Control/Dimming Behringer LD6230 - Boat anchor?

[MikeW]

I would second the motion for the Lightronics dimmers here. Great value,they never break(or at least not on me),easy to use/setup.
Solid warranty and good customer service. We install them in churches all the time. They are also UL Listed. I have talked to most everyone there either at trade shows or on the phone and have always gotten good info from tech support as well.
There are a number of solid manufactures out there with gret gear for a good price. B%^$& ringer .....not so much.



Mike W
www.vslpro.com
VSL ProLite

 

[SHARYNF]

Just to clarify Lightronics are listed as Control equipment, not the more stringent Theater classification. Problem is going to the UL site to check is almost meaningless, since even ETC does not seem to be there. Usually from an install perspective the inspection person will look for the sticker on the unit.


Sharyn

 

[fredthe]

I posed the UL question to Behringer's on-line support. Here's their response:

The LD6230 is CE Listed. CE is a testing standard which is similar to the UL standards.

So, basically this is a European unit, that hasn't been tested to US standards.

-Fred

 

[derekleffew]

...Problem is going to the UL site to check is almost meaningless, since even ETC does not seem to be there. ...

Entering "electronic theatre contols" into the Company Name field yields 24 results.

 

[Anvilx]

So, basically this is a European unit, that hasn't been tested to US standards.

I guess they don't call it the Eurolight LD6230 for nothing.

 

[SHARYNF]

Entering "electronic theatre contols" into the Company Name field yields 24 results.

yup theatre gets them every time ;-0

Behringer does have some listings but not the dimmers Since as mentioned there are many testing companies it is hard to just do a search which is why the usual untimate test is does it have the sticker or not

Most of this discussion seems to go in the direction of if it is not listed and you have a problem you are going to not get your insurance company to pay etc. IMO there is something to all that but in my experience when it all all goes wrong, everyone gets sued, and Behringer if it were the manufacturer of the problem causing situation would just get sued, and they have pretty deep pockets



Sharyn

 

[Les]

Makes me wonder. Out of all these strict UL rules, how many of the rule-following theatres out there have a non-UL listed coffee pot in the greenroom? Is that desk lamp UL listed? How about the powerstrip the ticket printer is plugged into?

 

[church]

church...thx for info...concerned about UL listing...do you have anything in your documentation that shows any kind of UL listing or similar? For my needs these will essentially live in a rack backstage and not go anywhere...but again concerned about UL listing.

I went and checked both my units and they both have a CSA listing and the CE listing. Neither unit has a a UL label attached. The CSA listing is perfect for me in Canada - the problem I normally have is that equipment has a UL listing but does not have any Canadian approval which results in me having to get an Ontario Field Approval.

As Derek said in his post the website does not indicate any approvals however the units sold in Canada do have approvals on the equipment. I would call Behringer in the U.S. and ask.

 

[church]

Well I called Berhinger USA (+1 425-627-0816) just out of curiosity and asked if the LD6230 was UL listed. Here is the conversation.

Me: Hi yes I'm wondering if the LD6230 is UL listed.

Support: UL listed? What do you mean?

Me: You know U-L as in Underwriter Laboratories.

Support: ok I get you. Let me put you on hold while I check....

< Low quality music comes on pulled from an radio station, you would think a company specializing in sound gear would want the highest fidelity hold music possible>

Support: Ok sorry to put you on hold. Well, it is UL listed if you buy it from an authorized US dealer.

Me: Could you elaborate. What if you buy it from an un-authorized dealer.

Support: I really don't know.

Me: Alright, Thanks, Bye.​

The above phone call is not that unusual at all - it is not uncommon for a U.S. manufacturer to sell equipment through canadian and U.S. dealer networks and only the equipment sold through the Canadian Dealer comes with the required Canadian approvals. Remember Behringer is a German Company so it is possible that the equipment sold in the U.S. through their U.S. dealer network carries a UL approval and the equipment has some modifications to comply with U.S. codes.

Before anyone says that this is because I have ETC S4s, Altman fixtures and more than 20 Colortran fixtures that were imported into Canada through the Canadian Dealer networks without any Canadian approvals and they all had to have an Ontario Field Approvals. Colortran, Altman and ETC now have Canadian approvals on their equipment.

I mention all of this because the original poster was asking good questions and everyone gets excited for the wrong reasons because something is not our favourite brand - but this does not mean that the equipment is not serviceable and is not capable of performing well.

