Going LED, need your help.
- Thread starterKBToys82
- Start date
This is what I'm thinking:
3 Elation Colour Chorus 72 to replace my 3 of my 6ft long border lights. This would be on the upstage electric for the wall and any flats we have.
6 Chauvet Professional Colorado 1-Quad Zoom Tour Par Cans. 2 each per electric on the stage left and stage right side.
4 Chauvet Professional Ovation F-95WW Fresnel. 2 On the middle and downstage electric.
I think that would give me enough lighting on stage.? Thoughts?
3 Elation Colour Chorus 72 to replace my 3 of my 6ft long border lights. This would be on the upstage electric for the wall and any flats we have.
6 Chauvet Professional Colorado 1-Quad Zoom Tour Par Cans. 2 each per electric on the stage left and stage right side.
4 Chauvet Professional Ovation F-95WW Fresnel. 2 On the middle and downstage electric.
I think that would give me enough lighting on stage.? Thoughts?
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I just measured, behind my proscenium, the stage is 29ft wide and 15 ft deep.
RickR
Well-Known Member
No, but it would be a great addition to your current (minimal) gear. Retire the strips as they match LEDs most closely and keep all the rest in operation. (Never throw away lights!)
Be prepared for sticker shock. Since this isn't your idea you won't feel it so much, but the admin certainly will. It might be your opportunity to step in with a 'reasonable and practical' move towards LEDs without trying to replace everything. Remember that energy and maintenance savings will likely not match the 1/10th the costs. (most businesses want 1/3rd for a retrofit project)
Make sure the electrical/ DMX gear needed is included in any equipment list! That should include reprogramming the architectural system! It's currently set to just do it's own dimmers, so any DMX gear has to be planned carefully to integrate with what it can do. Otherwise all the LED stuff will only respond to the console.
Converting the work lights to LED would be far less expensive and save far more money than the stage lights. Think about how many hours each is used.
Be prepared for sticker shock. Since this isn't your idea you won't feel it so much, but the admin certainly will. It might be your opportunity to step in with a 'reasonable and practical' move towards LEDs without trying to replace everything. Remember that energy and maintenance savings will likely not match the 1/10th the costs. (most businesses want 1/3rd for a retrofit project)
Make sure the electrical/ DMX gear needed is included in any equipment list! That should include reprogramming the architectural system! It's currently set to just do it's own dimmers, so any DMX gear has to be planned carefully to integrate with what it can do. Otherwise all the LED stuff will only respond to the console.
Converting the work lights to LED would be far less expensive and save far more money than the stage lights. Think about how many hours each is used.
I will be suggesting LED work lights, as they just replaced the standard architectural lights in the auditorium with LED's.
I'm trying my best to factor in the DMX and electrical cables needed, my philosophy is the more the better. I was trying to stay away from wireless DMX after another user suggested, but now since they want the stage to be included also, and since I didn't realize you had to shut off the power to the lights, even if the board isn't on, I was thinking of moving forward with the ETC Colorsource wireless relay and receivers, since they include power switching.
I'm trying my best to factor in the DMX and electrical cables needed, my philosophy is the more the better. I was trying to stay away from wireless DMX after another user suggested, but now since they want the stage to be included also, and since I didn't realize you had to shut off the power to the lights, even if the board isn't on, I was thinking of moving forward with the ETC Colorsource wireless relay and receivers, since they include power switching.
I'd avoid the Zoom pars over the stage unless you have really specific uses for them. 99% of the time you're going to be using them at a specific beam spread, and that's a whole lot of moving parts to do maintenance on. A spread lens is a lot more reliable. I've had amazing luck using the ETC D40 spread lenses in other LED fixtures.
I was reading up on the Elation Chorus's 72, and I guess you can't link any of them via PowerCON with 120v. However, if my math is correct, I can still have them plugged into the same 20 amp circuit since the maximum power output is 630W. Now I have to see if and how many of the Ovation Fresnels and Par Can's to get an idea of how many circuits are going to have to be installed to get this all to work.
As far as the Elation strips, are you sure about the power linking?
You might also consider the Philips Showline 660.
Also, as has been said in many similar threads GET A DEMO.
