Looking into picking up some LED Fixtures

[lcthebeast]

I was given a budget to write up a proposal to purchase LED fixtures, buy a new console, and change our house over to dimmer per circuit. I know the dimmer per circuit for 216~ circuits will take up the bulk of my budget. (We had our place spec'd out a few years back for this same thing but it never went through.) What LED fixtures would compliment a mostly conventional house. I'm assuming the Selador series will be out of my range and was hoping you could point me in the right way of some other decent fixtures.

Our trim height is 17'-18' and battens are 50' wide. I planned on using 5 or 6 fixtures across 5 electrics with a 40*-45* throw on each fixture. Also we wanted LED Cyc fixtures from the bottom and top of a 22'x50' wide cyc.

-Thank you

 

[jglodeklights]

If you are looking into LED fixtures, why do you need to go the full 216 dimmers? Why do you need 216 dimmers anyway? Why can't 144, 168 or 192 suffice, especially with LED's complementing them? You could buy two ETC SR-48 racks and swap cards around as necessary.

Some more information about your current set up and how the space is used will help us help you.

 

[lcthebeast]

My boss wants the full dimmer per circuit. I find it to be not necessary due to the LEDs freeing up a lot of our inventory and dimmers. We have 21 old style 7.2k dimmers and 15 etc dimmers in D20 modules feeding our pig tail patch. The rest of our 33 dimmers and 12 dimmer Sensor rack are hot patched to other circuits. I will try to explain why dimmer per circuit is an awful idea for all our hard to reach circuits. We also want to have a proper disconnect put in an easier to access location. I think he has too big of dreams on a medium budget.

 

[gafftaper]

There's no reason to have that many dimmed circuits if you want to go LED. Remember that LED fixtures MUST have NON-Dimmed power. If you run them through a dimmer you will damage the LED's in a short time. If you plan to only use LED's then you don't need dimmers at all. If you plan to use a mix of LED's and conventionals then buy what you need for your inventory. But there's no reason to install 216 dimmers. That's pointless. Put the money into good fixtures.

If you do some research you'll find a good deal of discussion of LED's here. The short version is Seledor is the only LED product out there that really does a good job with the subtle pastels we expect in theatrical lighting. There are plenty of great RGB/RGBA/RGBAW) fixtures out there which you can use for back light, cyc lighting, and concert lighting (even top or side lighting for some theater shows). But for the most part (in my opinion) you either need to stay incandescent or go with Seladors for your down and front light. Everything else is just not subtle enough for theater. My advice would be to dump all those dimmers and go Selador.

Non Selador options to consider: The Altman Spectra Pars, Elation LED's, and Apollo's LED's are all good fixtures to consider and less money than a Selador. Finally, contact CB's BillESC's for information on his Chinese imports. They are much more reasonably priced and pack a lot of colorful punch. But none of these fixtures be they big name or Chinese import has that subtle pastel white color palette we expect for live theater front light.

EDIT: Selador's are expensive but often not THAT much more than LED's of similar output (Especially if you don't have to buy a dimmer to power it). You often have to purchase two units from another manufacture to get the same lumen out put of one Selador, so do your math carefully as you compare. Second figure out how much money you save by only installing 48 dimmers instead of 216. That's a lot of money you could spend on Seladors.

 

[Kelite]

Without shamelessly plugging a product, you may compare the HP (High Power) RGB and RGBAW fixtures here-

Multiform HP5-70 | From The Horse's Mouth

 

[BGW]

I think it's nice to have the flexibility of the full rack. You can always use constant power or relay modules to feed the LED fixtures. I don't think you need that many channels if you're moving towards LEDs, but I'd keep a rack with at least 150 channels to provide future flexibility. Also, I don't know about the Sensor racks, but our massive Teatronics installation powers computerized fixtures just fine as long as the channel is set to full. At that point, the control module sends out a constant 10vDC to the SSR, and the power coming out is perfect sine waves (output=input exactly). I've put a 'scope on the AC output of a module, and the DC control signal to verify this.

