Cost advantage for Broadway vs Hollywood Flats?

[BillConnerFASTC]

What!!! No clinch plates anymore!!!

Flats and parallels - built with corner blocks and clout nails - staples (pun intended) of the industry. Glue? I didn't need any stinking glue. Except to put canvas on and size them.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

If you're looking for someone with clout to do some nailing, perhaps @derekleffew could be of assistance ?

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I work in a theatre that uses a framing method that I have never seen before. They frame using 2x2. IE they take 2x4 and rip into 2x2. They skin with Luan. 2x4 is plentiful and comparatively cheap. Works out as less than 1x4or 1x3. It's thinner than a typical Hollywood flat so storage is easier. There is enough edge so you cam drill flats together like true Hollywood flats.

It seems strange to me when I first saw it, but it works well for them.

Thats something I've seen done at several "storefronts". Its nothing I have a problem with really, and its nice because you can screw any which way you like at a corner to attach flats together. The only people Ive met with strong opposition to it are those with traditional theatrical training.

 

[lwinters630]

Storage, Do you have tall ceiling in your storage where you can put warehouse racking, store heavy items low and Hollywood flats above them.

 

[hjhillhouse]

Other things to consider about Broadway styles is the movement of the muslin, particularly in sets with doors... I hate fabric shakes, and it takes several coats of paint before the muslin is stiff enough to stop moving. Also, the additional skill required of knowing how to paint on muslin without showing off the edges of the framing. Depending on the skills of your paint crew, it can be an issue.

 

[kendal69]

I see you actual problem and it's "My board of trustees is unhappy with the costs." You need to lay down the law with the board, simply tell them to decide, do they want a quality production of do they want to save money because they can not have both. If they want to save money tell them you will collect old refrigerator boxes from home depot and build your sets out of them. Otherwise all them to get off your behind and let you do your work. It's time to set your foot down and educate the "suits" all they look at is numbers and they think you can just "cut" whenever you fell like it. Time to tell then NO, not gonna do it. Grow a pair, and stand up to the board and let them know you can't work and be creative under their conditions. [DROP THE MIC]

 

[TheaterEd]

[DROP THE MIC]

If that was anything other than a sm58 you just dropped sound department is taking it out of your budget.

 

[StradivariusBone]

Hey, what happen to clout nails?

That's what I use. That and a little glue on the corner blocks and it holds up tight. Plus my kids learn how to drive a nail which might come in handy for them later in life. My local store stocks some 1/2" ones for roofing.

I never thought to use staples! What gauge staples are you guys using to frame these things? I'm assuming the heavier duty ones you see in fence construction?

 

[JChenault]

That's what I use. That and a little glue on the corner blocks and it holds up tight. Plus my kids learn how to drive a nail which might come in handy for them later in life. My local store stocks some 1/2" ones for roofing.

I never thought to use staples! What gauge staples are you guys using to frame these things? I'm assuming the heavier duty ones you see in fence construction?

Er... in my experience ( assuming you are talking about 1x3or 1x4 with 1/4 inch ply a clout nail would need to be 1 1/4 inch long. The idea is that the nail goes through the ply and 1x , hits a clinch plate, and bends back into the 1x in a 'U' shape. A roofing nail is not a clout nail.

By staples, some kind of construction staple with a pneumatic driver. When I was building scenery out of wood we had narrow crown staples, 3/4 inch long.

 

[RonHebbard]

If that was anything other than a sm58 you just dropped sound department is taking it out of your budget.

@TheaterEd Or an EV664 or 635 or . . .
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[RonHebbard]

Er... in my experience ( assuming you are talking about 1x3or 1x4 with 1/4 inch ply a clout nail would need to be 1 1/4 inch long. The idea is that the nail goes through the ply and 1x , hits a clinch plate, and bends back into the 1x in a 'U' shape. A roofing nail is not a clout nail.

By staples, some kind of construction staple with a pneumatic driver. When I was building scenery out of wood we had narrow crown staples, 3/4 inch long.

