Wow! You have introduced a slew of variables that makes this a scary endeaver. It's fine if they have inhouse engineers but you need an industry professional to look at it, and I mean look at it. That roof needs to be able to move up and down according to weather.
LED lighting, I'm the DUMMIE!!
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Chauvet makes a Colorado line of LED that are IP 66 rated (outdoor) that work well. The price isn't bad either. I've install hundreds of the Colorado I & 3 with great success. I know the product line has changed some over the last year or so but think they are still available.
PLASA developed a couple of ANSI standards that may be applicable, E1.21 - 2006 for temporary outdoor structures for entertainment and E1.2 - 2000 for truss used in entertainment applications. These will be important documents for the engineers and they may not know about them if they are not typically involved in the entertainment industry. They contain the wisdom of many people with many years of experience on how to engineer such items. Knowing next to nothing about the project, I can't say if the documents will apply or not, but it sounds like they may.
Codes in various areas differ and they may or may not be required by local code to comply with ANSI, but "the industry" strongly recommends they do. In the event of an accident, and clearly after this summer accidents do happen, not being compliant with an applicable standard could make a bad situation very very bad.
The documents can be purchased from PLASA.org or direct from ANSI.
PLASA developed a couple of ANSI standards that may be applicable, E1.21 - 2006 for temporary outdoor structures for entertainment and E1.2 - 2000 for truss used in entertainment applications. These will be important documents for the engineers and they may not know about them if they are not typically involved in the entertainment industry. They contain the wisdom of many people with many years of experience on how to engineer such items. Knowing next to nothing about the project, I can't say if the documents will apply or not, but it sounds like they may.
Codes in various areas differ and they may or may not be required by local code to comply with ANSI, but "the industry" strongly recommends they do. In the event of an accident, and clearly after this summer accidents do happen, not being compliant with an applicable standard could make a bad situation very very bad.
The documents can be purchased from PLASA.org or direct from ANSI.
Re: Stage Dimensions
BTW: Good luck on your search... see if you can demo boards and lights before you buy. Plus, in addition to previous comments, there are also DMX relay packs that are wireless. You could set a transmitter at the board location and the DMX signal can go to each truss independently. All the signals will route as if you've wired it.
BTW: Good luck on your search... see if you can demo boards and lights before you buy. Plus, in addition to previous comments, there are also DMX relay packs that are wireless. You could set a transmitter at the board location and the DMX signal can go to each truss independently. All the signals will route as if you've wired it.
postmaster
Member
Re: Stage Dimensions
Thanks for the wireless tip, had no idea they had a wireless system.
Thanks for the wireless tip, had no idea they had a wireless system.
BTW: Good luck on your search... see if you can demo boards and lights before you buy. Plus, in addition to previous comments, there are also DMX relay packs that are wireless. You could set a transmitter at the board location and the DMX signal can go to each truss independently. All the signals will route as if you've wired it.
So now that we are getting a real sense of the scale of this project. I think it's VERY foolish to not have the assistance of a theater consultant and a rigging expert. I think most of us were thinking you were talking about hanging a few LED's in a small club. Nothing on this scale.
The most dangerous theatrical situations we commonly see happen because someone thinks they know what they are doing and doesn't. It's amazing how many people fall to their death each year doing flying special effects that they "know are safe" because someone is a rock climbing expert... not a theatrical flight expert. Your boss may have a shop full of amazing engineers but if they aren't rigging experts they don't understand all the potential dangers. I suggest you contact Jay Glerum or Bill Sapsis immediately. They are THE two top rigging experts in the industry. They can either help you or get you in touch with someone in your area that can be trusted.
Do you plan for touring acts being able use the space? If yes then you should think about only purchasing equipment that is standard in a touring rider. Much of what has been discussed so far would not be excepted by a concert tour.
The most dangerous theatrical situations we commonly see happen because someone thinks they know what they are doing and doesn't. It's amazing how many people fall to their death each year doing flying special effects that they "know are safe" because someone is a rock climbing expert... not a theatrical flight expert. Your boss may have a shop full of amazing engineers but if they aren't rigging experts they don't understand all the potential dangers. I suggest you contact Jay Glerum or Bill Sapsis immediately. They are THE two top rigging experts in the industry. They can either help you or get you in touch with someone in your area that can be trusted.
Do you plan for touring acts being able use the space? If yes then you should think about only purchasing equipment that is standard in a touring rider. Much of what has been discussed so far would not be excepted by a concert tour.
postmaster
Member
Thanks Gafftaper,
I have told them I am not qualified for this thing. The venue only seats 100 people max and I don't think they need all the truss etc. I don't think we are going to be able to get any touring acts, might be wrong, but the place is small. The owners are going to pay the grand opening band $10,000 and have me tasked on finding one that "people have heard of". I told them no one that "people have heard of" play for $10,000 and we need to find a really good non-recording band. Really trying to explain to them the ins and out of this thing, and not making much headway.
Doug
I have told them I am not qualified for this thing. The venue only seats 100 people max and I don't think they need all the truss etc. I don't think we are going to be able to get any touring acts, might be wrong, but the place is small. The owners are going to pay the grand opening band $10,000 and have me tasked on finding one that "people have heard of". I told them no one that "people have heard of" play for $10,000 and we need to find a really good non-recording band. Really trying to explain to them the ins and out of this thing, and not making much headway.