 

[Gern]

... our massive Teatronics installation powers computerized fixtures just fine as long as the channel is set to full. At that point, the control module sends out a constant 10vDC to the SSR, and the power coming out is perfect sine waves (output=input exactly). I've put a 'scope on the AC output of a module, and the DC control signal to verify this.

Hmm, I'm not familiar with Teatronics. How do they do that? Just by bringing the channel level to full? Are you sure there isn't another setting that needs to be adjusted, maybe on the dimmer control card or something?

 

[BGW]

Teatronics is a smaller outfit that is all too frequently overlooked. Their controls are dated, but everything else is current and designed/built extremely well.

Like I said, I can't vouch for other systems, but in ours (Teatronics MD-288), when a channel receives the full DMX value, the control module holds the SSR closed and the output power is perfectly clean. As far as I know, the only settings on the control modules of the rack deal with analog, AMX, and DMX inputs/addresses. Ramp time, relay modes, etc are all controlled by the individual dimming modules.

If you're not sure about a system, I wouldn't trust it to send perfectly clean power just by doing that. However, there's no reason at all why you can't plug intelligent lighting into a central dimming system so long as the proper precautions are taken: the corresponding modules/dimmers in the rack must be set to relay or constant power mode, and the dimmer addresses must be removed from any channel assignments in the console.

*Edit: Don't do this at all with ETC stuff. I was just reading that their modules MUST be physically interchanged with relays or constants. I don't know enough about the ETC racks to say where they differ from the Teatronics, but I know it works for us. The 'scope displayed a sine wave identical to that of the supply, and I ran several sacrificial Chauvet intelligent fixtures for days just to make sure.

 

[BGW]

lcthebeast, don't mean to derail the thread, but I just wanted to add one more thing:

LEDs aren't the reason intelligent fixtures can't be used on dimming channels. They're very simple- (personifying them) they don't give a rat's behind as to what kind of power they're fed so long as the current is limited to the proper amount. They look terrible with choppy power, but it doesn't "hurt" them one iota. There are a few LED fixtures (sans built-in controls) that can be placed on dimmers, but they're generally the cheap ones because LEDs don't respond well to dimming with SCRs. Pulse Width Modulation is needed to dim LEDs effectively.

The main reason intelligent fixtures (like most LED fixtures) can't be used on dimming channels is their power supplies. The switching power supplies used in them can overheat and/or let the magic smoke out if fed choppy power.

There's more to it than that but I don't want to go OT even more than I have . I just wanted to clarify.

 

[derekleffew]

...Also, I don't know about the Sensor racks, but our massive Teatronics installation powers computerized fixtures just fine as long as the channel is set to full. At that point, the control module sends out a constant 10vDC to the SSR, and the power coming out is perfect sine waves (output=input exactly). I've put a 'scope on the AC output of a module, and the DC control signal to verify this.

...*Edit: Don't do this at all with ETC stuff. I was just reading that their modules MUST be physically interchanged with relays or constants. I don't know enough about the ETC racks to say where they differ from the Teatronics, but I know it works for us. The 'scope displayed a sine wave identical to that of the supply, and I ran several sacrificial Chauvet intelligent fixtures for days just to make sure.

Note that both Teatronics and ETC are using the same SSR technology (as are all other dimmer manufacturers). Putting a non-resistive load on any dimmer, phase control is never advisable. ETC Sensor may get a bad rap simply because it's the one most discussed--the perils that come with being most popular.

 

[chausman]

Like I said, I can't vouch for other systems, but in ours (Teatronics MD-288), when a channel receives the full DMX value, the control module holds the SSR closed and the output power is perfectly clean.

Yes, but what if someone bumps that channel? What if there is some reason to pull the master down, even a little bit? What if there is a DMX hiccup?