The issue of approvals is very pertinent but not very well understood. As the purchaser it is our responsibility to educate ourselves re the equipment, the application and the required approvals and ensure the following:

1) the equipment has the required local approval(s) clearly and securely attached to the equipment - if the approval is unreadable or missing it is no longer invalid.
2) the equipment is unaltered - any alterations void the approvals.
3) the equipment is installed in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions and as reqired by local codes - when a conflict between these requirements exists then it must be resolved with the local agency who has jurisdiction.
4) The installation is approved as per local requirements
5) the equipment is maintained and operated in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions by trained and competent people.

In my "day job" we bring very expensive U.S. designed and manufactured electronic test equipment in from the U.S. every month a significant proportion of this equipment does not have a Canadian approval although it does have a UL approval. We bring the feld evaluation guys in they inspect the equipment and the schematics ask for modifications to the internal grounding and breakers, my guys do the modifications and they issue the sticker and we can use the equipment - no fuss no excitement.

 

[Anvilx]

Thank you Church.

So let me ask this Regardless of the UL listing, is the LD6230 a good unit?

 

[lightman02]

Thank you Church.

So let me ask this Regardless of the UL listing, is the LD6230 a good unit?

I wouldn't buy much from Behringer especially the lighting stuff. I have a EUROLIGHT LC2412 control board that I bought for small portable shows because it was small and cheap. I 've had nothing but problems with it, sometimes the scene/bump buttons trigger sometimes they don't. I checked into getting parts and called Behringer directly. They reffered me to a service center, when I called the service center they said they don't work on or can they get parts for the lighting stuff. So I called Behrnger back to basically get the answer that I was SOL. Don't buy anything from them, if it breaks and it probably will you will not be able to get service or parts. Also Behringer is known for steeling other manufactures designs and using the cheapest components they can buy to make their crap.

 

[Anvilx]

I wouldn't buy much from Behringer especially the lighting stuff. I have a EUROLIGHT LC2412 control board that I bought for small portable shows because it was small and cheap. I 've had nothing but problems with it, sometimes the scene/bump buttons trigger sometimes they don't. I checked into getting parts and called Behringer directly. They reffered me to a service center, when I called the service center they said they don't work on or can they get parts for the lighting stuff. So I called Behrnger back to basically get the answer that I was SOL. Don't buy anything from them, if it breaks and it probably will you will not be able to get service or parts. Also Behringer is known for steeling other manufactures designs and using the cheapest components they can buy to make their crap.

I hear what you are saying but that is not what I asked. We know Behringer's track record, and that they often use cheap parts. But the question was not are Behringer's products high quality the question was is the LD6230 a good unit.

Sure it is no substitute for a ETC sensor rack road case, no one expects it to be. So to make myself clearer how does it stack up on the lower end? Compared to say these lower price and/or smaller dimmers:

Chuavet DMX-4
Chuavet Pro-D6
Dove systems DM 406
Leprecon ULD-340/360 Series
ADJ DP-415
ADJ Cyberpack
ADJ DP-DMX20L
(just to name a few)​

 

[lightman02]

I hear what you are saying but that is not what I asked. We know Behringer's track record, and that they often use cheap parts. But the question was not are Behringer's products high quality the question was is the LD6230 a good unit.

Sure it is no substitute for a ETC sensor rack road case, no one expects it to be. So to make myself clearer how does it stack up on the lower end? Compared to say these lower price and/or smaller dimmers:

Chuavet DMX-4
Chuavet Pro-D6
Dove systems DM 406
Leprecon ULD-340/360 Series
ADJ DP-415
ADJ Cyberpack
ADJ DP-DMX20L
(just to name a few)​

Not sure what you’re saying at all, for your case any dimmer system you can buy is going to dim a light from approx 0-100%. You can buy the cheapest piece of garbage on the market and it will work, how long will it work for is the question. It's a low-end unit, some last longer some don't, and you get what you pay for. Will it work??? Probably but if it fails in the field prematurely, well that’s the risk you take with cheap low quality stuff. Getting it repaired quickly would be a big factor in my eyes. How many times have you heard Chauvet or AMDJ dimmer packs blowing out their dimmers??? I've heard of that a few times but up until then they were dimming lights. Besides they are only 6 channels on this unit which is odd, as most portable rack units have at least 8. Also they are only 1.2k for each dimmer, you are better off on going with packs for that load handling ability as this seems pretty much like a useless rack mount unit in my opinion. Also there are no outlets built in at all, you would have to wire up your own external breakout.

 

[SHARYNF]

The Behringer units are IMO a knock off on the NSI dds8600 units. A lot of these class units use 6 channels so that they can evenly load the three phases (2 channels per phase leg). In todays market with Source 4 etc, 1200W units are becoming more common and acceptable. With the low cost of these units, replacing is more typical than repairing.

