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Lamping 360Q to keep pace with S4s?

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Charc, Aug 23, 2007.

  1. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    I suppose this question specifically goes to Ship, but that shouldn't discourage anyone else from posting.

    My understanding is that when lamping 360Qs there are a variety of options to consider. My question is, what would be the best way to lamp 360Qs to keep pace wit S4, or is it more a matter of cost? Or is it, no matter how you lamp it, the color temperature / punch will be about the same? Or am I completely wrong, and there is only one option?

    I'm thinking primarily about my school's inventory (A collection of older altmans 360Qs, and is there such thing as a 360, presumably, before the Quartz? I know we have some radial ERSs, but I've phased, I think, all of them off the mainstage, and into the assembly room.

    Any thoughts on what we should do, next time we order lamps?
     
  2. Grog12

    Grog12 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    1st thing 1st. Bench focus the 360Q's. You can lamp them with FEL's but its not recommended. Honestly don't do combined washes where you mix the two instruments if you can help it and you won't have that much of an issue.
     
  3. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    Well, if you do a little searching by lamp codes you will come up with the info you are seeking. Also, as a matter of fact, in one of ship's posts in the thread on fixing up old 360Qs he mentions suitable lamps. The recommendations are the HPR, a 575W lamp which has an internal reflector and is supposed to be one of the most efficient lamps for this type of fixture (though I can't speak to that first hand). Also in the 575W category you have the GLA (HX-605) and GLC (HX-604). The GLA is the long life version while the GLC is the high output version. Then, if you want to step it up to the 750W world you have the GLE (HX-755) and GLD (HX-754). The GLE being the long life and the GLD being the high output.
     
  4. BillESC

    BillESC Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    The brightest lamp recommended for use in a 360Q is the HX604 with a rated lumen output of 16500.
     
  5. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I'm pretty sure I killed our inventory of 6x22s... in my defense their irises and shutters were already trashed...

    I don't have the exact codes/names with me now, but we have 750 watt bi-pin and 1000 bi-pin lamps. I was told (before my CB days, again in my defense), "use the 750s on the small ones, and the 1000s on the big ones". My understanding now is that 360Qs are not to be lamped above 750 watts, as they weren't designed for the heat of a 1000 watt lamp. Am I correct in my new understanding? Should I take our 6x22s out of the air ASAP and check their wattages? The shutters on most of our inventory are completely warped/melted/mangled, as well as a fair chunk of our gobo collection. (I've also found the wrong sized shutters in some of our instruments. But we're stretched too thin for me to do anything about it.)

    Thoughts?

    Thanks for the replies,
    Charlie
     
  6. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    I found this post here, so ship won't have to repeat himself:

    So the HPR is a high output lamp? Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure our dept. head with frown upon have to replace this lamp six times as often as a long life lamp.

    Edit: Continuing to read that post, it looks like ship recommends the GLA, but I'm getting bogged down by his writing style.
    GLA - 1500 hrs, good balance of cost and punch?
    HPR - 300 hrs, internal reflector, very nice, puts S4 to shame, coming from a 30 year old instrument?
    HX400/1 - "good lamp"?

    Unfortunately I'm going out the door to dinner, so I had to read that quickly, so I think I've missed part of that. One of the things I'm sure I missed, the difference between 115/120 volt lamps. Is there a difference? I've always assumed we had 120 volts, can you run 115 at 120, and 120 at 115?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2007
  7. squigish

    squigish Member

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    The quick answer is that yes, you can run 115V lamps at 120V, and 120V lamps at 115V, but not without a cost.

    You probably don't actually have 120 volts. There's always going to be some voltage drop due to the resistance of the wiring carrying power from the transformer to the dimmer to the fixture.
    As far as the difference between 115 and 120 volt lamps, it has to do with resistance. A 115V, 1000W lamp means that it will use 1000W of power at 115 volts. However, if you apply 120 volts to it, the current (and wattage) will go up. In this case, the lamp uses 1000W of power at 115V, which means it pulls 8.69565A (W=V*A). This means that it has a resistance of 13.225 Ohms (Resistance=Voltage/Amperage).
    So, if you take that same 13.225 Ohm lamp and apply 120V, the current will be 9.07372A (A=V/R), which, at 120V, translates to 1089W. So now your overvolted 1000W lamp is pulling more than a 1000W. This will result in a brighter lamp, with a higher color temperature, and shorter life. Running a 120V lamp at 115V results in a similar change, only in the opposite direction. So the decision to make when buying lamps really has to do with whether you're going for longer life or brighter and higher color temp.
     