Which brings us back to the first post in this thread and the idea that you received bids from a couple of companies and now the powers that be want to use the bids as a shopping list to save a few bucks. That may not be to your advantage. Your local vendor can be your best friend or if you take advantage of them they may not be as quick to help you out in the future.
You might also consider the Philips Showline 660.
Also, as has been said in many similar threads GET A DEMO.
Which brings us back to the first post in this thread and the idea that you received bids from a couple of companies and now the powers that be want to use the bids as a shopping list to save a few bucks. That may not be to your advantage. Your local vendor can be your best friend or if you take advantage of them they may not be as quick to help you out in the future.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Is there a budget?
I'm trying to keep it around $50K, not including rewiring electrical power and circuits.
Not including DMX Cables, PowerCON cables, safety cables, this is what I have so far:
FOH
8 Colorsource Spot LED 26 degree
2 Colorsource Spot LED 36 degree
4 Chauvet E-190WW 26 degree
2 Chauvet E-190 WW 36 degree
Stage
4 ETC Desire D22 LUSTR+
3 Elation Colour Chorus 72
4 Chauvet Ovation F-165WW 10-54 Zoom
Control
ETC Element 40, 250 Channels
I've consulted with my local dealer (SLD Lighting in Fair Lawn) about options and this is what we worked up with. I went with the D22 over the Colorsource Par because of the longer life span.
Not including DMX Cables, PowerCON cables, safety cables, this is what I have so far:
FOH
8 Colorsource Spot LED 26 degree
2 Colorsource Spot LED 36 degree
4 Chauvet E-190WW 26 degree
2 Chauvet E-190 WW 36 degree
Stage
4 ETC Desire D22 LUSTR+
3 Elation Colour Chorus 72
4 Chauvet Ovation F-165WW 10-54 Zoom
Control
ETC Element 40, 250 Channels
I've consulted with my local dealer (SLD Lighting in Fair Lawn) about options and this is what we worked up with. I went with the D22 over the Colorsource Par because of the longer life span.
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I checked with the manual, it said 0 units with 120V.
Regarding bids, I've checked with several local companies, priced from their catalogs or website just to give an idea on the lowest estimate to the powers that be. From there, they I suspect they will be in charge of getting bids if necessary. I've also asked for training on the new board in the estimate.
Demos - I'm trying. I've seen a few of them when I went into the store. The rest, I'm hoping I can get time to visit places to see how well everything would work.
RickR
Well-Known Member
Don't get hung up on the LED life span numbers.
Think about how many hours the lights will actually get used in week/month/year. 10h/wk for 9 months is under 400 hours a year. Even a 10,000hr life would mean 25 years! My bet is that in 10 years LEDs will not only be cheaper but far better in several other ways and we'll be replacing all these 'transitional' fixtures.
Also current evidence is that the electronics will fail far earlier that the LEDs. Power supplies, bad/broken solider joints, display LCDs all are likely points of failure, and reasons to go with quality brands.
Think about how many hours the lights will actually get used in week/month/year. 10h/wk for 9 months is under 400 hours a year. Even a 10,000hr life would mean 25 years! My bet is that in 10 years LEDs will not only be cheaper but far better in several other ways and we'll be replacing all these 'transitional' fixtures.
Also current evidence is that the electronics will fail far earlier that the LEDs. Power supplies, bad/broken solider joints, display LCDs all are likely points of failure, and reasons to go with quality brands.
Final question:
I have a Lehigh DX2 Dimmer Rack. I have 32 dimmers, so I guess that means I have 16 modules. I read something about possibly being able to still use the dimmer rack, just having to convert it to non-dim? I see something in the manual about having non-dim, but I don't know if this is possible or we are just going to have to rewire a lot of electricity from a different source.
I would think that if I could use it, rather than using all 16 modules, we could significantly cut down on the number of dimmers and still power the new LED's, I would just have to get the appropriate adapters to go from Stage-pin/Twist-Lock to PowerCON.
Electricity is definitely not my forte.
I have a Lehigh DX2 Dimmer Rack. I have 32 dimmers, so I guess that means I have 16 modules. I read something about possibly being able to still use the dimmer rack, just having to convert it to non-dim? I see something in the manual about having non-dim, but I don't know if this is possible or we are just going to have to rewire a lot of electricity from a different source.
I would think that if I could use it, rather than using all 16 modules, we could significantly cut down on the number of dimmers and still power the new LED's, I would just have to get the appropriate adapters to go from Stage-pin/Twist-Lock to PowerCON.