@JChenault Were the pneumatic staples only to hold the joint together until the glue dried?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[StradivariusBone]

Er... in my experience ( assuming you are talking about 1x3or 1x4 with 1/4 inch ply a clout nail would need to be 1 1/4 inch long. The idea is that the nail goes through the ply and 1x , hits a clinch plate, and bends back into the 1x in a 'U' shape. A roofing nail is not a clout nail.

These are what I was talking about. I know roofing nail covers some wide territory, but I think they use this to tack down felt. I don't know where I was coming from with the 1/2" though. I've been trying to figure out more permanent shutters for my house in light of these hurricanes and I don't think my brain is processing hardware properly at this point.

 

[jdenora]

What are the best building methods to control for costs? We typically build Hollywood style flats, but costs of lumber are exponential. We also don't have much storage space, so we tend to re-build flats often.

Is there a cost advantage to using Broadway style flats? Another type?

Any other cost saving ideas for set building/construction? I.e. a way to get discounts or styles that we haven't thought of?

I don't think there is a tremendous cost savings between Broadway flats and Hollywood flats, not even if you implement some of the variations in construction methods that have been suggested in other posts. Either time or materials will add up. Instead of destroying the flats after every production, perhaps you should consider your storage space. If you do not have enough at your theater, find places to store flats off site. You could rent a storage unit, which are climate controlled and should preserve your flats quite nicely. The monthly costs may be less than rebuilding them all the time. You will also be saving a lot of construction time on each production, and time is money. If presented to your board that way, you may have a winning solution.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

That's what I use. That and a little glue on the corner blocks and it holds up tight. Plus my kids learn how to drive a nail which might come in handy for them later in life. My local store stocks some 1/2" ones for roofing.

I never thought to use staples! What gauge staples are you guys using to frame these things? I'm assuming the heavier duty ones you see in fence construction?

OMG Google and Strad agree and neither knows what a clout nails use to be. Amazing.

Looked like a cut nail, soft iron, nailed through corner blocks and still on a steel plate and the end curls back into still.

PS - square wedge, across grain so it doesn't split the pine.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I like using a wide crown stapler to shoot on the keystones and corner blocks, but many shops don't have that gun or the proper ammo for it. I also haven't built a true Broadway flat in a few years.

The last thing that I DID built that was flat like was a set of three large roadboxes out of 7-layer 3/4" ply. Before facing one side with 1/4" ply, I used a corrugated stapler to put the frames together. I put two staples in one face, and one on the opposite side. Corrugated staples work great in ply, whereas they tend to split 1x pine.

 

[StradivariusBone]

The softer iron would make more sense with the curl. I just always heard anything with a wider than normal head referred to as a clout nail. I figured it was a category of some kind. Is this more of what you all are talking about? - http://www.glasgowsteelnail.com/restore.htm#clout

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The softer iron would make more sense with the curl. I just always heard anything with a wider than normal head referred to as a clout nail. I figured it was a category of some kind. Is this more of what you all are talking about? - http://www.glasgowsteelnail.com/restore.htm#clout

Yes.
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=clinch+nails&tag=controlbooth-20
Amazon never disappoints

 

[EWCguy]

...a cut nail, soft iron, nailed through corner blocks and still on a steel plate and the end curls back into still.

I'm picturing this building process. Is the steel plate just a temporary use item just to turn the nail on driving? Drive nail from face side or corner block?

 

[Van]

I'm picturing this building process. Is the steel plate just a temporary use item just to turn the nail on driving? Drive nail from face side or corner block?

The nail was driven through the Corner block, Keystone or half keystone, the Clinch plate lay on the floor. The Point of the nail would hit it then turn back into the face of the frame material. You wanted the head on the Back side for the larger area of retention force. And yes, getting rust stains in the corners of your flats was an issue.

Some shops would have clinch plates installed in 'Standard' areas of the shop floor. More often than not the clinch was just another tool you moved around when you needed it.

 

[JonCarter]

13 nails in a corner block, 9 nails in a keystone, and always orient the nails so that they curl across the grain.