Lighting with a Low ceiling

jgels

Member
Hey all. So some friends of mine are opening a comedy theater in Portland Maine. The area where they are gonna have their stage has an unfortunately low 91" drop ceiling. I am trying to help figure out how they can best light their stage (budget friendly please) they had gotten some par 20s that clearly weren't gonna work. My instinct is a fresnel would hang down too low. Any ideas?
 
I would start by looking above the ceiling. Depending on what's up there you may be able to have most of the light above the ceiling tiles.
 
The smaller you go the more expensive you get.

I would look into some trak light with some MR Lamps.
 
Once put a 40,000 watt light show in a room with that ceiling height. Substituted plexiglass panels for ceiling tiles. We were in the room for 5 months so it was worth the effort. The place was a restaurant during the day and you couldn't even tell the system was there.
And no, nothing mealted!
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40 1kw Par 64s I bet the AC and Electric bill went through the roof each night.

Also why so many lights lol.

Also also. I feel I’ve seen this picture before.
 
40 1kw Par 64s I bet the AC and Electric bill went through the roof each night.

Also why so many lights lol.

Also also. I feel I’ve seen this picture before.
I've probably posted it before. It was the 1980s, the more PARs the better, with a healthy mix of 4559 ALC chains.
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Hey all. Some friends of mine are opening a comedy theater in Portland Maine. The area where they are going to have their stage has an unfortunately low 91" drop ceiling. I am trying to help figure out how they can best light their stage (budget friendly please) they had gotten some par 20s that clearly weren't gonna work. My instinct is a fresnel would hang down too low. Any ideas?
@jgels A few queries to begin with:
- What material is the existing ceiling?
- "Drop ceiling" as in T-bar and lay in tiles or finished drywall?
- What color is the existing ceiling?
- Initially, are you looking for a fixed installation OR perhaps something CHEAP & CHEERFUL as a quick and inexpensive proof of concept?
- I can comprehend "comedy" equating to "cheerful" but please indicate your desired level of "cheapness" or perhaps "thriftiness" is a more politically correct term?
If your "drop ceiling" has a reflective white finish, be it painted drywall or tiles,
and if your levels of cheap and cheerful run towards extremely cheap and VERY cheerful . . .
and if you're primarily interested in a quickly deployed lash-up ready to pick up and run on a moment's notice . . .
and if your leaning more towards 'turn it on / turn it off' 'bare bones' illumination with minimal initial options for colors & flash 'n trash . . .
Why not consider two 500 watt incandescent Fresnels (Altman 65Q's for example) bolted to triangular 3/4" plywood floats (Triangular floats automatically stabilize without rocking on less than flawlessly flat surfaces.) located on the surface of the stage, one on each down stage corner focused up and across to both reflect down off the white reflective ceiling and simultaneously shooting up and across the performers' faces more or less as foot lights but coming from the sides rather than blinding them directly in their eyes while they're striving to see their audiences? You're in North America thus I'm assuming 120 Volts / 60 Hertz. Each 500 watt Fresnel would consume a touch over 4 Amps. (500 / 120). Odds are in your favor you could safely power them from nearby existing wall receptacles (Using ruggedized durable commercially manufactured and approved portable cables without blocking fire exits or creating trip hazards) If your budget can stand the strain, the same 'Big Box Home Store' which stocks your extension cables may also be able to sell you two decent quality pre-wired and enclosed 600 watt dimmers in case your two 500 watt Fresnels prove to be too hard on the performers' eyes and / or you want to get a little "arty" by employing a touch of McCandless style lighting with differing colors, saturations and intensities from either side to lessen the flattening effect on your performers' features. For a couple of dollars more you could easily slip a little flattering coloring in to your pair of "performance lights".
There you go, all the way from an unlit stage to two whole "performance lights" in little more than a paragraph.
I sincerely hope I haven't sank too cheap, cheerful and / or beneath your dignity.
All the best to you and yours and HAPPY FATHERS' DAY!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
Not just interesting and brilliant advice, I don't think I have seen this method done before something to try. Cool concept as long as audience can't spill drink or spoil fingers on the concept, and it doesn't wash the audience too much. Something to try which might be brilliant. 9'-1" ceiling was my lowest - got me by far beat.

