Control/Dimming ETC Sensor or Strand Light Rack ?

bradykeen

Member
Hi,
I am a new user. I have been on the site before and found it awesome to see all these opinions and actual personal encounters with different equipment.

I was also hoping that some one/a whole bunch of people could help me decided/let me know there opinions on a 48 Channel:
Which is better and why?

Thanks!
 
Hey
Welcome !! Well to start I would go with ETC just becuase I have found them to be much more reliable and ETC tech support are great they will call you back when you leave a message.

Where are you located ? maybe you can get a test drive of each rack ?
 
Welcome to Controlbooth!

There have been many discussions on the merits of each on CB. DO a search and see what people have said.

Again, let me welcome you to ControlBooth!

dvsDave
 
I'm not sure how readily available they are in wherever you are, but I'm a massive fan of the LSC dimmers, they do touring models in 1/6/12/24/48 channel variants, and they make install models, my school had LSC dimmers with a LSC console too, that was made in the late 70's and still going strong. The console died a few years ago is now dead and framed above my bed. I really like them.
Nick
 
Welcome to the Booth! I'm moving this to the lighting forum so you get more people to read it.

Both ETC and Strand are fine manufacturers. ETC is the leader of the industry but Strand isn't far behind. Strand is a company that has been around a long time (and bought out MANY times over the years). ETC has only been with us about 20 years. ETC quickly became #1 in the industry because of the of the excellent quality of their products and their amazing customer service. Today not only will ETC provide service on every product they have ever made, they will provide service on products they inherited from a company they bought out like 15 years ago. They are CRAZY about making sure you get the support you need. Strand has made some VERY well loved products over the years and has a devoted user base (Like Cirque Du Soleil). Unfortunately, Strand's track record in customer service is full of products that they discontinued and then abandoned making it impossible for owners to get parts. About 2 years ago Strand was purchased by the Phillips empire. They have been working very hard to change their public image and improve their customer service record. I have a new Strand install at my theater and I'm very happy with the way I have been treated so far. Am I concerned that things may change and go back to the bad old days when former product lines were abandoned... yeah a little. But so far, they have worked hard to prove to me things are different.

Let's face it we are talking about the #1 and #2 in the industry, neither product is going to be terrible. I suggest you forget about the popularity contest and analyze what features you need and which product best meets those needs. Then weigh the balance of features, price, and the customer service record discussed above. What is most important to you?

Tell us more about your rig, and how you will be using this dimmer rack. That additional information should help us help you more.

Be sure to get multiple price quotes... pricing can vary quite a bit. Read this if you don't understand how pricing works in this industry.

Let's keep the discussion civil everyone.

I'm not sure how readily available they are in wherever you are, but I'm a massive fan of the LSC dimmers
LSC is an Australian manufacturer and probably not a great choice if you are in the US.
 
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...I was also hoping that some one/a whole bunch of people could help me decided/let me know there opinions on a 48 Channel:
Which is better and why?...
"Better" is such a subjective term. Which do you consider better--a Honda Accord or a Kia Rio? One of the above is and has been the industry standard since 1992. It allows for multiple inputs and protocols, and has various options for output, perhaps most importantly the ability to patch load circuits into dimmers. The other lacks features most professionals are unwilling to overlook. One is used on every top-level touring music act, the other may be acceptable for bars and DJs. One is heavy and constructed from steel, weighing 700 pounds and featuring modular components. The other, two men can load in the back of a pickup truck. One has set the standard for dimmer performance. The other solicits comments from users about a delay in the system, making the dimmers, like the manufacturer, slow to respond. Oh yeah, one costs more to purchase than the other. Whether or not it costs more to own has yet to be seen.

See also https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/strands-new-light-rack-dimmer-rack.9122/ .
 
ETC has only been with us about 20 years. ETC quickly became #1 in the industry because of the of the excellent quality of their products and their amazing customer service. Today not only will ETC provide service on every product they have ever made, they will provide service on products they inherited from a company they bought out like 15 years ago. They are CRAZY about making sure you get the support you need.

Just a quick correction. ETC has been around for more than 30 years in some form or another....

ETC Company History
 
Well we had strand dimmers (CD80's) and an ETC Express at my old high school. Loved the express (well except that it wasn't a Hog... but thats a totally different level we're talking about), Strands were fine. There was some weird issues we had, but I think that more stemmed from some sort of emergency override for the house lights (which we never discovered until my senior year when we one of the pros decided to see what was in the mysterious black box in the electrical room ;-). Needless to fay fault finding on those circuits varied from hard to impossible. Other than house lights however, the Strand (dimmers) did very well and held up with no problems during the 4 years I was there.

