Total Newb Needs Help With Church/Worship Lighting

[preludesi88]

Hi,

I volunteer on the tech team at our church. Actually all of us are volunteers and while we are knowledgeable in the area of sound and video, we need some help with lights. A few years back the church had some lighting equipment installed. They never really did much with it other than dimming them. They are "clear" without any gels in them right now. What we'd like to do now is add some colored gels to create more atmosphere for our contemporary service. Basically I'm looking for some ideas of what we can do with our existing equipment, what colors might work well together, etc. We really don't have any budget to buy new stuff.

Our church building is of traditional design. We only have two Sunday services, a traditional service and contemporary service. We were not looking to do much for the traditional service other than keeping some stage lights to brighten the stage a little bit as the traditional audience is not going to be interested in colored light. We would like to do something cool for our contemporary service, but we were not sure where to start -- especially in terms of what colors would go well with the other elements of our building (carpet, walls, etc) or which lights we should place the gels in.

A quick rundown of what we have:

Leprecon LP624 Controller (controls stage and house lights)
2 Leprecon Litescape LWD-2400 Dimmer Panels
About 20 lamps (I believe a mix of Lekos and Pars - see video)

We know this isn't a lot to work with, but if anything, we think we might be able to do a little more than what we're currently doing.

Rather than trying to explain our building with words or photos, I captured a quick video of our sanctuary to give you an idea of how large it is, stage/band location, and equipment type/placement. You can check out the video here - sorry for the shaking [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuIZHxMFCWw[/media]Any suggestions or feedback that you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!!!
Josh

 

[NickJones]

Hi Josh welcome to CB! Be sure to introduce yourself in the new members section!
A few quick questions before we start!
How much natural light gets in and can it be blocked out? They will be waaay more effective in as close to complete darkness as possible.
Is the video stuff live to screen cameras? As different gels can effect the camera quite a bit and give weird effects.
Geling is easy, but you need Gel, Gel Frames & some way to get up there, are the pews (I think that's the right word) movable? Do you have a man lift/elevated work platform to get up there?
Nick

 

[shiben]

One thing you might want to think about is utilizing colors that you could blend and make work for your traditional service as well. For front-light, I would probably say use a warm/cool combination, and then maybe hang some more saturated combination as toplight, which you can then blend to get some various colors (a personal favorite combination for worship services that I use a lot is Red, Blue, and Amber (R26, R80, R21)). You can then utilize a lot of the lights for both services, and not have to loose out on lighting for one or the other. However, it really depends on where you hang positions are.

 

[preludesi88]

Guys, thanks for responding.

Just to answer a couple questions.

Nick - As you can see in the video, we do have a few large windows that are covered with shades. However the shade doesn't block out all the light. Also there are some glass block throughout the sanctuary (towards the ceiling) that let some ambient light in. We normally drop the shades for the contemporary service but raise them for the traditional one -- the older people like the natural sunlight We do have those video projectors way in the back as you can see hanging below the balcony. One of the reasons we have been dimming the lights is to make it easier to see our projector screens. We don't really use cameras too much although the traditional service uses them sometimes. As you may have noticed in the video, we have robotic cams throughout the sanctuary and we have the ability to send that to the video screens. This is why I said that we'd probably want to have a few lights available to make it "brighter" for the traditional service in case they want to run video.

As you can see, the ceiling is pretty high up there. I'd say at least 30 feet...probably more. We do have a platform lift, but it's still a pain because we have to manuver above the pews. We also have some electrical and telehpone contractors that aren't afraid of ladders. Whatever we do, we'd like something that would be the least maintainance just because it takes a team of guys to get the lift out.

As I said before, I don't think we'll be able to add any more lights. We don't have the budget for them. Also there are people in the church who don't like seeing any more equipment hanging from the ceiling than necessary so I don't see them wanting to put up another bar. So for now, I'm trying to limit our ideas to what we have currently. All the lights we have are shown in the video. Again I know this isn't optimal -- just trying to work within the constraints of what we have and what we're allowed to do

Tyler - we're still trying to figure out where we can position our light board so that we're not all stepping on each other up there, lol

Our idea was to take the bank of 8 lights closest to the stage and gel them. Then keep the 4 further back from the stage clear in case we need them for more brightness. We also have the 4 lights pointing down on the stage on either side of the sanctuary. We wern't sure what we might do with these -- perhaps gel two on each side? When you look in the video, you can see where our band sets up -- more to the right side facing the stage.

Thanks again for your help!!!
Josh

 

[Kelite]

To maximize the time spent with the lift, and to avoid changing gels between the lights you have available- color scrollers are worth considering. You could have a full palette of color at your disposal for using during your contemporary service as well as Christmas and Easter services with no need for the lift. Once installed, you have total control from the booth.

