a stage may be considered temporary or permanent, which in turn may affect what is required for code compliance. Temporary construction is sometimes limited to being in place 30 days and that can affect different aspects. For example, local code may allow the temporary staging to be there longer but not allow temporary power to it to remain more than 30 days, however if you install permanent power to the stage so it can be in place longer then the stage may no longer be able to be considered temporary due to the permanent connections to the building.

And just a reminder that you will still have to observe requirements such as available handicap (and companion) seating space, row-to-row seat spacing, etc. even with temporary seating. I recently was reviewing some preliminary plans for a venue that was thinking they'd have handicap seating in the aisles, something that is not allowed anywhere I've worked. There next idea was to put it all up front, but changes in codes often require the seating to be distributed throughout the audience area. This is often more of an issue where you may have seating with different pricing and each tier of seat price may need to be compliant, but in addition to any other requirements on the seating locations the 2010 ADA added requirements relating to spaces using projected or displayed images that requires the handicap seating to be basically in the middle to back of the seating area in order to provide less extreme vertical viewing angles.

As for the rock integration, I only listed the gear we have that I'd use for play productions. We have a full PA that we use for outdoor events, that along with the SRXs includes plenty of amps (8800W mains, 3150W monitors), mic/speaker cabling, 5 Yamaha SM12Vs, Rane crossover, Radial active and passive DIs, Beta 52, 57s and 58s, SM57s, Rode NT5s, Sennheiser E906s, Beyerdynamic M201TGs, mic stands, etc.

I'd place the amps backstage, and run a snake back to the booth. The amps for the play speakers would stay in the booth.

Just make sure that you run temporary power and cabling in an acceptable fashion, for example not creating a trip hazard (you might be better to run up and over or along the wall opposite the entry, as long as there is no secondary exit there). If you will be using any of the 'house' system such as the mixer then you might want to think about how to make any changeover simpler and more reliable.

Another thought, where would the 24 wireless microphone receivers be located? If they are at the stage then you need to think about how they get back to the booth. If they are at the booth then you may want to think about remote antennas.

I'm with you about teaching our kids to learn to project, face the audience, etc. But we are a relatively new and small school, so filling our casts means we have a wide range of abilities. We do our best to emphasize proper technique, and work our tails off to make sure the kids are as successful as possible.

Also, our school's philosophy emphasizes process over product. We want to give them chance to experience being in a production in without making them feel intimidated if they don't yet have confidence in their abilities. If they have a positive experience, we find that they become more passionate and are willing to put in the effort to learn proper technique.

I completely understand that perspective, of course the counter argument is what happens if they don't learn proper technique and then do encounter a situation that expects or requires it? That can also be a rather intimidating and negative experience.

It seems that the same general approach could affect other areas. One example is allowing those with a physical handicap to participate. If someone can't easily get to the booth, would have to be physically lifted by others on and off the stage, can't easily access backstage, etc. then that is not creating a very welcome environment for them. I actually hoped this is one area the Glee phenomena might raise awareness but it doesn't seem to be having the effect I had hoped it would.

 

[themuzicman]

Honestly, if you already have some JBL SRX712's, get a few more...make some wall mounts for them and mount those around to give you some surrounds. They are great little boxes and when you couple them with some QSC amps you get a nice little black box setup!

 

[BryanKerr]

Here are a couple of pics of the space. The first is looking upstage from the back left corner of the theater, and the second is looking from the doors on the left side.

You can see an exit in the back with an exit sign above it, there's also two more separate doors to the left of the backstage area. I just didn't add them in the diagram. Sorry. Also, there's no discrete structural separation between the audience and the performance area, it's just carpeted.

The black tape is our director's original preferred performance area. The first row of chairs is on the ground floor level, right in front of the black tape. I'm trying to convince our director to keep the actors from going beyond the white masking tape, which corresponds to the middle of the second electrical batten in the diagram in my OP.

I suppose if I install wide-pattern LR mains above the white tape, I might be OK in terms of feedback. There might be a bit of hole for the center front-most audience, but it'd be better than what we have right now.

Another thought, where would the 24 wireless microphone receivers be located? If they are at the stage then you need to think about how they get back to the booth. If they are at the booth then you may want to think about remote antennas.

I'll keep the receiver racks back with me next to the booth. We've used them in our rather large chapel with about 125' of distance between them and the transmitters with no transmission issues. So we should be fine without remote antennas.

I completely understand that perspective, of course the counter argument is what happens if they don't learn proper technique and then do encounter a situation that expects or requires it? That can also be a rather intimidating and negative experience.

Sure, we can't protect them from everything. The ones that don't have the passion will likely never put forth the effort, so they will probably never attempt more challenging experiences. For the others, we kindly and gently emphasize and re-iterate proper technique and have had some very surprising talent emerge from kids we otherwise wouldn't have expected to see growth.

