What should we upgrade?

[Walt Michael]

Hello! I'm looking for some advice... we have an auditorium with very basic lighting (some old 2k's, a few source 4's and a bunch of PAR cans.). The system is somewhat out of date, and we just found out that we have about an $8000 budget for new lighting. We were thinking some sort of LED wash for the stage and new CYC lights (our old ones are scoop fixtures that have gels in them). Any suggestions as to what fixtures would fit that budget and be good enough for a decently sized auditorium? A little flexibility in price is always possible! Thanks for any advice in advance!

 

[josh88]

$8,000 wont get you very far in the world of LED's. What board do you have to run everything? Take a look at the gafftaper method

http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/?title=Collaborative-Articles:Gafftaper-Method
http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/?title=Gafftaper-Method

 

[David Ashton]

I would buy a set of used cyc lights as a priority, cheap LEDs won't cut it and tend to be noisy and you can't afford good ones, the rest of the decision rests on common shows your venue has.

 

[gafftaper]

What do you have for a light board? Upgrades in lighting are a real hassle (and sometimes nearly impossible) if you don't have a newer board to control them.

How many dimmers do you have? What kind?

Do you have DMX outputs distributed around the theater allowing you to plug in LED's and other DMX toys or do you have to create your own distribution with this money?

What are the most common uses of the facility?

Is there a chance of getting a small pot of money in the near future or better yet on a regular basis so you can create a plan to upgrade the whole system or iis this an extremely rare event?

What is the condition of your curtains? Shop tools? Sound system? Rigging ropes?

Where are you at in this great big world? Sometimes we can help people find someone to give them in person advice.

Post some pictures of the theater, backstage, dimmer rack, etc and we can give you even better advice.

 

[Walt Michael]

Wow! What a quick response! You guys are awesome! The reason for getting some LED's is not so much for the effect, but rather the fact that we dont need to change bulbs as often. I run the school auditiroium, and we often rent it out to churches and other groups on weekends etc. We arent there while they are, so they get VERY basic control of lights (more less on/off). Our lights are so out of date that they are starting to cost more in bulb changes than they're worth. Our Stage Crew would use the LED's to their full potential, but that's just a bonus. We have 3 12 channel dimmers which are a little old, but still work perfectly. Running DMX is as easy as 1-2-3, as we have a wonderful alcove. There is already some inputs/outputs spaced out around the auditorium. Our Sound System is not really in need of updating, because it is a lot more modern than the lighting system.

I'll post some photos of our control booth and backstage later on today to give you a better idea of what we have. I have been informed that some of the rentals are willing to pitch in and up our budget to around 14-16000. If we wanted to upgrade the lights to have a general stage wash available for rentals with LED fixtures, yet be able to use more of the RGB and strobe functions for ourselves, what would you suggest? Looking for more advice on the fixture itself than the installation. Or do you think that it would be more economical/wiser to get some new fresnels/other lights and only a few LED's for effects?

 

[josh88]

S4's and pars aren't really out of date, S4 is still pretty standard and a parcan is a parcan, they haven't really changed much over the decades. The problem with such a small sum of money is any LED you buy won't be able to compete with most of the lights you already have and the quality will put you in the dj realm of LED's.

You can pick up new S4's for $200 if you find the right sale, so you'll get a lot more fixtures for your money if you stay with incandescent. I'm not sure what you mean by alcove, but you may not be able to just run new cabling through there. Keep in mind is that LED fixtures will need undimmed power from somewhere. So that's another issue to consider.

 

[Walt Michael]

We have some old 2K Fresnel fixtures that use CYX Blubs. The bulbs are costing about $50/piece right now. Our S4's and Par cans aren't the ones that are out of date so much as the 2K's and a couple other old fixtures. I just had a chat with the staff sponsor in charge, and he says our budget is now up to $10000 without the rental's money. I agree that the LED's might not be the wisest choice now. Source 4's and some more fresnel's that are more modern are definitely an option! I also mentioned to our staff sponsor that getting some things like GOBOs and color changers would be cool, and far more inexpensive. He agreed 100%. One other problem that we have is the Scoop fixtures at the back of the stage. If we spend about $5000 on lights and accessories, then we would like to get rid of the scoops and replace them with actual CYC lights. What would you recommend? The budget would range anywhere from $4-7k. Less would be even better so we could get more other things! Currently we have 3 sets of R-G-B scoops, to total 9 scoops.