The ceiling fans look kinda cool, are they pretty effective at keeping the congregation cool?

 

[gafftaper]

Remember that Gel "burns" or fades the color. If you really want to set it and forget it, it might be worth your money to look into glass dichroic filters which will never fade or change color. They are expensive but in a situation where you don't want to move things around much it could be worth it. Contact your local dealer for pricing. Speaking of which where are you at? Do you have a good relationship with a local dealer to advise you on things like this?

My vote is for colored top/back light and a nice amber wash from the front. Besides the colors suggested don't forget Rosco 39 Skelton Exotic Sangria.

 

[preludesi88]

Remember that Gel "burns" or fades the color. If you really want to set it and forget it, it might be worth your money to look into glass dichroic filters which will never fade or change color. They are expensive but in a situation where you don't want to move things around much it could be worth it. Contact your local dealer for pricing. Speaking of which where are you at? Do you have a good relationship with a local dealer to advise you on things like this?

Yeah those filters sound like a good idea, but I bet they are pricey. I can check with our supplier. We're in the Pittsburgh area and deal with a local place called Pittsburgh Stage. So far they've been very helpful.

Edit: I just spoke with our supplier. He recommended that if we are just going to use the current setup, to put the colored gels into the 4 lights on both sides of the stage that are facing down. He also recommended using gel shield to help extend the life of the gel material.

He said if he was going to put any gel material in the front lights, it would be amber color. He said some people use pink or yellow but he didn't care for them much. He did not recommend putting dark colored gels in those lights for the purposes of adding color.

My only concern with using the 8 down lights is would this create too much of a dark area in the center of the stage, between the two banks of lights. Your thoughts?

 

[BillESC]

Kelite's suggestion of scrollers makes lots of sense considering the location of the fixtures and the labor involved to change color.

I'd approach your desire for color in an entirely different direction however.... UPLIGHTING.

You sould string a half dozen or more LED Par cans across the back wall of the stage and with a simple controller have an almost unlimited pallet of colors and combinations at the push of a button.

 

[preludesi88]

The ceiling fans look kinda cool, are they pretty effective at keeping the congregation cool?

Unfortunately no, our sanctuary does not have A/C

 

[preludesi88]

Guys, I really appreciate all the insights so far...very helpful especially for somebody like me who does not have any clue -- keep them coming!

I'd like to summarize the facts and ideas from all the feedback here and also from talking to our supplier.

1.) Seems like the best approach is to provide color from the top down and not from the front.
2.) Considering point #1, we have 8 lights (4 per each side of the stage) that could be used to provide color. It appears that each side has 2 pars and 2 lekos (please correct if wrong).
3.) If we were to add any gels to the front lights, we should use something like amber to provide a more natural look on the skin tones. Front lights shouldn't be used to provide scene color for our application.
4.) Adding more fixtures/hardware is not an option for our budget as well as aesthetic reasons. I don't think fixtures on the floor would be an option either.
5.) Gels have a limited life span. Gel saver or gel shield could help extend life. Glass dichroic filters could would be more long term but are out of our price range

So with that being said, here are the questions I still have.

1.) Could we create a decent effect using the 8 "down" lights we have mounted above the stage?
2.) Would using the lights as they are situated right now (straight down and located on the sides of the stage) create a huge dark area in the center of the stage?
3.) Could the lights (maybe one or two per side) be pivoted diagonally to point more towards center stage to address question/concern #2?
4.) Of those 8 down lights, how many lamps would be needed to create a decent looking "scene". If I wanted to fit two lamps on each side with red and the other two lamps on each side with blue, would they project enough light to create a red scene and blue scene with only using 4 lamps total? Or would I be better served with putting all the same colored gel in all 8 lights and essentially have one static scene?

Sorry for all the questions but I just wanted to get your take on these possibilities.

Thanks again!

