Going LED, need your help.

[KBToys82]

First off, I'm not a lighting expert in any fashion, what I know, I'm mostly self taught. Anyway...

My district is going to renovate the auditorium, and they want to start converting our lights to LED. We would do this in phases, with the main phase happening this summer. We have 10 Source Four Lekos's that are in our balcony which is directly in front of our control room. Even amount of 50 degrees and 26 degrees. (I'm not sure if they also want to update our 6 that are in a cove above the seats.)

The district was originally going to go through a company to do everything, however they figure they can save a lot of money, price everything on their own (really myself with your help) and install it themselves.

From what I gather, the company they originally brought in was going to take our Source 4's and retrofit the base to LED. Currently, all of the fixtures in the balcony are powered by stage pin cables coming from a mess of wires hanging out of the control room window. The 6 in the cove are by twist lock.

What I want to do is try and give two options, one being retrofitting all 10 Source 4 fixtures to go to LED, and the other is buying 10 brand new LED fixtures. Money is not unlimited, but the business administrator did suggest just replacing every fixture, but I wouldn't go crazy with money.

From what I gather, if I get brand new fixtures, the ETC ColorSource Spot LED Ellipsoidal - that will require a DMX splitter, PowerCON cables (and giving power to them as well, which I have no idea) and DMX cables. For the retrofitting, I think we could still use our stage-pin connectors and wouldn't require any DMX cables or powerCON cables. We have a very qualified electrician in our district who has done some work with our fixtures, so I'm not concerned with installation, but I would need to know what to order.

As a side note - although there is no current 120v outlets in the balcony area, we do have a circuit breaker in the control room with plenty of room for expansion so supplying power to the fixtures hopefully really wouldn't be too much of an issue if I needed PowerCON.

Tomorrow I will try to take pictures for a better idea of what we currently have.

 

[BobHealey]

What console do you have? That may impose some constraints on any options you persue. Also, will the existing dimmers be kept or removed, and what are they? A rack system, or various small 4-6 channel units?

Most of the native LEDs can be daisy chained on the power up to a number in the manual (varies by brand and model). So you'd only need 1-3 something -> powercons adapters and then just short powercon -> powercon jumpers. Same with DMX, you can have 31 devices after the last active splitter or the board, so depending on what you have for a board, and how you are currently cabled, you might not need any active splitters.

As much as I don't like it, since the stage pin circuits and the twist circuits are dimmed, I would personally use Edison for the LED power if going with DMX controlled units. If its not the same connector as the dimmed outlets, less chance of an accidental cross-connect, assuming you are not getting rid of all your dimmers.

Assuming the plan is to trash the halogen Source 4s if you go LED, the DMX controlled Altman and ETC offerings can use the existing lens tubes, so you can save a bit of money there.

I'm just an amateur community theater type so feel free to tell me to be quiet and butt out, but it feels to me that you might be in a little over your head on this project.

 

[KBToys82]

We are going to be getting an ETC Element 40, 250 channels with the upgrade.

Also, it is a rack system that still will be used since as of now, we are only updating our FOH lighting. Our stage lighting is not going to be touched for the time being. The board uses 5-pin DMX to control the rack system, and the outlet is not far from the window to the balcony so I have an idea where I would put the splitter so I can go from the board and split out to the FOH LED's and also to the existing rack structure.

I will admit that I am slightly over my head in the project. I do know about daisy chaining DMX and PowerCON cables to units, and that there is a limit on how many units can be daisy chained in regards to power, and I do know that while I can still use the stage pin connectors if we retrofit the Source 4's with the 4wrd, DMX dimming will always be preferential to AC line dimming. Since you can have 9 Colorsource Spot fixtures connected with the PowerCON thru, I would just split them up and have 5 and 5. I also know about getting a DMX terminator on the end of the chain.

What I don't know, is where do PowerCON cables get plugged into, and the requirements needed.

I've also read about the 4wrd's issues as well as the significant back-order, which also leads me to think that they may just toss the current fixtures out and get brand new LED's fixtures without worrying about retrofitting the old ones. If that does happen, I would keep a few for spares for our stage lighting, and sell the rest. And that the 4wrd does not use 3 or 5 pin XLR DMX but rather RJ45 connections.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I have to say I'm always taken aback when projects such as this are undertaken with no expertise, in-house or outside. Good luck.

 

[KBToys82]

After doing more reading to confirm what I thought, since I really didn't want to sound like a complete idiot, from what I see, they do make and sell PowerCON to edison plug adapters, which obviously sounds easy enough if I was to replace the fixtures with the Colorsource Spot. So, if that is all I need, then I would just need outlets installed where my lighting trees are and daisy chain the tree together, then I just have to send it DMX from my splitter.

