Unless you need more than 250 channels for your conventionals and a small selection of LEDs.
Auditorium Lighting Upgrades. Your opinion(s)?
- Thread starterkylethegeek
- Start date
Unless you need more than 250 channels for your conventionals and a small selection of LEDs.
wiscolighting
Member
Not to repeat what others have said but I will try to give my thoughts: I apologize in advance for any spelling issues...
Figure out budget! Your upgrade could easily be anywhere from a few thousand dollars to a few million. Back in my high school we underwent a series of upgrades over a few years that totaled a few million dollars and I can tell you that especially in schools things can get very interesting when it comes to budget... in good ways and bad. So finding out your spending room is a big deal.
As far as a console: I would as others have suggested look into ETC consoles- I like the Ion for schools, its a smaller desk that has all of the major features you would want (keeping in mind this is a school so hopefully the goal of these upgrades is to advance the educating capabilities of your theatre program). The Ion is also expandable so if your budget allows either now or at a later time you can add fader wings (though I would suggest buying a fader wing with the board) for easier basic operation. ETC's Eos family software (Which the Ion runs) is probably one of the most easy to learn softwares out there as far as its basic functionality goes... but as others mentioned there really is no consoles out there today that are easy to learn. So in terms of what is the easiest I would say the Ion... but it will still take some time. Martin M1 is another that I have seen used in schools with some success.
As far as the lights go: Again depending on your budget, I would suggest working in not only intelligent fixtures but some elipsoidals as well, ETC Source Four (I know I am partial to ETC they are right in my back yard here in Wisconsin). For intels... look into some of the newer options from Martin and Vari, again its is going to be dependent on budget... I have seen schools go cheap (Elation, Chauvet), mid range (Martin Mac 250s, VariLite 440s), and High End (Mac 2ks, VariLite 3500s, Mac Vipers, Mac 301s, VariLite VLX3). If you are looking LED Mac kind of is in the lead over VariLite, but in my opinion on Arc Lamp type fixtures Mac and Vari are equally pretty good.
Finally but just as important- infrastructure:
So you buy all of your lights and your pretty new board and you are ready to rock and roll? Not so much. Things that need to be considered, DMX/data communication from the board to the intelligent lights as well as your current dimming system. If you talk with ETC about a board they will probably try to sell you on ETCNet as your communication network from the board to all of your system. Though they have refined ETC net over the years its still has some issues although they finally with ETCNet2 went to a system that was more based on ACN (Architecture For Control Networks) which works well with ETCs boards. If you talk with a rep from ETC or a company that deals ETC's gear with their permission, they will be able to give you a better idea of what you need as far as control infrastructure, including installing your systems. Power is another big issue. You can't use your dimmers to power your intelligent lights, so do you have enough 120V power in the areas that you plan to use intelligent lights? If not you probably will need to bring in electricians (something the guys from the theatre supply house that sell you the board/associated gear may be certified to do) to add power for your intels. In addition you will have to consider power consumption, bigger higher power intels (LEDs are mostly an acception to this) can not be crowded onto one 120V circuit (yes I said circuit not outlet) so you can't assume that every outlet has its own dedicated 120V 20A circuit. For example I would only put say 2 maybe 3 Mac 250 Entour Spots on one 120V 20A circut... any more and it will overload and trip.
In conclusion: get in touch with some of your local theatrical supply houses, I see you are in Illinois, talk with Mainstage Theatrical Supply when you are ready they have a location in Milwaukee. They may turn down your business because you are too far... but you have Chicago in your back yard so check with some of the companies there. I am not to firmiliar with any so maybe someone can suggest a few. These companies may be able to come to your space and along with your budget and needs handle your upgrade.
Figure out budget! Your upgrade could easily be anywhere from a few thousand dollars to a few million. Back in my high school we underwent a series of upgrades over a few years that totaled a few million dollars and I can tell you that especially in schools things can get very interesting when it comes to budget... in good ways and bad. So finding out your spending room is a big deal.
