Are Source Fours over priced?

[SteveB]

i think you can buy two selecon pacfics for the price of one s4

Not in the US.

BMI Lighting lists a Selecon at around $440 ea. in any of the 20 thru 50 lens units, where as an S4 is around $290 WITH LAMP.

This is pretty much the case at any US supplier - in terms of pricing differences and is most likely the major reason ETC is the better selling unit. Note that I've never tried a Selecon, but respect the assorted opinions of others and have no trouble believing they are great units, just out of my price range.

SB

 

[SerraAva]

Just a quick note gaff, S4 MCM Pars can't take 750w lamps as well as S4 Jrs. Well, they can, but they aren't rated for it.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

It's just hard getting designers to move past PARs, Fresnels, and ERS instruments and try something new.

Seems many designers don't even use many Fresnels any more.

On the other hand, there are people like me who want/like to use Beam Projectors, P/C's, RGB X-rays, clip lights and whatever else I can get my hands on. There are situations where an all ETC rig makes things convenient and might be necessary based on a budget, but there are also times when one is able to use exactly what they want. I'm sure there are designers out there who would specify Shakespeare's, SL's, Source 4's and Selecons all in the same rig.

I have no problem with the Shakespeare, I've used them many times. I've never tried a Strand SL, and I'm itching to get my hands on some Selecons.

Now, for a truly nasty imination, take a look at L&E's CORONA Pars.

http://www.le-us.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/corona.pdf

 

[gafftaper]

Just a quick note gaff, S4 MCM Pars can't take 750w lamps as well as S4 Jrs. Well, they can, but they aren't rated for it.

True.

...and thanks to Ship for not sinking my whole premise!

 

[len]

There is also the issue of what you do with them. If I were in a standalone venue, and I never needed more fixtures, or never rented out my equipment to others, then I would go with a product that was the most logical (best product for the dollar). But if I were renting out, or rent from other vendors, I would also take into consideration what they had. Reason being that if I wanted to rent to them, or from them, I'd want everything to match, and not look like it was thrown together at the last minute. Around Chicago, that mostly means ETC conventionals.

 

[SteveB]

Around Chicago, that mostly means
ETC conventionals.

And pretty much every other shop in the US. Thus the S4 logically becomes the *best* choice, even if Selecon's are superior in some aspects.

Not the first time this has happened and as has been commented on in other topics about lighting history, the huge majority of lighting rental shops in the USA used for a few decades, the Altman 360Q ellipsoidal (and Altman Fresnels, striplights, etc...), when superior - but pricier fixtures were available from Strand and Colortran.

SB

 

[PhantomD]

All lighting is overpriced.

 

[Lightingguy32]

My personal opinion about source fours is that if you buy them, do your researdch about which company has the lowest cost on them and has low shipping costs/fast delivery time (depending on where your location is in relation to theirs). I have seen prices all over the board from 269 dollars to 310 dollars for the standard 19° to 50° fixtures. Production advantage has the best price on Source Fours right now but I do not know if some place in your area has a better price.

 

[icewolf08]

If you are planning to buy a lot of instruments, you will fare much better if you put your order out to bid. When you send out bid requests, and companies know that they will be competing for your business you will win. It has been my experience on large orders that some companies will cut their price so low that it makes you wonder how they make money. If you are just buying a small quantity of units then it may not matter, but if you try, you can often find deals.

 

[len]

If you are planning to buy a lot of instruments, you will fare much better if you put your order out to bid. When you send out bid requests, and companies know that they will be competing for your business you will win. It has been my experience on large orders that some companies will cut their price so low that it makes you wonder how they make money. If you are just buying a small quantity of units then it may not matter, but if you try, you can often find deals.

Agreed. And this may be a requirement if you're buying for a school or other government entity.

 

[Charc]

However, there is a lot to be said for buying from your local dealer / theatre supply shop. Developing a relationship with them can be critical. There are times when you need things now for a show tonight, and if you've established yourself with your local company, you're much more likely to get accommodations.

 

[SerraAva]

I agree charcoaldabs. It happens more often then I would like that I have something go down and need a replacement either that night or the next morning. Having contacts with all the local shops helps in a big way. I always try to by from local shops first, so anything I get a quote on, I call it into the local shops to see if they can match or beat the price. Some times they do, some times they don't. However, at least they know that I am trying to bring business there way no matter what. Since they know this, they are more willing to help me out of jams or try and be the cheapest always.

 

[icewolf08]

I was in no way suggesting that you don't give business to the local shops, you need to, or they will disappear. The bid process, as I said, is really only effective on larger orders. Dealers might give you a quote if you are buying 2 units, but no one will bid over an order of two units.

I always deal with one of my local guys for things like consumables and Apollo gear, as they always seem to beat the price of everyone else. The other local guys aren't to bright, but I won't say who they are. But, by the same token, if I need to say buy lamps for my follow spots or moving lights, I just don't have the budget to buy them from my local guys. I would love to throw them the business, but when it costs over $50 more than some of the bigger companies it's too expensive. But I am in the local shop at least once a week, we send them tix to the shows, and keep up a good relationship, and we both benefit.