Budget?
Time?
How long hoped to be there?

Initially for any space so short in the past, I would start 3" Altman Fresnels "Inkie's", and do 3.5Q5 Leko's per a normal stage lighting design. I would supplement with PAR 46 short wide focus cans. Birdies and PAR 20's are nice but a little limited in my opinion. These days I would more look to track lighting from Juno track lighting. They have a wash light I have been a fan of for years. Might look into the TL103 series of wash. I have one incandescent version at home as a reading light, and another version at an airport with some LED inserts. The LED (non insert lamp) versions are not dimmable but I just installed some into a portable solder stations in doing a good job of lighting the stand or ceiling in the case I last used it for. The track mount was removed and the fixture was installed on the tip of a LittleLight - instead so it was flexible goose arm. T260L is fun, and the T315 is their version of a PAR 20. Lead time in going Juno as a note.

ETC has a track system which I believe is the same as Altman uses in ordering their fixtures for track instead of clamp. It is a differeant track system than Juno, but the Juno lights will with some work mount to it by way of changing the track head. Not the reverse... Leko's are too heavy for Juno track adaptors. They have their mico LED Leko's which are worth some merit but are not really dimmable short of a dummy load and special dimmer packs - go with the MR-16 Halogen wide lens version if going that path.
 

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For budget friendly, something that might work, a few Osram Kreios FLx worklights in a FOH position. They can be dimmed down to maybe 15% with some dimmers. The 90 watt unit comes with a color frame so instead of just (3200K) white light you could use something for a more friendly color like a lite bastard amber. Perhaps @DELO72 could chime in about suitable dimmers, my guess is the super cheap shoe box dimmers wouldn't be the best choice. The actual fixture is 9" tall, 11.25" wide and 6" deep.
 
In this day of LED, my mind went to a mini cove with tape light as a base wash. Some small narrow strips would be more visible and practcal, and less than 6"!
I’ve never had tape light pencil out well for lumens vs $. Was considering for a community center auditorium with 9’ ceiling. The emitted angle (wide) and # of tape runs per electric (plus power supplies and controllers) grew to a big number, and the folks at City Theatrical thought it wasn’t a doable design in 2017.
 
For budget friendly, something that might work, a few Osram Kreios FLx worklights in a FOH position. They can be dimmed down to maybe 15% with some dimmers. The 90 watt unit comes with a color frame so instead of just (3200K) white light you could use something for a more friendly color like a lite bastard amber. Perhaps @DELO72 could chime in about suitable dimmers, my guess is the super cheap shoe box dimmers wouldn't be the best choice. The actual fixture is 9" tall, 11.25" wide and 6" deep.

We never tested them on household resistance dimmers (like Lutron or other Lowes/Home Depot brands), only on ETC dimmers.

Personally I like SHIP's ideas the best and agree with him. (I'm a lousy salesman to not promote our FLx, I know...)- Use small fixtures such as ETC Source Four Mini's (you might need a bunch of them as they are only ~50W), Altman 3.5" ERS or Inkys (3.5" Fresnels), or PAR16 Birdies. They all have the lowest size/profile, and might fit your needs, not knowing what your budget is.
 
Great idea for perhaps general lighting. Doesn't have to be just cove but can be in the middle of the room fixtures also when designed the same in perhaps projecting towards the stage.

My recommendation in doing cove has been in the past to make the shape of the cove light more like a "Softlight" in design of indirect to curved matt white reflector. This so efficient use of the reflection in spreading the beam is being done indirectly in the most efficient means.