It seems that the same general approach could affect other areas. One example is allowing those with a physical handicap to participate. If someone can't easily get to the booth, would have to be physically lifted by others on and off the stage, can't easily access backstage, etc. then that is not creating a very welcome environment for them. I actually hoped this is one area the Glee phenomena might raise awareness but it doesn't seem to be having the effect I had hoped it would.

I agree. I suppose the sentiment by others is there just aren't enough people with disabilities to justify that kind of effort and expense until someone with disabilities enrolls and shows interest. By then, though, it's probably too late.

 

[BryanKerr]

You asked about monitoring for the actors but what monitoring are you envisioning? You probably don't want to feed the microphones back to the stage. We don't know the heights involved, the acoustics of the space, etc. but it looks as though the actors would likely hear a lot of any audio from the house system and it might also be difficult to keep stage monitoring from not affecting what the audience hears. If the monitoring is for dance performances, accompaniment for chorals performances, etc. then that may identify some other considerations.

For monitoring, I don't envision running vox into them, just backing tracks. And yes, I am concerned about bleed into the audience. What I don't know is whether it's better to fly them from the ends of Batten 1 and point them across the performance area, use wedges, or some other way. The problem with our Yamaha SM12Vs is that they fire too much upward so that upstage actors won't hear them well enough. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Use your rock show wedges as your surround speakers, so you don't have to buy twice as many boxes. (I'm not confident of surround in that room, but......)

If you don't trust the kids with the E6s, the MicrophoneMadness units sound good and are inexpensive - request extra stiff ear loops though - the standard ones are limp.

 

[BryanKerr]

Use your rock show wedges as your surround speakers, so you don't have to buy twice as many boxes. (I'm not confident of surround in that room, but......)

The problem with this is I can't "install" the SRXs and Yamaha wedges. I need to use these in other locations about campus, including the field for festivals, etc. Sometimes we get very short notice. I want a reasonable fixed system in the theater that can be "turned on" with minimal setup so as not to impede rehearsals.

 

[josh88]

I figured it was easier to dig this up rather than starting something fresh. I'm starting to look for speakers for our blackbox classroom. The teacher in there wants more than the desktop computer speakers she has been using. She wants to be able to still easily plug a computer or ipod as the main input but wanted the option for future expansion. I don't want to have to worry about amps or anything as I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible since they already have issues with easier stuff.

Opinions on getting a portable PA type set up (as an example, something like this Yamaha STAGEPAS 300 2x160W Portable PA System | Full Compass) for the space that would allow us to also pull it to use somewhere else if needed. The room isn't huge something like 30x40. Wall mounts would be nice but knowing ipod and computer will be the main inputs maybe keeping things on the floor is better. I like the idea of a small mixer to give them the option to throw a hand held mic in there somewhere and I think they can handle a small mixer like in the package above.

Criteria is:
-pretty cheap (id like to stay under 500, but I'm open to ideas over)
-ease of use for someone who doesn't know what they are doing

-preferably powered, wall mountable but still portable, or maybe even something that could serve as a monitor backstage for the main space since we're pretty lacking in that department as well.

ideas?

 

[Footer]

Take a look at Anchor Libertys. In set it and forget it situations, they really can't be beat.

 

[BryanKerr]

If you're setting the bar at something better than desktop computer speakers, then that Yamaha would be more than enough. If you're trying to stay under $500, you might consider the Fender Passport 150 Pro. That will definitely be better than computer speakers, but it wouldn't be loud enough to get a vocalist over a drum kit and guitar amps.

 

[josh88]

Take a look at Anchor Libertys. In set it and forget it situations, they really can't be beat.

Took a look and it certainly looks like a good fit. Price is still a bit too high and we have been functioning alright running things into a mixer so I don't think it needs to be quite so set and forget. She'll figure out how to use any set up after a couple of times, but simple is good. I don't think there is a great answer because they are on that barrier between desktop speakers and moving up to a real speaker and system, but not willing to shell out much or add to the complexity. I'm starting to look at dj sound because they only use it for a poetry night and a comedy show.

Oddly enough I think our sports department has one of the Fender Passports but they use it in the gyms and it doesn't live with me or my spaces.

 

[BillESC]

You might consider a pair of the XSP-8A, 8" active 2-ways.

Built in mic and line inputs, pole mountable and only $ 169.95 each plus shipping.

Better sounding than the Fender Passport or Liberty.

 

[BryanKerr]

Good call, Bill. Then you could throw in something like a Mackie 402, a couple of mic cables, and a couple of TRS-to-XLR-M cables and be good to go.

 

[BillESC]

I'd stay away from Mackie, go with a small Allen & Heath or even Phonic mixer, at least they can be serviced in a reasonable period of time.