Doug
It depends on who and what. Chuck Berry used to get $3k a night. You get a band who knows his set list. You provide PA and lighting. You do everything. He flies in, plugs in and rips through his set. After, he grabs his cash and is gone. And the last time I saw him, 2 - 3 years ago, he was still crushing it.
I think KC and the Sunshine Band can be had for under $10K. Again, your PA, but they have a pretty big lighting rider, way bigger than your 24 LED par rig.
I'll bet you could get Tommy TuTone for $10K. Fact is, you could probably get a lot of "name" artists for $10K. Call a few talent agencies in a major city, like Chicago, Miami, LA, NYC, etc.
postmaster
Member
Morte615
Active Member
I just sent the OP a private message but thought that others here could benefit, or shoot holes in, some of my suggestions so I will repost part of the message here.
I am intrigued about the design for the truss, have you considered doing square truss set up in an overhead square, with 4 square truss legs? This setup would give the look of a rock and roll stage while offering great support and many different levels of use. If you have a house band in that preforms just with the house system then you have it already hung. If you have touring shows in that bring their own lights (or you rent some for their show) then you have an infrastructure to handle said show. A similar setup to this, http://www.bridgat.com/files/singlerow_trusscircular_trussroof_truss.jpg this can even be setup with a removable cover (as seen) for the nice nights that you would like to be able to have a clear sky overhead! This is one of many different setups that I would be glad to discuss at length. Another thing to consider with the truss will be access. Do you have man lifts available (boom or mast)? Or would you design the system so the upper truss can be lowered. Even if the upper truss can be lowered I would still consider looking into a man lift as they will be extremely handy if you would like to hang anything on the support towers.
It would not be difficult to design a booth that could have weather proof covers for all the equipment. That way when the show is over, you can cover the equipment and not need to worry about moving it inside (and hoping that no one forgets to move it in!)
Also the board I would recommend is the ETC Ion. This is a bit larger than what you may seem to need at first, but I feel this offers the most features for the cost as well as being used throughout the industry. I just did a show on Sunday at a local theater that the touring company used the same board for their show! And as stated before a programmer could program some simple effects for the board to get you started quickly, while you learn the system.
And before finishing this off I am going to ask if you are designing and installing the audio system as well as the lighting? This is something that should have just as much attention as the lighting system and should not be brushed over either.
I am intrigued about the design for the truss, have you considered doing square truss set up in an overhead square, with 4 square truss legs? This setup would give the look of a rock and roll stage while offering great support and many different levels of use. If you have a house band in that preforms just with the house system then you have it already hung. If you have touring shows in that bring their own lights (or you rent some for their show) then you have an infrastructure to handle said show. A similar setup to this, http://www.bridgat.com/files/singlerow_trusscircular_trussroof_truss.jpg this can even be setup with a removable cover (as seen) for the nice nights that you would like to be able to have a clear sky overhead! This is one of many different setups that I would be glad to discuss at length. Another thing to consider with the truss will be access. Do you have man lifts available (boom or mast)? Or would you design the system so the upper truss can be lowered. Even if the upper truss can be lowered I would still consider looking into a man lift as they will be extremely handy if you would like to hang anything on the support towers.
It would not be difficult to design a booth that could have weather proof covers for all the equipment. That way when the show is over, you can cover the equipment and not need to worry about moving it inside (and hoping that no one forgets to move it in!)
Also the board I would recommend is the ETC Ion. This is a bit larger than what you may seem to need at first, but I feel this offers the most features for the cost as well as being used throughout the industry. I just did a show on Sunday at a local theater that the touring company used the same board for their show! And as stated before a programmer could program some simple effects for the board to get you started quickly, while you learn the system.
And before finishing this off I am going to ask if you are designing and installing the audio system as well as the lighting? This is something that should have just as much attention as the lighting system and should not be brushed over either.
bishopthomas
Well-Known Member
Yes, definitely. Look into self climbing truss. You'll need motors for this, a lot are 3 phase. Do you have three phase service available? By the way, stay away from Black Oak. Not that much of a draw because they are terrible live. I mixed Jim Dandy solo once, one of the worst things I've ever heard. There are bands that draw for $10,000. I would stick with country.
A self climbing rig from a stage truss company is the cheapest method in the longrun. They have the engineering already done and it is a proven system. It also solves your cable problem, you feed the whole truss and drop the cables behind the flown sound. It is far easier to call Tomas or Tomcat and tell them what you want to do and they will engineer it, build it and ship it.
I deal with these roofs all year long, I have built tons of them. They are safe, sturdy and of a known quality. Plus when you are done with it for the year, you can take it apart in 2 hrs or less and store it.
I deal with these roofs all year long, I have built tons of them. They are safe, sturdy and of a known quality. Plus when you are done with it for the year, you can take it apart in 2 hrs or less and store it.
postmaster
Member
Yes, we have 3 phase available, so that is something I will look into. No chance are we going to have Black Oak, not much of a chance for country, the owner doesn't like country.
hang on a second everyone freaking out about the truss, I get the feeling he is building an open aired building or gazebo type structure for this, and not some sort of temporary roof. Which would be totally safe for him to do, and pretty common.
Also for the people suggesting an Ion for "future expand ability" are you kidding? This stuff is going to get installed, and be there. Its a 100 seater in the middle of no where, I don't see Mac2Ks jumping into the rig anytime soon!
Also for the people suggesting an Ion for "future expand ability" are you kidding? This stuff is going to get installed, and be there. Its a 100 seater in the middle of no where, I don't see Mac2Ks jumping into the rig anytime soon!