I'll upload some pictures of the auditorium in a few minutes!

Also, by "alcove" I mean the area above the auditorium. It's a catwalk basically.

 

[sk8rsdad]

It's hard to get specific about cyc lights without knowing the dimension of your cyc and the relative distances of your lighting battens. That said, Altman EC-1 cyc lights are fairly inexpensive as long as you aren't responsible for the electricity bills.

I know where to find a set of 4 3-cell units used but I suspect shipping would be an issue assuming you don't live in Ontario. PM for details.

 

[Walt Michael]

The photos are of the control booth (don't mind that it's a bit messy), the stage, and our current CYC (if you can call them that) scoop lights. Hopefully that gives you a better idea of what we're working with!

 

[Walt Michael]

It's hard to get specific about cyc lights without knowing the dimension of your cyc and the relative distances of your lighting battens. That said, Altman EC-1 cyc lights are fairly inexpensive as long as you aren't responsible for the electricity bills.

I know where to find a set of 4 3-cell units used but I suspect shipping would be an issue assuming you don't live in Ontario. PM for details.

I do live in Ontario actually! Did you see the new pics? I can take measurements in a little while if you like!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The unfortunate fact is that buying lamps is the best use of the $8000. You won't be able to buy enough LED units to make a difference in your lamp replacement. Sorry.

 

[Zel]

Wow, you must be changing A LOT of light bulbs to go though hundreds of dollars in bulbs per fixture every year :-\, seriously?!? In reality it sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself to go LED, which may end up being a big mistake; or as I like to say “A career limiting move”.
LED’s take more than one channel to operate, unlike dimmers. Some could take 8~9, most take 5~7 unless you run in 3 channel mode. It’s possible your school purchased a turn key system with 36 lights and a 36 channel board in which case you’re out of luck. And trying to run them on a board not designed for intelligent light is a nightmare. An ION lighting board, nicely dressed, can be had for under 12K (just shot your wad there) where as a Cognito goes for under 3K but doesn’t lend itself to a teaching environment.
I would lean to upgrading your conventional lights to S4’s and see how much you have after that. Next would be infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure! Find out what do you need to take your system beyond the next step as well as what your limitations are (power, distribution, network?). Take your time and educate yourself. Remember that limitations are your best ally in design/upgrade. Once you know where the walls of your sandbox are you know where you can play. Your budget is going to limit you to used gear, either locally or over the web, or DJ quality lighting (Chauvet DJ, American DJ).
So take a break, step away from the LED’s and look around first. You’ll be much happier in the long run.

 

[Zel]

I just saw your picks. Intelligent lights on a standard (Preset) board…NIGHTMARE!

 

[gafftapegreenia]

CYX lamps cost $50 in Canada? Ouch.

 

[techieman33]

S4's and pars aren't really out of date, S4 is still pretty standard and a parcan is a parcan, they haven't really changed much over the decades. The problem with such a small sum of money is any LED you buy won't be able to compete with most of the lights you already have and the quality will put you in the dj realm of LED's.

You can pick up new S4's for $200 if you find the right sale, so you'll get a lot more fixtures for your money if you stay with incandescent. I'm not sure what you mean by alcove, but you may not be able to just run new cabling through there. Keep in mind is that LED fixtures will need undimmed power from somewhere. So that's another issue to consider.

I want to know where your shopping. I've never seen new source 4's for anywhere close to $200. That's source four jr territory. I disagree with you about buying LED's. Yeah they can't go out and buy seladors, but there are still a lot of options on the table. As long as the stage isn't huge they should be able to buy enough mid range fixtures to give them a nice wash. As far as specific fixtures I would call your local dealers and see what they are selling, and have them come out and give you a demo. That will be the best way for your to figure out what will work and what won't. I would try to stay away from RGB, and get fixtures with at least amber or white in them, preferably both.