As far as a console: I would as others have suggested look into ETC consoles- I like the Ion for schools, its a smaller desk that has all of the major features you would want (keeping in mind this is a school so hopefully the goal of these upgrades is to advance the educating capabilities of your theatre program). The Ion is also expandable so if your budget allows either now or at a later time you can add fader wings (though I would suggest buying a fader wing with the board) for easier basic operation. ETC's Eos family software (Which the Ion runs) is probably one of the most easy to learn softwares out there as far as its basic functionality goes... but as others mentioned there really is no consoles out there today that are easy to learn. So in terms of what is the easiest I would say the Ion... but it will still take some time. Martin M1 is another that I have seen used in schools with some success.
As far as the lights go: Again depending on your budget, I would suggest working in not only intelligent fixtures but some elipsoidals as well, ETC Source Four (I know I am partial to ETC they are right in my back yard here in Wisconsin). For intels... look into some of the newer options from Martin and Vari, again its is going to be dependent on budget... I have seen schools go cheap (Elation, Chauvet), mid range (Martin Mac 250s, VariLite 440s), and High End (Mac 2ks, VariLite 3500s, Mac Vipers, Mac 301s, VariLite VLX3). If you are looking LED Mac kind of is in the lead over VariLite, but in my opinion on Arc Lamp type fixtures Mac and Vari are equally pretty good.
Finally but just as important- infrastructure:
So you buy all of your lights and your pretty new board and you are ready to rock and roll? Not so much. Things that need to be considered, DMX/data communication from the board to the intelligent lights as well as your current dimming system. If you talk with ETC about a board they will probably try to sell you on ETCNet as your communication network from the board to all of your system. Though they have refined ETC net over the years its still has some issues although they finally with ETCNet2 went to a system that was more based on ACN (Architecture For Control Networks) which works well with ETCs boards. If you talk with a rep from ETC or a company that deals ETC's gear with their permission, they will be able to give you a better idea of what you need as far as control infrastructure, including installing your systems. Power is another big issue. You can't use your dimmers to power your intelligent lights, so do you have enough 120V power in the areas that you plan to use intelligent lights? If not you probably will need to bring in electricians (something the guys from the theatre supply house that sell you the board/associated gear may be certified to do) to add power for your intels. In addition you will have to consider power consumption, bigger higher power intels (LEDs are mostly an acception to this) can not be crowded onto one 120V circuit (yes I said circuit not outlet) so you can't assume that every outlet has its own dedicated 120V 20A circuit. For example I would only put say 2 maybe 3 Mac 250 Entour Spots on one 120V 20A circut... any more and it will overload and trip.
In conclusion: get in touch with some of your local theatrical supply houses, I see you are in Illinois, talk with Mainstage Theatrical Supply when you are ready they have a location in Milwaukee. They may turn down your business because you are too far... but you have Chicago in your back yard so check with some of the companies there. I am not to firmiliar with any so maybe someone can suggest a few. These companies may be able to come to your space and along with your budget and needs handle your upgrade.
And want the security/futureproofability of not backing up soley onto floppy disks.
Absolutely agree. I might suggest Schuler Shook, Theatre Consultants.
The final gear list or bid list should come at the end of the process, not the beginning. WHY do you want to move away from your existing control system? What features in a new console do you find desirable? Which features can you live without? What problems do you foresee moving lights solving for you? What problems will they create? And so on.
The major players in Chicago are
Grand Stage
DesignLab Chicago
Chicago Spotlight
wiscolighting
Member
Thanks I don't know why I completely blanked out on productions houses in Chicago especially DesignLab considering I have worked in spaces that do business with them.
You will find working with an ETC Element or Ion very similar to working with an ETC Express, but with a lot more power under the hood. It will be a smooth transition for those who already know these consoles. ETC is also is the home of legendary customer service, and for many people this alone is enough to keep them from even considering any other product. On the other hand, I find the Strand console line much easier to teach new users. It's a Windows like experience which I find new computer literate users quickly feel at home in. The learning curve is much lower than the ETC consoles because things are laid out in a very familiar Windows way. You would be wise to try demos of both consoles and see what you think. That said, perhaps the biggest factor for schools to consider in the choice between ETC and Strand is that most professional theaters in the industry use ETC. If you want students to learn to use something they will use in the workplace some day, you should probably choose ETC. UNLESS you are talking about a serious moving light console. Then you have to go with MA or Hog.