We had an issue once with the desk and ETC was very helpful. Originally we had a strand desk however (430), which died my Sophomore year. We don't really know what happened to it, and I never got around to troubleshooting it (there's a thread somewhere around here about that). It did come in handy to steal sub-master caps from for the Express when some of those disappeared though...
 
Well we had strand dimmers (CD80's) and an ETC Express at my old high school. Loved the express (well except that it wasn't a Hog... but thats a totally different level we're talking about), Strands were fine. There was some weird issues we had, but I think that more stemmed from some sort of emergency override for the house lights (which we never discovered until my senior year when we one of the pros decided to see what was in the mysterious black box in the electrical room ;-). Needless to fay fault finding on those circuits varied from hard to impossible. Other than house lights however, the Strand (dimmers) did very well and held up with no problems during the 4 years I was there.

We had an issue once with the desk and ETC was very helpful. Originally we had a strand desk however (430), which died my Sophomore year. We don't really know what happened to it, and I never got around to troubleshooting it (there's a thread somewhere around here about that). It did come in handy to steal sub-master caps from for the Express when some of those disappeared though...

While interesting, information about CD-80 does not really apply to a Lightrack vs. Sensor Touring Rack discussion. Lightrack is an IGBT dimmer, while Sensor is an SCR phase-control dimmer.

On this thread, I suggest we wait for people to weigh in who have actually used both of these specific products. Other information will be tangential to the question at hand.

ST
 
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...On this thread, I suggest we wait for people to weigh in who have actually used both of these specific products. Other information will be tangential to the question at hand.
The reviews on another forum from people who have used LightRack were not complimentary.
 
LekoBoy,
Please link the comments. If it's the people I suspect they are, they didn't specify 208 dimmers...and then wondered why the phasing was off. This is despite the clearly marked phasing information on the back of each module.

The debate comes down to a few simple questions:

1) How much room on the truck can the dimmers take?
2) How much can they weigh?
3) What are the loads?

If you need smaller, lighter dimmers that can accept just about any kind of load (and I mean just about any but Florescent) then it's LightRack. If you have more space on the truck or can afford a few more pounds or aren't using transformers and such then you have more to think about.

The truth of the matter is that relationships will improve service one-hundred fold. If you know who to talk to the response will be amazing. Randy Schwimmer, who posts here frequently is one of those people. Patrick Henry and Doug Pickering are also people to know about. If you have Strand gear, get to know these guys before you have an issue and you will be amazed at what they can do.

Don't underestimate the influence of your local dealer either. If you don't get a call back from them, then call one of the three guys above and let them know that. The dealer/manufacturer relationship is better or worse depending of factors that most on the outside could never understand.

If you're a touring guy, know the number of the regional manager that you are going to be in (if it's a national tour then you should know the national manager's number). Use these if you don't get the response time you need.

Lastly, and on a personal note, I busted my ass for 5 years to fix the perception that Strand doesn't care. I did. I still do. There are decisions made far beyond the scope of Randy, Patrick and Doug's pay-grade. They will work as hard as they can to help anyone out of a scrape...even self made ones.

I apologize for the wall-of-text. Not quite ship quality but I try.
 
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The debate comes down to a few simple questions:

1) How much room on the truck can the dimmers take?
2) How much can they weigh?
3) What are the loads?

Actually, evaluating these two products goes far beyond that set of questions. The debate must also include answers to these questions:

4. Do you require 2-dimmer modularity of dimmers and plug-in modular control electronics for quick-change if needed?

5. Do you require 2X the number of Socapex circuits than dimmers in the rack with up to four circuits patchable to each dimmer in an "any-circuit-to any-dimmer" arrangement?

6. Do you need a package that has proven to be physically robust?

7. Do you need high dimmer performance and proven immunity to line-borne electrical noise?

8. Do you need a wide variety of options for main breaker size, feeder connector configuration, and output connector configuration?

9. Do you need built-in compatibility with nationwide dimmer rental inventories?

10. Do you need fixed dimmer rise time that is not affected by temperature?

11. Do you need very fast guaranteed response time on cold filaments?

12. Do you need to be able to drive inductive (transformer or ballast) loads without configuration changes or concerns about dimmer damage?