After that for intensity, don't do the 3 and 4 node per color high output lighting. It is good when you only have 1/2" worth of space to place the tape, but in a cove you should have a lot more room than that. If you have a few inches in width to work with, put solid color high output, if not even high density individual tapes next to each other. Have not been able to try this solid color RGB yet a lot, but did some prototyping with a cove in a few prototypes such as high output RGB next to a high output/high density white. Note there is also four node wide, and I think even six node wide high density tape available in white and solid colors.... It's intense the amount of light output. I'm about to use some four node in a light box sign - it is as a trade off however, a wattage eater. The more in tape you can do in single color, the higher the output as a theory.

One note, I learned by mistake. The larger the load and matched transformer to it, the more it's cooling fans will turn on or be constantly on. The larger the transformer in comparison to wattage, the less the fan will be on under a lesser load. Meanwell Transformer SE series is mostly always on for fan no matter the load. The more expensive RSP series has a thermostat turning it on and off when needed.

Never really mattered before an office lobby install recently. Was told the PSU inside a large NEMA 1 box with its decoder and ETC' controllers was going into an electronics closet. Turns out somehow the PSU was to be installed into the ceiling of a hallway adjacent to the lighting. "Too Loud" - the fans in the hallway. Cost about $150.00 more in higher wattage and better transformer assuming I can re-use the 1K transformer, to install a 2Kw RSP power supply for a 1Kw need, and probably as much to overnight it as replacement to the hotel. Than a few more bucks to get that package from the hotel.

Never thought of the noise of the fan before - I mostly do rock and roll stuff and the PSU's are way out of the way. Biggest problem has been RF noise with the sound people due to the density of the LED tape and dual connections top and bottom for each in creating a RF loop. Different discussion and should not be a problem in this case.

The RSP series fan still turns on at times random = too much, and is due to be replaced by another transformer remotely located where I thought it was going to be - the electronics closet. But given how I mounted it with all the other gear in the NEMA box, the $375.00 spent on a 2Kw power supply which basically took me a day in swapping out the SE transformer for... will be bypassed = abandoned in the now just distribution box for decoder and ETC control gear. Not cost effective to remove the transformer - would take at least a day to remove. The new transformer remotely located will go in somewhere else it should have gone in the first place. Leaned some stuff. Hope it helps. Don't locate your power supply near the lighting if an over 600 Watt loading on it.
 
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Hey all. So some friends of mine are opening a comedy theater in Portland Maine. The area where they are gonna have their stage has an unfortunately low 91" drop ceiling. I am trying to help figure out how they can best light their stage (budget friendly please) they had gotten some par 20s that clearly weren't gonna work. My instinct is a fresnel would hang down too low. Any ideas?
My first thought was that mirrors are much flatter than most instruments. Stick the mirror on the ceiling and point the light up at the mirror, focusing the bounced beam where you want it on the stage. Obviously this is going to work better with spotlights and gobos, and there will be wider spread, so it may work best with washes.
 
My first thought was that mirrors are much flatter than most instruments. Stick the mirror on the ceiling and point the light up at the mirror, focusing the bounced beam where you want it on the stage. Obviously this is going to work better with spotlights and gobos, and there will be wider spread, so it may work best with washes.
Well, since you mentioned mirrors I have to once again mention I think the most famous use of a mirror for the 1972 Rolling Stones Tour with lighting by Chip Monck (of Woodstock fame). It involved a mylar mirror suspended above the audience with a row of SuperTroupers lined up at the back of the stage. The concerts in Texas were filmed and was released as Ladies and Gentlemen: The Rolling Stones! It was an awesome show, I was at the early show in Fort Worth where they added Dead Flowers and Sweet Black Angel to the set list.
 
Did an intimate space recently with community theatre with no budget with a 4-channel dimmer pack I had and some track lighting fixtures that I had acquired from a clothing retailer that had gone out of business, fixtures looked like little enclosed fresnels but just had a 50W lamp clipped to an opening at their front, only attached to the track for power used clamps to hang, we mounted pipe to the rafters for the floor above (there was no ceiling). Lit four small areas plus a bit with 14 fixtures total. Not ideal but it worked. With some budget, I'm sure you could do more. The SourceFour Minis are always tempting me but they're pricey for their light output and well outside my price range for projects like this.
 

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