 

[Zel]

I want to know where your shopping. I've never seen new source 4's for anywhere close to $200. That's source four jr territory. I disagree with you about buying LED's. Yeah they can't go out and buy seladors, but there are still a lot of options on the table. As long as the stage isn't huge they should be able to buy enough mid range fixtures to give them a nice wash. As far as specific fixtures I would call your local dealers and see what they are selling, and have them come out and give you a demo. That will be the best way for your to figure out what will work and what won't. I would try to stay away from RGB, and get fixtures with at least amber or white in them, preferably both.

http://www.gearsource.com/catalog/stockitem/etc-source-four-parnel

 

[Walt Michael]

Wow, you must be changing A LOT of light bulbs to go though hundreds of dollars in bulbs per fixture every year :-\, seriously?!? In reality it sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself to go LED, which may end up being a big mistake; or as I like to say “A career limiting move”.
LED’s take more than one channel to operate, unlike dimmers. Some could take 8~9, most take 5~7 unless you run in 3 channel mode. It’s possible your school purchased a turn key system with 36 lights and a 36 channel board in which case you’re out of luck. And trying to run them on a board not designed for intelligent light is a nightmare. An ION lighting board, nicely dressed, can be had for under 12K (just shot your wad there) where as a Cognito goes for under 3K but doesn’t lend itself to a teaching environment.
I would lean to upgrading your conventional lights to S4’s and see how much you have after that. Next would be infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure! Find out what do you need to take your system beyond the next step as well as what your limitations are (power, distribution, network?). Take your time and educate yourself. Remember that limitations are your best ally in design/upgrade. Once you know where the walls of your sandbox are you know where you can play. Your budget is going to limit you to used gear, either locally or over the web, or DJ quality lighting (Chauvet DJ, American DJ).
So take a break, step away from the LED’s and look around first. You’ll be much happier in the long run.

I definitely agree with not going LED now... getting rid of the old, outdated fixtures and getting newer ones that have more inexpensive bulbs seems like a much better idea. We're not going through hundreds of dollars in bulbs per fixture per year, but it definitely adds up. The older fixtures are up to about a hundred a year. We have a 48 channel board with 36 channels being used... if we were to go LED, we'd definitely need to upgrade the board. "Once you know where the walls of your sandbox are you know where you can play." - What a great quote! Definitely one I'll share with the crew! Thanks so much for the advice!

 

[Walt Michael]

This is our current supplier... http://www.jfrost.com/ ... Somewhat expensive, but they do a good job and are approved by the school board. They have a few different incandescent fixtures that I think we'll end up going with. Of the 36 channels we "use", we have about 4 that aren't currently in use. They have outlets above the stage, so we'll definitely expand there. What about CYC fixtures? Altman EC-1 seems like a good choice? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/392487-REG/Altman_EC_1_300_2KW_EC_1_Econocyc_Borderlight.html - $165 each x 9 for a decent CYC? R-G-B in 3 groups?

 

[Zel]

This is our current supplier... http://www.jfrost.com/ ... Somewhat expensive, but they do a good job and are approved by the school board. They have a few different incandescent fixtures that I think we'll end up going with. Of the 36 channels we "use", we have about 4 that aren't currently in use. They have outlets above the stage, so we'll definitely expand there. What about CYC fixtures? Altman EC-1 seems like a good choice? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/392487-REG/Altman_EC_1_300_2KW_EC_1_Econocyc_Borderlight.html - $165 each x 9 for a decent CYC? R-G-B in 3 groups?

I don’t know if you got my private conversation, and while I’m not sure if posting vendors is OK here but I’ll shoot you toward SEAL. Good people, great prices and they will work with you. http://www.seal-fla.com/sealdev/seal/Orlando%2BOffice

 

[sk8rsdad]

Contact Christie Lites or PRG Canada for more competitive quotes on lamps.

Before you start ordering gear you should take stock of the type of shows you do and the fixtures you wish you had available to do them. Can you do anything other than a full stage white wash with your current rig?

It might mean renovating your cyc lighting. It might mean purchasing follow spots or some sort or ERS or swapping your 2K fresnels for 2 or more times as many smaller fresnels. If you are short on power then it might mean you have new (to you) fixtures but no way to use them so maybe you should look at adding dimming and control. LED avoids spending money on dimming but probably means upgrading your console.

After you conduct a full inventory of all your existing fixtures, the dimming system and it's capacity, and the circuits on stage you can start to look at adding new fixtures knowing the hard limit on your existing dimming and cabling. Once you hit that hard limit it can get expensive to move beyond it.