13. What network protocol compatibility do you need?

14. Is a long track record of tens of thousands of channels important to you?

15. Do you need a wide variety of dimmer module types and wattages for dimming or switching many different types of loads, selectable on a per-two-dimmers basis?

16. Do you need flexibility on custom convenience outlet configurations?

17. Do you need up to 96 x 20A dimmers in a single rack?

18. Do you prefer SCR phase-control dimmers or IGBT transistorized dimmers?


ST
 
Bradykeen here's a little background to help your sort out the personal bias of some of the posters above:

Darthrob used to work for Strand. He recently had his job moved to another state without him. As I've said in the past he has every reason in the world to hate Strand but he continues to believe in their products and defend their new customer service situation record.

SteveTerry is a well known industry expert and is a high ranking person at ETC.

Jmabray works for a company that is a manufacturer's rep for several product lines including ETC.

Rschwimmer... who hasn't posted yet in this thread... Works in tech support at Strand.

While they said it with a little more passion and personal bias, it would be helpful if you told us more about how you intend to use the dimmers. What are you running with them? How much will they be moved around? Any details will help us better advise you.
 
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On this thread, I suggest we wait for people to weigh in who have actually used both of these specific products. Other information will be tangential to the question at hand.

ST


My turn:

As Mr. Terry has said in his post, we should hear from people that have USED BOTH. That would definitely be myself.

One year ago, I started working for Philip's Lighting Controls (Strand Lighting, Vari*Lite, Entertainment Technology, Lightolier Controls, and Strand*Selecon). Ten years before that I worked directly under the owner/President of Felix Lighting in Los Angeles as his Production Manager/Lighting Designer/Crew Chief.

Felix Lighting is known as a key player in one offs in the LA area. He also is known for his subrentals of a wide variety of moving lights, consoles, rigging, and dimmers. For the ten years I was there, I got VERY familiar with the ETC Sensor racks. That was all we had. 6-48 racks (touring) and 8-24 channel racks that we made custom road cases for.

Sensor racks have their pro's and their cons. I mainly knew them because that is all I had to use. The 24 racks are a great size, and can handle a 24 circuit rig perfectly if you only want dimming. The hard patching is really difficult with them if you have the socopex out one as you have to use a bunch of fan in's, and fan outs to get the patch that you are looking for. The 48's are quire large, and HELLA HEAVY. We would always have a saying that you NEVER wanted to see the fan of 48 rack because that would mean that it is off it's wheels, and you are in a heap of trouble if you don't have 4 or 5 guys to flip it. ETC Sensors are known in the touring industry as the standard, and this is a true statement. They are SCR dimmers (thats all we had anyway) and they work very well.

The main thing with me was that we would do shows that would 98.9% of the time be a mixture of moving fixtures and dimming. So you would always have to make sure you are putting the right gear on your pull sheet. If I had 24 VL-3K's and 24 circuits of dimming, I would have to either A.) Take a ML distro and a 24 channel ETC Sensor (and if I did this, I would have to 100% make sure that I had a set of camlock t's, as the 24 racks didn't have camlock thru's, and a set of 10' cam jumpers) or B.) Take a ML distro and a 48 channel ETC Sensor rack(has camlock thru's, but is MUCH MUCH larger, and weights a ton more, and takes up a lot of room on my 24' truck). So I had to make sure that I was completely aware of what kind of distro I had, all the time.

I sat down recently and started playing around with the Lightrack. I have to be honest here, and say that I really wish we would of had 4 or 6 of these in our shop. The flexibility of things that you can do with the rack is amazing. You can have a 48 circuit rack, and have 24 circuits of dimming, and 24 circuits of 208v constant for your movers. The dimming on the racks are IGBT technology. Which if you know what that is, it is fantastic stuff. Not great for rock and roll because the rise time is a little slower than the standard SCR dimmer, and we all know the road hounds that still tour with KISS and Van Halen still love their par can, and ACL, and molefay bumps to the beat of the music. If you are in a studio, ballroom, cooperate event, theater, or any other quite venue, the IGBT will blow your mind on the quietness of the dimmers, and the filaments in the fixture. The Lightrack also comes with camlock thru's on both models. The size is perfect for flipping up on top of a caddy or lowboy cam case, or even a stack of moving light cases. Only negative I could find when I was down looking through them was you are not able to do the hard patch like you can on a sensor 48 or 96 touring rack. But if you need to do that then you could do the fan in/fan out method.