 

[Ford]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is Color Temperature. When you're mixing Lamps because of different fixtures, you can end up with very different color temps. S-4s look brighter because they have a higher color temp (a blu-ish tint). When we use them in a rig of Strand ERSs, we need to replace a whole system, otherwise it is very obvious which instruments are S-4s, and which are not. We're looking at replacing the rest of our ERS inventory (about 250 units of various focal length) with Source-4s. I wouldn't consider purchasing any other units. As to Pars...It's easy to say that S-4s can be cheaper, but honestly...I don't use very many Narrow, or VNSPs.

Would I prefer all S-4 Pars? Heck yes...

Realistically, with my limited budget, will I buy 10 (which won't match my current inventory) instead of 24 "El-Cheap-o" brand par 64's with a single lamp? Probably not.

As to the Parnell...I'm just waiting for a designer to spec. 'em

-Ford

 

[SerraAva]

Source Fours don't have a bluish hint to them at all color temp wise. Most Par 64s are 1000w with a temperature of 3200k with 800 hour lamp life. Thats the same temperature as a Source Four with 300 hour lamp life. The 2000 hour HPLs have a temperature of 3050k. A Colortran is 1000w, 3200k, and 300 hours. Altman 360q's are 575w, 3200k or 3050k, and 400 and 1500 hours respectively. Shakesphere's are the same. Modern Strands, don't know how old yours are, use a GLC 575w or 600w with a temperature of 3200k and lamp life of 400 hours.

With those color temperatures, it makes more of an amber white light. About 4500k is the most pure white light and 'looks' the brightest. It starts turning blue at about 5000k. Anyway, point is that 3200k is like the unwritten standard when it comes to theatre. S4s aren't brighter because of color temperature, they are brighter thanks to better optics and a more efficient lamp. Check your lamps and make sure you aren't using extended life vs standard, that may be your problem.

 

[Hughesie]

ok, selecon is a great company, mostly because they are based in the land of sheep (New Zealand ) they are a great company that has a focus on grass roots theatre, their products aren't all that cheap (cheaper than s4's though) but they are good quality and we have them in our theatre (infact im looking at one right now im FOH and we have 9 of 14-35 up) we have never had a problem with them i would recommend them completely just as i would suggest selecon.

and no just because they sent me a shirt a pen and a gel frame photo frame for free doesn't mean im bias

 

[STEVETERRY]

Just as the title says, do you think Source Fours are over priced? I was talking to a friend of mine a couple days ago and mentioned me picking up some more Source Fours, and he said don't, they are overpriced. My response was there isn't anything all that better out there, they last forever, etc.
So the second part of this question is, is there anything better out there? I did a small gig on Tuesday night, just some up lighting, and lighting for a tent so people could see under it. I also mentioned to him about picking up some more Source Fours, to which his response was, we could have did this with Opti Pars http://www.elationlighting.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1148&cat=Stage Lighting
I didn't bother responding to this, because I didn't want to dig myself a hole. However, if he ever did, I would strongly protest. So, I ask the vets, what are your thoughts so I am better armed for when these questions are thrown my way again.

Now, we have an important new tool to answer the question "How Good is that Fixture?".

Last week the ESTA E1.35-2007 standard, "Standard for Lens Quality Measurements for Pattern Projecting Luminaires Intended for Entertainment Use" was approved as an ANSI standard. Now, we have a way to objectively measure "How good is the imaging of that fixture?"

I encourage all users to suggest (demand?) that fixture manufacturers under consideration for purchase report performance to this important new standard.


ST

 

[gafftaper]

ok, selecon is a great company... their products aren't all that cheap (cheaper than s4's though) but they are good quality and we have them in our theatre

Note: He's in Australia so Selecon's are cheaper than S4's. In the US they run around 20% higher than a S4 depending on the deal you can get.

Last week the ESTA E1.35-2007 standard, "Standard for Lens Quality Measurements for Pattern Projecting Luminaires Intended for Entertainment Use" was approved as an ANSI standard.

That's very cool! Steve when you get a chance would you mind starting a thread that discusses the standard, what it measures, how it's measured, what a "good score" would be, etc... We are eager to learn more.

 

[Logos]

Note: He's in Australia so Selecon's are cheaper than S4's. In the US they run around 20% higher than a S4 depending on the deal you can get.

Do you know I reckon that I could import S4's from the US cheaper than I could buy them here. The problem would be 120v.

 

[Ford]

Source Fours don't have a bluish hint to them at all color temp wise. Most Par 64s are 1000w with a temperature of 3200k with 800 hour lamp life. Thats the same temperature as a Source Four with 300 hour lamp life...

I'm sorry, I wan't very clear. I was refering to Lekos with HPL 575v (at just over 3200k...3265) vs FELs (at 3200k). It's not much, but it's noticable... especially with the difference in reflectors. Not only is the color temp a little higher, the optics are so much better in our S-4s versus our 20 year old Strand Lekolites that the quality of light is completely dissimilar (spelling?).

When I was refering to an "Entire system", I meant, one set of fixtures from one angle of the same color (so 12 lights maybe per system).

More clear?