 

[shiben]

Summary point 1 is right on, adding color from the front generally makes things look very dark, so you want to stick with amber (R02, bastard amber is my personal choice if I have to color people). Point 2 seems valid as well. The rest also look valid, although I have to say, Bill has a very good point with the LED uplighitng, and Kelite has a good point about scrollers. If you cant afford them, however, you cant afford them. Maybe petition for them at a later date, if the gels go well, they might let you a little more space on the budget, etc. (My church was a sucker for this, they saw our sound crew raise funds and buy an effects rack, and they bought us a new board to use with it because we were making good use of technology)

As to your questions:
1. Yes you can.
2. Yes
3. Thats what i would do anyhow, to add some dimensionality to the looks. In fact, you might want to have 1 instrument per color per side wash each half of the stage, which will kind of give a toplight and a highside per area, if the lenses are big enough. Really depends on the size of the lens, but thats the general idea. Make an even wash out of 4 instruments, and color it. Repeat with other 4 instruments.
4. It depends. If the instruments have very wide lenses, you might only need 2, but your choice of color would be limited. If they are narrow, you will need more. Depending on your options and circuit capacity, I would almost want to move those 4 PARs that are far back and double hang 2 positions on the side light bars, and basically make 3 color washes (If this does not work, 2 lights each Blue and Red are great options, as it gives you three colors (Red, blue and purple)). I feel like as long as you dont use the most saturated blue you can find, you wont have too many issues using 4 lamps per color.

 

[preludesi88]

Thanks for your reply shiben! I agree that Bill's idea with the uplight is a novel one. Perhaps we could eventually do something like that although we'd have to find somewhere to place the lights. One issue with our sanctuary is that we have to put our gear away when we're done We can't have instruments, cords, or lights out on the stage for the traditional service. My hope overall is that if we can make it look half decent with what we have, we just might convince them to give us a little more money to do more.

Now I wanted to get some clarification on what you said in response to my 3rd question

In fact, you might want to have 1 instrument per color per side wash each half of the stage, which will kind of give a toplight and a highside per area, if the lenses are big enough. Really depends on the size of the lens, but thats the general idea. Make an even wash out of 4 instruments, and color it. Repeat with other 4 instruments.

When you say "wash" half of the stage, how would I go about doing this in my scenario? Would I have to point two of the instruments (one of each color) on each side at a diagonal angle towards the center? One concern that I had with our setup is the placement of the video project screens. We have those big video projectors at the back of the sanctuary, and my worry is that the light beam from those might interfere with my down lights or vice versa. My hope was that the the light bars were far enough off the stage to not interfere much with the screens themselves but the project light still concerns me. Thoughts?

Also in regard to your response to question 4:

Depending on your options and circuit capacity, I would almost want to move those 4 PARs that are far back and double hang 2 positions on the side light bars, and basically make 3 color washes (If this does not work, 2 lights each Blue and Red are great options, as it gives you three colors (Red, blue and purple)). I feel like as long as you dont use the most saturated blue you can find, you wont have too many issues using 4 lamps per color.

When you say take the 4 PARs and double hang them on the side light bars, are you talking about the light bars at the front facing the stage? I thought the idea would not to face colored light at the stage from the position? If that's what you meant, I don't think we have the circuitry anyway so we're probably limited to leaving the 8 instruments in their current positions. As far as using more than one color, that would be just an added bonus for us. I'd be quite satisfied if we were able to come up with one decent looking scene considering the limited setup we had. I like the Rosco 39 Skelton Exotic Sangria that gafftaper suggested and was thinking of using something like that in all 8 lights. Would this be a bad idea?

 

[coldnorth57]

I am with Kieth as a user of Apllo scroller i think they a great choice and then you can change the moods (ighting) very easy and you only have to go up to the light to change bulbs

 

[shiben]

For the first question about my reply, I realized that I was very unclear with that one. Basically, I recommend you make a stage wash from each side with 2 lamps per color, and focus them so as to avoid a dark spot. As for the projection screens, youll really need to try it. At my former job, our projector was powerful enough to power through any excess light that bounced off the deck or leaked from a shutter cut onto the screen. For your situation, youll have to see how powerful your projectors are in relation to how much light hits the screens from your instruments. With clever focusing, you probably could avoid a lot of the splash.

For the next question, I was actually offering that, if you have the capacity, you might consider moving some lights so that you have 6 in each side position, just to give more variety to the colored light. However, if this isnt possible, then its not a huge deal. I would not gel all 8 in R39, even though it is an awesome color. Unless you get no lumens on stage, you wont need all the lights the same color. I would guess that youll want to experiment for a while some saturday morning or monday evening or whenever your space is free, just to figure out how many lamps per color you need.

Also, keep in mind, Gel is cheap (relatively speaking, at around 6 bucks a sheet, its less expensive than other stuff, like say, a seachanger), so if you pop in a color and decide that you dont like it, you can always grab another sheet and drop it in.

On a slightly different note, are there already gels in the instruments? It looks like most of the instruments have either warm or cool gels in them (color isnt that awesome tho, so it could be anything). Is it some sort of color correction for the cameras? If it is, you might want to take a look at how youll be affecting the video. Colors do not always play very well with the camera.