This is by far the best advice offered in this thread. If you are going to do more than buy a console and maybe a few fixtures you really should have a professional consultant help you with your purchase. A few thousand dollars spent on a consultant can save you years of headaches and pain from taking the advice of an eager salesman.
That's an unfair statement at best. Strand consoles are not as widely used but an equal in many ways to ETC consoles in the realm of traditional theatrical lighting or hybrid theatrical/concert lighting. When it comes to serious moving light work GrandMA and WholeHog set the industry standard. We have a lot of ETC fans around here, and don't get me wrong I love ETC. But to completely dismiss Strand, GrandMa, and Hog like that is crazy talk.
$1000 will get you a low end, limited option Chinese made moving light. You need to spend more in the $2000-$3000 to get into a moving light that most people around here would consider reliable. Most quality moving lights cost in the $5000-$15000 range. As was linked above, spend some time reading my "Gafftaper method" print it out and take it into your advisers to read. Movers are very cool but in my opinion there are VERY few high schools where they are the appropriate tool. Who is going to spend the hours and hours to program them? How often will you REALLY use them when you consider the many hours it takes to just program one song. Will you have the ongoing budget to replace lamps that cost hundreds of dollars every year? If you don't have a paid person on staff qualified to service them you probably shouldn't buy them. If you really have a budget that big I would look at i-Cues, Right Arms, Seachangers, and color changing LED fixtures long before I would consider Movers. These items all have the ability to make your life easier. Movers are really cool but they only make productions more complicated. Most high schools are not prepared for the level of time and budget commitment required to use them.
This is by far the best advice offered in this thread. If you are going to do more than buy a console and maybe a few fixtures you really should have a professional consultant help you with your purchase. A few thousand dollars spent on a consultant can save you years of headaches and pain from taking the advice of an eager salesman.
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kylethegeek
Member
Okay. Thanks for the inputs here. Looks like moving lights are out of the question then. (I'm just looking around, trying to find the best of what we have, and seeing what are the best options out there)
About the consultant: I don't exactly know our budget (I was basing those figures off of our audio install, I don't actually know what our budget is.) but I will keep this in mind, and see what we are going to do.
Now, for Strand over ETC, I'm not sure about this one. I learned on our Express 48/96, but for the incoming tech people, we may want to look at a strand. Although, we've been working with ETC for the whole time this auditorium has been open (~15ish years)
Thanks for the input!
Kyle,
I'm originally from Polo. I designed the system that is installed there now as well as still act as their TD for most shows. They have an ETC Element 60/500 console and it is great to work with. It doesn't have quite all the bells and whistles of an ION, but then again that is that much stuff that is less to worry about and really isn't needed until you get into really big productions. Anyway I'd be more than happy to talk with you about what your thoughts are, what your needs are and also show you and your TD the Element console and how it works. In all honesty it is a simple, easy console to pick up, learn and use. It is MUCH easier than a SmartFade series (and not much more $). I can't say anything about Strand as I've never used them.
You could really use some more S4 pars, like 20 more. I've not heard a whole lot of people that like the field on the S4 parnel. Some Altman Fresnels make great, cheap wash lights too. The new Elation ELAR LEDs are a great looking LED fixture. I'm also very happy with the Chauvet Colorado TriTour fixtures I have.
Anyway, give me a call and we'll talk. 1-608-348-5462 during the day or send me a PM if you need to call in the evening.
I'm originally from Polo. I designed the system that is installed there now as well as still act as their TD for most shows. They have an ETC Element 60/500 console and it is great to work with. It doesn't have quite all the bells and whistles of an ION, but then again that is that much stuff that is less to worry about and really isn't needed until you get into really big productions. Anyway I'd be more than happy to talk with you about what your thoughts are, what your needs are and also show you and your TD the Element console and how it works. In all honesty it is a simple, easy console to pick up, learn and use. It is MUCH easier than a SmartFade series (and not much more $). I can't say anything about Strand as I've never used them.