These folks use them as a main component of their dimmer racks. Something you might want to look at since it puts a whole system together

Behringer 24ch Dimmer Racks offered by DimmerRack, Unique items for the Audio and Lighting Professional

here is a link to the discussion of them on Pro sound web
Tom Kappler is the guy at Dimmer Rack

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/499366/0/

Overall there seemed to be some skepticism but considering how really bad products/companies get completely obliterated
in some discussions on PSW, these SEEM to be OK

I personally have NOT worked with these dimmers, just passing along information
Sharyn

 

[lightman02]

The Behringer units are IMO a knock off on the NSI dds8600 units. A lot of these class units use 6 channels so that they can evenly load the three phases (2 channels per phase leg). In todays market with Source 4 etc, 1200W units are becoming more common and acceptable. With the low cost of these units, replacing is more typical than repairing.

These folks use them as a main component of their dimmer racks. Something you might want to look at since it puts a whole system together

Behringer 24ch Dimmer Racks offered by DimmerRack, Unique items for the Audio and Lighting Professional
Sharyn

Not trying to create an argument but if you look at the dimmerrack website you can tell this is some avergage guy most likely working out of his house. There's no address, just a city and state. So I wouldn't trust this source to much considering this seems to be the only dimmers they show on their site and we know there are much more out there. However you are correct on the phase information, but as I've said I've still seen 8 or 12 more often then 6.

 

[SHARYNF]

I am not trying to recommend or endorse this guy, if you look at the PSW thread Tom explains a bit more about his background.

This whole thread started based on a request for a low cost system, and some questions on Behringer. This link might prove useful if nothing more than allowing for someone to ask for some customer references from people actually using these in systems.

I am not a fan of Behringer, but I have seen situations in the past where after a while when the "pros" got more comfortable and experience with some of the products the recomendation level moved from "not in a million years to probably ok" the ADA8000 comes to mind

Again, If this guy has been building this stuff for years, he must have a lot of customers and should be willing to give references.

The other reason why 6 channel might work better for some people is the ability to just connect the output to a single Soca connection per unit
Sharyn

 

[JD]

I hear what you are saying but that is not what I asked. We know Behringer's track record, and that they often use cheap parts. But the question was not are Behringer's products high quality the question was is the LD6230 a good unit.

Sure it is no substitute for a ETC sensor rack road case, no one expects it to be. So to make myself clearer how does it stack up on the lower end? Compared to say these lower price and/or smaller dimmers:

Chuavet DMX-4
Chuavet Pro-D6
Dove systems DM 406
Leprecon ULD-340/360 Series
ADJ DP-415
ADJ Cyberpack
ADJ DP-DMX20L
(just to name a few)​

Here is the question to ask: "What size triac are they using?" The shoebox dimmers (DMX-4, DP-415, DP-DMX20L) use 15 amp triacs so they sometimes fail on 1k loads. A lot of cheap 1k dimmers (like the Elation 12chn rackmount) us 40 amp triacs for a 1k rating so they are far less likely to fail. All other things considered, if the LD6230 uses 40 amp triacs then I would rate it above the DMX-4 etc. (IMHO)

 

[church]

Thank you Church.

So let me ask this Regardless of the UL listing, is the LD6230 a good unit?

Probably the best way to answer your question is by saying that I will probably buy more of these units.

To add to JD's point about the TRIACs the NSI, Elation, Chauvet and other units use BTA16 TRIAcs in both their 600W and 1000W per channel dimmer packs. The BTA16 TRIAC has an an absolute maximum rating of 16A - if I was designing a 1200W or 1kw per channel dimmer I would be using a device with a minimum rating of 20A which means I would select a 25A device. I will not go into the reasons here to avoid boring everyone. This approach does add to the cost but increases reliability.

However to satisfy my curiosity re the Behringer Eurolight dimmer pack I opened one up and they use the BTA25-600CW TRIAC which is a snuberless 25A, 600V absolute maximum rating device with a sensitivity of 35mA in the RD91 package. The TO-220 package has a junction to case thermal resistance of 1.7 degrees centigrade per watt compared with the 1.1 degrees per centigrade per watt for the RD91 package. This does not sound like much but it is important as keeping the junction temperature as low as possible increases reliability. The heat sink measures 9.5 inches by 3 inches by 2 inches and is a good quality finned alluminium sink with black anodising to increase the emissivity with fan ccoling.

I have a photo if you are interested which I can email you if you PM me.