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Agreed, that discussion is much better than ask/answer.

    Been chatting a lot over the years with various lamp manufacturers up to the head of photo optics level in lamps with them. Be assured that developments are under way both on the HPL and other lines of lamps, also that all brands have individual unique lamp concepts well under way coming soon. They tend to get earfulls from me once contacted - as if I would be any different in person.

    Evidence of development is that while many manufacturers count the months or years until the patent runs out on the HPL, an upgrade for it is TBA and under development, this much less that the ANSI code GLD, which is a Thorn/GE HX-754 and Philips #6981P are while very similar in style, yet unique to themselves out of separate development. The GLC - Thorn/GE HX-603 or Osram HPR 575/115 are also very unique developments also, that in addition to what Ushio also comes up with and to market first or at times unique on. Just got instock two upgrade 1.2Kw FEL lamps for a Altman 1000Q follow spot on my desk. TBA what this most powerful lamp will do in the fixture - unique to Ushio only lamp as with the 800w ray light lamp that caught quite a few other suppliers by surprise given they assumed that a 600w DYS ray light lamp was the tops.

    In discussion, even the concept of radial Leko lamps upgraded to 575w/115v standards has been discussed - but realistically one won’t see such a lamp - too small a market for the upgrade. The 120v upgrade EGE won’t get discontinued, but won’t get better than that due to fixture efficiency. If one really wants to get beyond that, jack up the lamp base and retro fit it for a axial say GLC lamp type.

    Overall, depends upon the wattage of the S-4's and the application, much less lamp life verses high output intent. As always the HPR 575/115v keeps up if not out punches a HPL 575/115w/C lamp for general output. A GLC might be sufficient or probably will not be equal in pattern projection. For 750w, in high output, the #6981P is the best lamp out there but I have never tested in comparison. IN long life, the 575w Phillips GLA is best, and 575w GE GLE is best you can do and often sufficient enough though not S-4 I suppose.

    Treat the fixtures as paint brushes and or number your priorities in color and use. Designate what’s most needed and important first, than relegate say for an amber wash of light from one direction, do I really need the higher color temperature? Could do this with say a EHD lamp instead and save more money yet. Even for a show when a whole series of lamps won’t get beyond say 60% lamp them with HX-400 or HPL 375 lamps. This much less the EHD. Correct color temperature and wattage/voltage in addition to the fixture type. Apply what works for a use to the situation over just one standard fixture. Get the feel for different efficiencies and flavors of fixtures and you master some element of the art. This especially once the 360's are mixed into the painting pallet and one sees what they do for your art as a brush stroke across the stage picture.

    Wanting to make a fixture appear to be another fixture is one thing. Using a fixture for what it is as a paint brush another thing. This beyond using a fixture for what it can be as a completely different thing once lamped differently. Art with the fixtures you have - this both with how they are now and how they change when you change the lamps. Same way as a S-4 lamped with a 575w lamp is different than a S-4 with 750w lamp, you have lots to paint with.
     
  9. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    Ship, I completely understand where you are coming from with the art aspect. But I have to disagree with this, that, in my circumstances, the art in different lamp options is completely irrelevant. I'm sure Gaff, as a high school teacher will agree with me. When you have junior techs running around, different instructions from multiple people, and a complete personnel turn over every 4 years, trying to put multiple brushes in the mix is a mistake. Maybe I'll get too much flak for this, but someone has to see my reasoning. I honestly believe, that trying to maintain a consistent base inventory is going to be the key to the longevity of our lighting program (a program of me, with no one behind me to train). I do completely understand your point in not trying to make a 360Q do something it wasn't designed to. Perhaps my question should revert to, what's the best lamping option. Back to my caveat, trying to differentiate between an inventory of already old worn down 360Qs, in need of much lovin', lamped differently would be a logistical nightmare. My prediction, shortly after I leave, such a system would be completely broken down. In the end, the 360Qs would be treated as all equal, leaving a patchy painting, and having certain instruments just not "do" what they were "supposed to". To that ends, it seems like "the best" lamp should be found for our, and similar, high school program. Which should be phased in, and exclusively reordered. While I'd love the chance to use a variety of "brushes", it just doesn't seem to me to be in the best interests of the program. An experience better left till college. (Though in a way I already have a wide array of "brushes", as each instrument is different, a chipped lens here, an uneven field there; oh well.) (I'd bench focus them all and clean them and perform any other maintenance necessary, but I neither have the time (grades are important junior year!), nor the technical know how. I've read countless threads on it. But I'm still sure I've got it wrong, and though I hate to neglect the inventory anymore, without a flesh and blood teacher, it's gonna stay that way.)
     