 

[preludesi88]

For the first question about my reply, I realized that I was very unclear with that one. Basically, I recommend you make a stage wash from each side with 2 lamps per color, and focus them so as to avoid a dark spot. As for the projection screens, youll really need to try it. At my former job, our projector was powerful enough to power through any excess light that bounced off the deck or leaked from a shutter cut onto the screen. For your situation, youll have to see how powerful your projectors are in relation to how much light hits the screens from your instruments. With clever focusing, you probably could avoid a lot of the splash.

For the next question, I was actually offering that, if you have the capacity, you might consider moving some lights so that you have 6 in each side position, just to give more variety to the colored light. However, if this isnt possible, then its not a huge deal. I would not gel all 8 in R39, even though it is an awesome color. Unless you get no lumens on stage, you wont need all the lights the same color. I would guess that youll want to experiment for a while some saturday morning or monday evening or whenever your space is free, just to figure out how many lamps per color you need.

Also, keep in mind, Gel is cheap (relatively speaking, at around 6 bucks a sheet, its less expensive than other stuff, like say, a seachanger), so if you pop in a color and decide that you dont like it, you can always grab another sheet and drop it in.

On a slightly different note, are there already gels in the instruments? It looks like most of the instruments have either warm or cool gels in them (color isnt that awesome tho, so it could be anything). Is it some sort of color correction for the cameras? If it is, you might want to take a look at how youll be affecting the video. Colors do not always play very well with the camera.

The instruments may have some gels in them although not for any particular reason. We don't use video for our contemporary service and since we'd be using the down lights, we probably won't have to turn those on at all for the traditional service.

What's a good 2nd color that would compliment the R39? My thinking with using all 8 with R39 goes back to the point you made earlier. I wasn't sure that I'd be able to get a broad enough beam to light the entire stage, with just two lights per side (assuming I use two colors instead of one). Shouldn't I especially be concerned about those Lekos? I'd assume they'd want to throw a narrow beam where the PARs will throw a more broad beam depending on the lens?

You're right that gel is cheap. Our only problem is it's a big pain to change them. I wouldn't mind these other solutions such as scrollers or glass filters but they are not going to allocate money for that -- at least not yet, so gels it will be for now.

 

[Kelite]

You're right that gel is cheap. Our only problem is it's a big pain to change them. I wouldn't mind these other solutions such as scrollers or glass filters but they are not going to allocate money for that -- at least not yet, so gels it will be for now.

Great question, and with a simple answer-



We all know the Control Booth is a great place to ask questions and get a variety of answers, tips, and great resource leads. This suggestion of the Gel Miser isn't a sales pitch but rather the reason we developed the unit in the first place. Hard to reach positions that require gel benefit from a means to cool the gel. I'm just sayin'

 

[preludesi88]

Great question, and with a simple answer-



We all know the Control Booth is a great place to ask questions and get a variety of answers, tips, and great resource leads. This suggestion of the Gel Miser isn't a sales pitch but rather the reason we developed the unit in the first place. Hard to reach positions that require gel benefit from a means to cool the gel. I'm just sayin'

Keylite, I like the idea of your gel miser product. I'm just not sure that we have 120v power up there for it. How much longer lifespan does it get out of a gel in comparision to your gel shield solution? Thanks!

 

[Kelite]

How much longer lifespan does it get out of a gel in comparision to your gel shield solution? Thanks!

Good question-

At last year's LDI show in Vegas, we projected a very dark blue- Cowboys & Indigo AP3800 with 1.1% light transmission from set-up to strike from two identical fixtures. These fixtures started with fresh gel at the beginning of the show and were focused upon the floor of the booth from their truss positions. One fixture used the Gel Miser, one fixture was naked (get them kids to bed Ma, it's party time!). The difference in color was noticable by show's end (40 hours+) and jived with the testing prior to Gel Miser release.
The average increase in gel life is 7x life expectancy with Apollo Gel Shield alone. Teamed with the integral fan, life expectancy soars even further.

You may contact your local theater supply dealer for a free Gel Miser demo to see if this solution is viable within your space.

 

[preludesi88]

Guys, again thanks for all the help.

OK, I think I have established that the 8 lights in the top/down position will be used for color wash.

A few more questions. Considering that I have 12 Lekos, 8 hanging from the bar closest to stage and 4 on the bar further away, would it make sense to possibly use maybe two of those instruments for wash lighting? If so which lights should be used? I know that this goes against the coventional thought of using front lights for visability and not washes. My concern is with limited number of back/top fixtures and their placements, we still may need more color especially towards the center. We can afford to sacrifice a few front lights if you think it's beneficial.

Also besides amber, what colors are good for the front visible lights? I was thinking a light pink or light blue but how do these look when dimmed down.