I'm starting to lean towards asking for outlets at the lighting trees anyway, this way with the Source 4wrd, I can have the plug be Edison plugs supplying it with constant power, and use DMX dimming rather than the existing stage-pin.

 

[derekleffew]

... they do make and sell PowerCON to edison plug adapters, ...

They do, but you want the opposite. Adapter s are always specified MALE end first. Thus you want one Edison to PowerCon adapter for the fist unit, then PowerCon-PowerCon jumpers between the fixtures.

The next question to ask yourself is whether you must have color mixing, or if white only would suffice. Major cost difference and many of the white units offer mains dimming or DMX dimming. I wouldn't count on the ETC 4WRD retrofit being available any time soon. You might also look at Chauvet Ovation ellipsoidals.

 

[KBToys82]

My 3rd option that I think I may submit was to have some retrofits as well as Colorsource so I could have white lighting for non-theatrical events such as board meetings and award assemblies.

 

[cbrandt]

As a side note to the main conversation, don't just throw out your old lights! Keep them around for large productions, sell them some where, or donate to a smaller program. Especially since it sounds like they are true ETC S4 units, as opposed to something significantly older. Depending on the rules in your organization, that might be used to offset some of the cost of the fixtures you're looking to purchase.

 

[JohnD]

Eagerly awaiting photos. Lots of questions.
No. 1, WHY, what are you trying to accomplish with the change to LED. If it is just power savings, the ROI is a long way down the road. It's great that your district wants to invest in this, but you really need to define what you want from this upgrade.
How are the current S4s lamped, if 750 watt you may be disappointed with the results with a Colorsource spot.
How far is the throw from your balcony position to the stage, 50 degree lens tubes seem very wide for this.
The Colorsource spot and most other LED ERS ship with a cable, so you already have one cable from your outlet to the fixture.
I cringe when I think of the "mess of cables out the control room window". This reeks of the "duct tape and baling wire" school of engineering.
You mention you have a circuit breaker (panel?) in your booth with extra space. Just because there is room for more breakers doesn't mean you have enough power to the panel, ask your electrician.
You also need a way to turn off power to the constant power circuits, turning off the breakers isn't the best way to go. The Colorsource wired relay seems to be a good solution to this.
The Colorsource spot is also available as a light engine body only, which means you can use the lens tubes and shutter barrel from your current units to save some money.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Eagerly awaiting photos. Lots of questions.
No. 1, WHY, what are you trying to accomplish with the change to LED. If it is just power savings, the ROI is a long way down the road. It's great that your district wants to invest in this, but you really need to define what you want from this upgrade.
How are the current S4s lamped, if 750 watt you may be disappointed with the results with a Colorsource spot.
How far is the throw from your balcony position to the stage, 50 degree lens tubes seem very wide for this.
The Colorsource spot and most other LED ERS ship with a cable, so you already have one cable from your outlet to the fixture.
I cringe when I think of the "mess of cables out the control room window". This reeks of the "duct tape and baling wire" school of engineering.
You mention you have a circuit breaker (panel?) in your booth with extra space. Just because there is room for more breakers doesn't mean you have enough power to the panel, ask your electrician.
You also need a way to turn off power to the constant power circuits, turning off the breakers isn't the best way to go. The Colorsource wired relay seems to be a good solution to this.
The Colorsource spot is also available as a light engine body only, which means you can use the lens tubes and shutter barrel from your current units to save some money.

QED

 

[KBToys82]

Eagerly awaiting photos. Lots of questions.
No. 1, WHY, what are you trying to accomplish with the change to LED. If it is just power savings, the ROI is a long way down the road. It's great that your district wants to invest in this, but you really need to define what you want from this upgrade.
How are the current S4s lamped, if 750 watt you may be disappointed with the results with a Colorsource spot.
How far is the throw from your balcony position to the stage, 50 degree lens tubes seem very wide for this.
The Colorsource spot and most other LED ERS ship with a cable, so you already have one cable from your outlet to the fixture.
I cringe when I think of the "mess of cables out the control room window". This reeks of the "duct tape and baling wire" school of engineering.
You mention you have a circuit breaker (panel?) in your booth with extra space. Just because there is room for more breakers doesn't mean you have enough power to the panel, ask your electrician.
You also need a way to turn off power to the constant power circuits, turning off the breakers isn't the best way to go. The Colorsource wired relay seems to be a good solution to this.
The Colorsource spot is also available as a light engine body only, which means you can use the lens tubes and shutter barrel from your current units to save some money.

To answer your questions first:
The why is - because that's what administration wants. My guess is that they want new fixtures and see LED as the new modern and want that. I'm not complaining, I think in the long run, moving over to LED will be helpful for show design and we are currently maxed out on our dimmers and they have no desire to add on. I myself am going to try to keep some of the conventionals because as far as I am aware, the dimmer rack isn't going anywhere, so I think to supplement what we have with new fixtures and a new console will be great in the long run.