You could really use some more S4 pars, like 20 more. I've not heard a whole lot of people that like the field on the S4 parnel. Some Altman Fresnels make great, cheap wash lights too. The new Elation ELAR LEDs are a great looking LED fixture. I'm also very happy with the Chauvet Colorado TriTour fixtures I have.
Anyway, give me a call and we'll talk. 1-608-348-5462 during the day or send me a PM if you need to call in the evening.
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kylethegeek
Member
hrm.. I know that we don't have an element right now... we have an Express 48/96... I know we had an older board, that we had out at storage... it disappeared, (it more than likely got sold or reclaimed for auction by the district) and I don't know what that board was... so...
but, I will talk to my TD today, and see what he thinks.
but, I will talk to my TD today, and see what he thinks.
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RickR
Well-Known Member
Take him up on this! Visiting similar places and getting a consultant are the two best ideas mentioned. IMHO
Note also that if you are spending anywhere near what you say the whole project will probably have to go out to bid. Schools are government and they have very firm rules. This will likely mean that you will need a consultant to create serious documentation.
You can best help by defining functional goals. What do you do that takes a lot of time? What is frequently asked for that can't be done? How much is the space used for different events? (concerts, plays, meetings, classes, etc.) Will upgrading get or save money in any way? Do you support outside groups or rentals? Who will be responsible for keeping the system running and teaching how to use it? And how much do they know about lighting?? With those answers a consultant can really go to town.
So you have 156 dimmers and have identified 44 circuits plus three electrics. Do you have 36 or so circuits per electric, are there others you have not mentioned or do you have a bunch of open dimmers? Do you have DMX distribution? I ask because if you are considering adding or moving power, adding DMX, etc. then you may be getting into some infrastructure related design and construction costs. And if it entails scaffolding or anything like that then there may be not only an associated cost but also associated time that the venue might have to be black.
Also, don't forget the possibility of spending some of the money on planning ahead for any associated increased operating costs. It might also be a good opportunity to address gel stock, lamp stock, cables, maintenance of existing fixtures, etc. Having all the things you need and being able to rely on what you have can be just as much an improvement as new hardware and I've seen people look pretty foolish after just spending a bunch of money on new big dollar items only to then not be able to do something because of issues with existing equipment or supplies.
That's an "educated guess" budget range of $25,000 to $150,000, a 6:1 range. I realize you are trying to establish a budget but the such a wide potential range could potentially support several very different approaches depending on where you actually fall in that range. Whether it is deciding on a single target budget or developing multiple (e.g. good/better/best) options, you might want to try to develop some more specific goals.
This also touches on a more basic issue in that you mentioned the school board seems to be looking for way for the auditorium "to get better" while you seem to be addressing some specific equipment changes. What seems to be missing is the relationship of the equipment changes being considered to the auditorium getting "better". What problems are you currently facing? What things have you wanted or been asked to do that you could not? Basically, why is what you proposed a good expenditure and in terms to which the board members can relate, how does it make the auditorium better? You may end up competing for budget with carpeting, seating, mechanical system upgrades and repairs, new architectural light fixtures and a myriad of other things that may also make the auditorium better so the stronger your argument that others can understand, the more likely for them to recognize the related value.
Chris Chapman
Active Member
My facility went through a very similar upgrade this year. We did the big debate on Ion vs. Element. On the dollars to donuts question, the low end Ion costs less than the high end Element. We upgraded from an Express 250, with the target of adding LED fixtures to our inventory. We have 10 Seladors added in now, and I'm very happy.
The next thing for us would be to expand our conventional a little bit more, and add some more DMX equipment and LED's. We had the debate on movers, but in the educational setting, I'm having a hard time making that argument. The cost of 2-3 Martins equals the cost of so much other gear.
The biggest trick is getting a handle on how the venue is used, and what the plan is for the future.
With my upgrade path in mind, we also decided to not upgrade to a Net2/3 configuration in our system, and run the Ion to dimmers over straight DMX. We lost some of the ETC Net functionality, but frankly we rarely ever used those bells and whistles. To do the Net2/3 upgrade, my D20AF Sensor Racks needed new backplanes. That line item alone started at about $12K.