  10. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Certainly I understand your position in dummying down the pallet - yet you still wouldn’t accept a Fresnel hung in place of a Leko would you? At some point it’s education and instruction that plays a role. This much less prior planning prevents piss poor performance. Pre-mark the fixtures say one to 30 on a pipe to be hung and do the training.

    Still though I see your point in my ideal of paint brush verses barbarians in the wire. Base system to instruct from is totally valid, just a question of how large that base is verses how much instruction and training is needed to widen that base to a wider base. Still, I would not expect anything other than support an no flack for your very balanced opinion.

    Best lamp overall, the Phillips GLA 575/115v lamp. Any help in what I would use as the most cost effective lamp bar none in efficient verses output balance in a theater situation? This by price balanced by what other makers of the GLA have to offer in a cost effective price.
     
  11. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    What ship said.

    But to some of your questions I don't think have been answered:

    The 1000w and 750w lamps you have are most likely FEL and EHG(maybe EHF). The Altman 360Q Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlight is UL Listed for 750w maximum. That being said, every lighting shop in the US would typically lamp 6x22s and 6x16s at 1Kw using the FEL. Long-throw fixtures need high-wattage lamps and generally there's lots of volume inside and surface area outside to dissipate the additional heat generated. But be aware you are violating Underwriters Laboratories' recommendations. These are the same people who require hair dryers to have labels on them saying "Do not use in shower." But ask a lawyer what would happen if one of your 360Q's with a 1000w lamp starts a fire.

    Although many including myself have done it, I would strongly advise AGAINST putting an FEL in a 6x12, 6x9, or 4 1/2 x 6 1/2. The result will be burned shutters and reflectors, and cracked lenses.

    I like the GLA 575w as a replacement for FEL and EHG lamps. Until you get all 360Qs using the same lamp, you'll have issues with color temperature and intensity variations, but these can be over come.

    History Lesson: 1969? Altman 360 series was the "radial" burn base up fixture. Basically a copy of the same fixture that Charles LEvy and Edward KOok developed for Century Lighting in the 1930s. Used incandescent 250w, 500w, or 750w lamps. My favorite was the "750T12/9." Quartz or T-H (Tungsten-Halogen) lamps had not been invented, once they were (mid-1970s), and could burn in any orientation, the radial became the Quartz, the lamp now went through the back center of the reflector, optics and performance were improved, and there was great joy in Whoville. Thus the 360Q.

    Your burned up iris and shutter issues may be related to using 1000w lamps, but could also be due to using the wrong fixture in the wrong location. Eons ago, my high school had 6x9 Century LEKOs (radials) in the FOH catwalk, about 40' to the stage. We had to push the top and bottom shutters in almost all the way to get off the ceiling and audience. Heat wasn't a problem, as we were using 750T12/9s and that fixture had flexible, stainless steel shutters. It was all we had, but it was still the wrong light for that throw distance.

    Shameless teaser: watch for a new "Lighting Calculator" coming soon to a Lighting Forum near you. Film at 11.

    The 360Q's performance will never match the Source4 primarily due to the dichroic glass reflector and "4source" HPL Source4 lamp. But with a more efficient, lower-wattage lamp you keep the earth greener and lower your school's electric bills and spend less of my tax dollars.

    One more rant: Don't use expensive stage lamps to provide worklight. I see this done all the time. Get some 500w T-3 floods and place them in appropriate locations. Unpatch the stage lights and plug in the worklights
    or whatever you have to do to keep unauthorized personnel from burning up your stage lamps and gels. But I understand others may use the theatre/auditorium and they need light too. End of rant.