The last I looked, I would say about 4 of them currently have X long lasting 575 watt lamps and the rest are 750 x long lasting lamps. I understand that the color source is more in line with the 575 watt fixtures I use.

In regards to the circuit breaker, I remember overhearing that when the company was going to come in, they were going to use the circuit breaker we have in the control room, and I was talking to someone who knows our system and he said he wants to use it.

Question: if I was to go for the Colorsource Wired Relay, or the Wireless transmitter/receiver, I would have an edison cable to PowerCON adapter to power the unit, then I can go from the switched power output to supply power to the rest of the fixtures in that group or am I making something easier than it really is? If this is the case, that would be perfect for when they eventually move over to LED's above the stage, since I would already have the wireless capability (if I go for the wireless transmitter of course).

 

[KBToys82]

IMG_1481

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

Circuit panel, next to the windowless window.

IMG_1482

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

Current light board

IMG_1483

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

This panel supplies the power via stage pin's to our 10 Source 4's. Directly underneath is an architectural system.

IMG_1484

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

Dimmer rack

IMG_1485

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

Side view of balcony lights.

IMG_1486

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

Wiring coming out of the panel through the window.

IMG_1487

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

Mess of wires just laying on the ground.

IMG_1488

• KBToys82
• Jun 10, 2016

This is a 26 degree fixture that I have on.

The 50 degrees basically light the entire width of the stage. I do have a couple of iris's to help reduce the beam.

 

[JohnD]

The pictures help a great deal.
Is the cove only reachable from below or is there a catwalk up there?
Yep, the wiring is a mess, especially the cables on the floor and steps.

 

[KBToys82]

Accessible only via genie lift.


What I think I'm going to suggest once I know for certain that they would rather replace all the lights with LED's over retrofitting the existing source 4's, is 10 Colorsource LED's with varying lens sizes, getting a DMX splitter, installing 3 power outlets into the balcony cove area (each having it's own circuit), getting the Colorsource Wireless Transmitter and Receiver along with the accompanying connectors and adapters needed. I will keep a couple of the old fixtures and sell the rest if the district allows that.

If they want to retrofit and wait a couple of months because of the 4wrds issues and eventual backorder, then I would still get the DMX splitter, Colorsource Transmitter and Receiver and cables and adapters, since it would be better to dim with DMX rather than the existing stage pins.

All of this on top of having to get the Element 40, 250.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I think the Colorsource Spot in white is less than half the S4 at 750. Maybe nearer a third. In airport but may check tomorrow .

A better first step to LED is definitely back drop followed by overhead before fronts for lots of reasons.

 

[KBToys82]

Which I'm sure is accurate, however I'm just doing what the people in charge tell me what to do. I'm not sure if a company will be doing the stage lights while we do this ourselves or they scrapped the company all-together. With 10 fixtures in the back, and another 6 in the cove, I'm not overly concerned with what the drop in white is going to end up being, and I know that it won't be a true white, so I'm going to do some research on getting 2 Chauvet Ovation E-190WW LED's to add on to the order.

 

[BobHealey]

Make sure your stands can take the additional weight of Colorsource units. They're 17 lbs without lens or clamp each vs 14 lbs for a complete (lens + clamp) halogen unit.

 

[MikeJ]

First off the breaker panel you posted is pretty small, it's definitely a sub-panel. There is probably a main breaker for it in another large panel somewhere else in the theater, so you will want to double check that you have the capacity.

Also it's an old Federal Pacific Stab Lok panel, known for starting fires. I would ask you electrician about the possibility of replacing it with a Square D panel or similar. Hopefully because this is building infrastructure issue, you can get the school to pay for it out of a different fund than your lights. This is not something to HAVE to do, I just don't like seeing those old crappy panels. My feeling is if I'm going to upgrade something, I don't want to do it half-assed.

In your cove positions that are only accessible by lift, you might want want to consider a color mixing fixture, and getting the white version for you front position. The white versions of any LED leko are brighter than their color mixing counterparts, so you might be happier with the over all light output you can get from this combo, but still have the ability to add some color from the cove whenever you want, without having to get out a lift. And you can always gel the white ones on your front position.

Chauvet makes a version that can run on dimming as well, the also just released a 750w equivalent white LED fixture.

 

[MikeJ]

Also, for a lighting system I would avoid anything wireless if you can get hardwired control. There is no need to invite the possibility of interference, especially with how crowded the RF spectrum is becoming, and its only getting worse.

 

[KBToys82]

Make sure your stands can take the additional weight of Colorsource units. They're 17 lbs without lens or clamp each vs 14 lbs for a complete (lens + clamp) halogen unit.

Thank you for the heads up. I'm sure the 2 outer ones will handle the extra load with no issue, but I will look into the center one, as I hope to put 2 additional units on.