In a School District setting, most likely an outside consultant/project manager is going to be brought in. Make sure that they are folks who have a good reputation that you can trust. Some outfits will go with a cookie cutter Educational Facility approach saying, "You need this" when in fact it isn't based on how venues even operate. The Radio RFU for example, was given a hard sell to me as well, but the decision to run iRFU software on an iPad trumped that discussion by saving almost $5K. When my consultant/manager started to listen to me, and gauged that I indeed know what I was talking about, my needs/desires for the project were than elevated instead of just signing off on the cookie cutter approach.
The next thing for us would be to expand our conventional a little bit more, and add some more DMX equipment and LED's. We had the debate on movers, but in the educational setting, I'm having a hard time making that argument. The cost of 2-3 Martins equals the cost of so much other gear.
The biggest trick is getting a handle on how the venue is used, and what the plan is for the future.
With my upgrade path in mind, we also decided to not upgrade to a Net2/3 configuration in our system, and run the Ion to dimmers over straight DMX. We lost some of the ETC Net functionality, but frankly we rarely ever used those bells and whistles. To do the Net2/3 upgrade, my D20AF Sensor Racks needed new backplanes. That line item alone started at about $12K.
In a School District setting, most likely an outside consultant/project manager is going to be brought in. Make sure that they are folks who have a good reputation that you can trust. Some outfits will go with a cookie cutter Educational Facility approach saying, "You need this" when in fact it isn't based on how venues even operate. The Radio RFU for example, was given a hard sell to me as well, but the decision to run iRFU software on an iPad trumped that discussion by saving almost $5K. When my consultant/manager started to listen to me, and gauged that I indeed know what I was talking about, my needs/desires for the project were than elevated instead of just signing off on the cookie cutter approach.
Instead of new backplanes, if you wanted to upgrade to Net3, I'd do it so that at the console, you'd output Cat5e into the Net3 network, then have your Net3 gateway output DMX into your dimmer racks instead of Net3.
You may not really use the features of Net3 or of networked control, but the backplane issue alone shouldn't be the sole deterrent.
I like Net3 because I can reprogram which ports are inputs, outputs, and which universes each are. I can also put my console anywhere in the theatre, or drop a laptop anywhere and connect to the console if I want to control it remotely or set up a display of the cue stack for an SM or LD.
If you've already got a system in place that works pretty well for you and you don't see yourself taking advantage of any Net3 features, I can understand not upgrading that though. Pulling new wire, buying gateways, and installing new wall plates isn't cheap.
That said, CAT5E infrastructure is pretty ubiquitous at this point. Whether it be for audio, data, or lighting, you won't have an absence of uses for it.
You may not really use the features of Net3 or of networked control, but the backplane issue alone shouldn't be the sole deterrent.
I like Net3 because I can reprogram which ports are inputs, outputs, and which universes each are. I can also put my console anywhere in the theatre, or drop a laptop anywhere and connect to the console if I want to control it remotely or set up a display of the cue stack for an SM or LD.
If you've already got a system in place that works pretty well for you and you don't see yourself taking advantage of any Net3 features, I can understand not upgrading that though. Pulling new wire, buying gateways, and installing new wall plates isn't cheap.
That said, CAT5E infrastructure is pretty ubiquitous at this point. Whether it be for audio, data, or lighting, you won't have an absence of uses for it.
Chris Chapman
Active Member
Exactly Mike. The budget for my lighting upgrade was less than 1/4 of a $100K project that included a new sound board, and completely replacing softgoods. The Net3 upgrade also took me over my budget limit. Adding that functionality in the future is a probablility.
kylethegeek
Member
I'll have to go through and find out where they are all at. That's about right for the electrics. We have a band shell that takes 4 circuits I think. I'll have to find my diagram of everything.
I know that we have an operating budget for gels, lamps, and maintenance, so, that's not a big concern as of right now.
Yep... We're trying to establish what we can do. I don't actually know how much money we have available (I should find out... to provide more accurate details) but yes, that does lead to VERY different answers. I apologize for not knowing at this point.
A slight update: We are currently in a show, so we aren't looking at doing anything drastic at this point. This is just in the back of our minds, as we have the opportunity to upgrade. When this show is over, we'll probably get started on this project.