That is my take on both racks. You are dealing with the two major players in dimming, so it will be up to you.

Also, I wanted to note, that since Strand Lighting has moved here in April of this year, we have really been striving to clean up the image of the bad customer support from the past. Evey one in Support Services have a company cell phone, that we will ALWAYS answer if you ever needed help. We are also in the office from 7am to 6pm CST M-F, and you can call our cells 24/7. If you ever need any of us, please see the following link: Support/Field Service Contacts | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand

Good luck with your outcome, and if you have any questions, please feel free to call me at any time.

Thanks,

Randy Schwimmer
 
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Thanks Randy. I notice the datasheet says:
LightRack modules feature dual socapex
outputs to connect quickly to your rig.
208 volt modules feature a special pin ar-
rangement
to prevent damage if you ac-
cidentally plug in 120 volt loads.
Could you list this pin-out and does this mean a user must use non-standard L6-20 break-outs?
 
Thanks Randy. I notice the datasheet says:

Could you list this pin-out and does this mean a user must use non-standard L6-20 break-outs?


[FONT=FrugalSans,Bold]
1 1-LOAD L1 A
2 2-LOAD L1 A
3 1-LOAD L2 B
4 2-LOAD L2 B
5 3-LOAD L1 B
6 4-LOAD L1 B
7 3-LOAD L2 C
8 4-LOAD L2 C
9 5-LOAD L1 C
10 6-LOAD L1 C
11 5-LOAD L2 A
12 6-LOAD L2 A
13-18 GROUND -​
19 N/C -

That is what I have for the pin out for 208v.
[/FONT]
 
An "industry-standard" 208V breakout is wired identically to the 120V version; the only thing that changes is the six line connectors, i.e.:
[FONT=FrugalSans,Bold]

Pin# Ckt# Use: Phase:
1 1-LOAD L1 A
2 1-LOAD L2 B
3 2-LOAD L1 C
4 2-LOAD L2 A
5 3-LOAD L1 B
6 3-LOAD L2 C
7 4-LOAD L1 A
8 4-LOAD L2 B
9 5-LOAD L1 C
10 5-LOAD L2 A
11 6-LOAD L1 B
12 6-LOAD L2 C
13-18 GROUND -​
19 N/C -
(Phasing may not be accurate for all distros. Some go AB,CA,BC,
[/FONT]
[FONT=FrugalSans,Bold]AB,CA,BC[/FONT][FONT=FrugalSans,Bold]... Others go AB,BC,CA,AB,BC,CA...)
[/FONT]

Not saying this is a bad thing, and the efforts to prevent sending 208V to 120V lamps should be applauded, but it's something to be aware of, should one ever need to rent or obtain additional break-outs.

I believe Christie Lights follows a similar if not identical practice, as they also have a system for mixing 120 and 208 supplies within the same rack.

From the LightRack manual referenced above:
In order to meet Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory requirements for safety, LightRack™ uses two different
19-Pin Socapex Connector pin-out configurations for 120V and 208V cable breakout assemblies. If the incorrect
breakout assembly is used, power will not circuit to the lighting grid.
 
An "industry-standard" 208V breakout is wired identically to the 120V version; the only thing that changes is the six line connectors, i.e.:
[FONT=FrugalSans,Bold]

Pin# Ckt# Use: Phase:
1 1-LOAD L1 A
2 1-LOAD L2 B
3 2-LOAD L1 C
4 2-LOAD L2 A
5 3-LOAD L1 B
6 3-LOAD L2 C
7 4-LOAD L1 A
8 4-LOAD L2 B
9 5-LOAD L1 C
10 5-LOAD L2 A
11 6-LOAD L1 B
12 6-LOAD L2 C
13-18 GROUND -​
19 N/C -
(Phasing may not be accurate for all distros. Some go AB,CA,BC,
[/FONT]
[FONT=FrugalSans,Bold]AB,CA,BC[/FONT][FONT=FrugalSans,Bold]... Others go AB,BC,CA,AB,BC,CA...)
[/FONT]

Not saying this is a bad thing, and the efforts to prevent sending 208V to 120V lamps should be applauded, but it's something to be aware of, should one ever need to rent or obtain additional break-outs.

I believe Christie Lights follows a similar if not identical practice, as they also have a system for mixing 120 and 208 supplies within the same rack.

From the LightRack manual referenced above:

I'm confused on this. If both circuits 1 and 2 are energized, don't we end up with 208V between pins 1 and 2?

ST
 

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