    Bonus points for defining "double-flatted reflector" and detailing its benefits. Skip, gaff, icewolf, not eligible. Under age 25 only please. A waist is a terrible thing to mind.
     
  12. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    Private school, only thing I'm wasting is my tuition...
     
  13. STEVETERRY

    STEVETERRY Well-Known Member

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    An interesting discussion.

    However, "keeping pace with Source Four (tm)" via lamp choice might be difficult.

    What did Source Four do for our industry?

    1. 1000W output with 575W, and with a flat field.
    2. Cold Gate--allowing use of glass gobos or keeping steel gobos forever, and shutter life of many years rather than a few months.
    3. Precise optics
    4. Rotating barrel
    5. Smaller size

    While capital money is scarce, it might pay to look at the overall cost of operation of an ERS. Perhaps the payback on just power consumption of a S4 over 360Q is actually quite short. In 2007, Green is Good.

    Forget for a moment that I currently work for ETC. I will relate my experience at Production Arts during the intro of S4 in 1992:

    We replaced almost 10,000 360Q's with S4's in rental stock during a period of 2 years. That was nearly $2 million that we were "forced" to spend by the appearance of the S4.

    Why?

    The market demanded it. To quote my friend Gary Fails of City Theatrical:

    "The Good drives out The Bad".

    ST
     
  14. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    And do you know what happened to the 10,000 360Qs...?

    Hint: they ended up in high schools, and underfunded programs. (At least that is my understanding of how we came upon the majority of our inventory. A rental/retail company was either getting rid of stock, or went belly up. Regardless, it was 360Qs, at dirt cheap prices. I mean we're thrilled, we have lights. And industry standard lights too... from pre 1992.)

    Overall cost of replacement of inventory?...

    We'd probably need about 125 bodies, probably 150 lens tubes. Definitely some of the expensive 5º and 10ºs, a well as some of the 70ºs and 90ºs. Of course: 150 lamps (25 spares), and 125 professionally installed stage pins. Not to mention we would throw away all our accessories. 7.5" is a little big for a S4.

    Yep, that just about comes in at 125 bodies, 150 lens tubes, 150 lamps, and 125 SPC plugs over budget.

    Much though I'd love to replace the inventory, we'd run over budget, even if we spent every cent the drama department has, for the year, for everything.

    (Steve, I fear this post may take too much of a satirical tone, which was not my intention.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  15. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    What's an SPC plug? Is it the same as a German Shorthaired Pointer connector? I call it a stage pin. Shops here call it a 2P&G.

    http://www.citytheatrical.com/ makes a great adapter allowing use of 7.5" accsories with 6.25" fixtures.

    http://www.usedlighting.com/products/fixtures/?id=148 and http://www.prg.com/used both sell used Source4s. Maybe try to buy the 5°, 10°, 70°, and 90°, none of which you have now, and replace the 360Qs later. As I said before, there's nothing wrong with the 360Q with a 575w lamp--it was the standard for 30 years. Not as good as the Source4, but certainly serviceable.
     
  16. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Did the math at one point between the HPL and FEL lamp, it's more like a 800w lamp not a 1,000w lamp. More a question of greater fixture efficiency, filament efficiency and most percievable - color temperature difference than a 575w lamp having the output of a 1,000w lamp.
     
  17. STEVETERRY

    STEVETERRY Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely--the output of the S4 does not come from just the lumens off the filament, but the efficiency of the lamp/reflector/lens system, Nevertheless, with a 575W lamp, that system produces roughly the same field lumens (with a bit higher color temperature) as a 1000W FEL in a 360Q.

    ST
     
  18. avkid

    avkid Not a New User Fight Leukemia

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    And electricity.
    Which is expensive.
     
  19. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    Right, but doesn't the school pay for it? And I pay the school with my tuition?

    We're in the process of building a new science building. It's a green building, geo thermal wells, solar panels, eco friendly materials, water recycling, designed for maximum energy efficiency, etc.; the whole 9 yards.
     
  20. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    One thing your school should try doing is a fixture replacement plan that spans over a period of a few years in which during each year you buy a few (say 6 to 12) new fixtures and rotate the inventory to where those new fixtures are needed most and use the old fixtures else where. This is more cost effective since you aren't dumping a pay load of money on fixtures only in one year.
     

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