Electricity is definitely not my forte.
Might be possible. You'd need to replace whichever circuits you want to use for the LED's with D22CB modules in the rack. Don't just set the current modules to non-dim mode, as you'll cause your new gear to die a slow death. The datasheets say that they're air-gapped relays, so you should be OK.
HOWEVER: How old is your dimmer rack? You may be able to save a few bucks now, but what if the dimmer rack goes belly-up a few years from now? The conversation will go:
You: "The dimmer rack died. I need another $30k for a new rack."
Them: "But we just gave you $50k for lighting stuff! We don't have the money now. No. Figure something else out."
This wouldn't solve your cable-mayhem problem either.
HOWEVER: How old is your dimmer rack? You may be able to save a few bucks now, but what if the dimmer rack goes belly-up a few years from now? The conversation will go:
You: "The dimmer rack died. I need another $30k for a new rack."
Them: "But we just gave you $50k for lighting stuff! We don't have the money now. No. Figure something else out."
This wouldn't solve your cable-mayhem problem either.
I just spoke with the electrician, he believes he can get the necessary 6-7 circuits I would need for the stage from a panel in the backstage area, plus the 3-4 circuits I need from the panel I showed you in the beginning of the thread for the FOH. He also said it wouldn't really be an issue installing on/off switches for each circuit in a location where it can be locked to keep people from messing around with it. If this is indeed the case, then I won't bother looking into getting the D22CB modules for the rack. Plus I can always still continue using the rack for any extra conventionals I want to use at a later date.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
Looks like you're getting a nice little package together.
I would very strongly suggest that the Desire D22s won't have the output you're looking for, but I could be wrong. I'd look at the Elation Color Chorus 12 with spread lenses (Elation offers various beam spreads of spread lenses as well). They're a great downlight solution with a ton of output, and with the amber you can mix decent whites. Just because they're not a round fixture doesn't mean they can't be downlight. This would also reduce the number of different color mixing systems you have (different fixtures that color mix), which I'm always all for. It's easier to program because you have fewer fixture types to make color presets for.
With regards to the Color Chorus 72s and power linking: you can indeed plug 3 in to a 20A circuit, however you cannot link them because the internal wiring for the powercon linking is only 16 AWG. I think this is pretty ridiculous value engineering on Elation's part on something so trivial and I'd gladly pay another few bucks per unit just to be able to power link 3 at 120V. The internal wiring really should be 12 AWG.
I can say though that a shop I work for bought 200 linear feet of Color Chorus this year in 2', 4', and 6' lengths, and it's absolutely fantastic, especially for the price. I've had them on a few shows so far and have nothing but good things to say.
I would very strongly suggest that the Desire D22s won't have the output you're looking for, but I could be wrong. I'd look at the Elation Color Chorus 12 with spread lenses (Elation offers various beam spreads of spread lenses as well). They're a great downlight solution with a ton of output, and with the amber you can mix decent whites. Just because they're not a round fixture doesn't mean they can't be downlight. This would also reduce the number of different color mixing systems you have (different fixtures that color mix), which I'm always all for. It's easier to program because you have fewer fixture types to make color presets for.
With regards to the Color Chorus 72s and power linking: you can indeed plug 3 in to a 20A circuit, however you cannot link them because the internal wiring for the powercon linking is only 16 AWG. I think this is pretty ridiculous value engineering on Elation's part on something so trivial and I'd gladly pay another few bucks per unit just to be able to power link 3 at 120V. The internal wiring really should be 12 AWG.
I can say though that a shop I work for bought 200 linear feet of Color Chorus this year in 2', 4', and 6' lengths, and it's absolutely fantastic, especially for the price. I've had them on a few shows so far and have nothing but good things to say.
I forgot to ask, how would you go about reprogramming the architectural system? Currently it is hooked up directly into the dimmer rack. It's not like we currently use the one we have right now, but I would like to put it out there to the administration about possibly either moving the wall unit to backstage or maybe getting another one so that anyone who just needs to turn on the house lights or only needs the white fixtures for concerts can do so easily. We have the Lehigh CPM306, which can only control 36 channels, so if I use it, all the white fixtures would get assigned low DMX addresses so that it could still be used.