 

[BGW]

derekleffew, I wasn't trying to put down the Sensor racks. Contrary to what you may have heard, the Teatronics racks use flux capacitors to warp the space-time continuum in order to affect people's perception of the lighting. J/K, of course all of the dimmers use the same technology. The "power cubes" are slightly different, no doubt, but I was mostly basing my weak comparison off of the control electronics. The Sensor controls are more complex than the 288's, so I was making the assumption that the simpler 288 controls are the basis of the rack's incredible flexibility. Also, SSRs are used for inductive and other non-resistive loads all the time, just not when they're installed in a lighting rack. My observation was simply that the 288 rack can be made to run other types of loads; however, I wouldn't recommend it and I'm sure Teatronics wouldn't either.

Yes, but what if someone bumps that channel? What if there is some reason to pull the master down, even a little bit? What if there is a DMX hiccup?

Exactly. It's like playing with fire. I was describing how our racks behave and I forgot to state how I actually tested those sacrifical fixtures. The 288 racks can accept any type of control, and can process DMX/AMX and analog inputs at the same time. I set up a DC power supply near the racks to act as an analog input. The highest signal level is used by the control module, so even if the DMX fluked out (didn't even have the dimmers assigned on the board though), the analog would have kept it closed.

Looking back, it was stupid to post this. Many people here (including the OP) work in a professional environment. I'm at school, we were in between productions, and I knew no one else was going to be around that could mess with the setup. I mostly did it to compare the properties of the 288 rack to those of previous systems I've dealt with. I would never recommend doing it for a show- there is way too much risk involved, and the human factor is astronomical. If someone didn't know how it was set up, they could remove the signal and damage the expensive fixtures. There's no real reason to either- Teatronics offers any type of module you could want, and if you're in a rush, the modules are easy enough to rewire for constant power situations.

I mostly just wanted to say that you can, under the right provisions, use a central system's wiring to feed intelligent lighting. That's all.

 

[Morte615]

Yes, but what if someone bumps that channel? What if there is some reason to pull the master down, even a little bit? What if there is a DMX hiccup?

Use a dimmer curve that equals 1% at 100%, or even use the Hot Patch dimmer curve which means as long as the rack is on, the address is full on (100%)

 

[DavidNorth]

I think we have to seperate manufacturers specific products from physics. Contrary to what was posted earlier, I can guarantee that with a reasonable load on a dimmer [ie one or more LED fixtures, MLs or tungsten], the power out of a SCR or triac based dimmer driven to full on is not a sinewave. Between the power device, and most notably the choke, there are some leading and trailing modifications to the waveform. More importantly, a switching power supply can creat some waveform havoc when combined with a choke....this is even worse when the Power Factor is not 1.

The safest thing to do for LEDs and MLs by far is to provide a relay or constant power circuit. Can you use a dimmer set to full? Depends on the device and your willingness to have it misbehave or fail. Some VLs will fail as will LED fixtures from a few manufacturers. Based on a multi-year test in the Technical Service lab, I can tell you that a Selador Vivid will not fail on power dimmed up and down, however, I do not recommend doing that.

There are a couple of reasons that LED and ML manufacturers say not to use a dimmer. First is some of them will fail and the other reason, well, they don't know what your specific dimmer system is capable of doing.

Also, even though this has been covered many times, setting a dimmer profile on a channel to full in patch does NOT mean that the dimmer will not still be regulating. You must make this change in the control module for the dimmer rack. This is universal among all manufacturers. If you have a rack that does not regulate or has a low voltage feed below the regulation point, you might get away with this, but then you are still gambling. Don't do it.

One other thing to remind people on again, please do not go into your dimmer rack and modify your dimmer modules to provide constant power. You are taking on a liability and safety risk. Chokes are there to provide both a rise time and a SCCR rating. Don't do it.

Listen, I grew up in theatre and I know that the mindset is to always find a low-cost solution to every problem. We are praised for our engineering technique on the fly. But if you want to run your $1000 LED fixtures or $4000 ML on a dimmer, the first failure will then pay for lots of relay modules that you could have already been using. use the right tool for the right job. You know, these lights are only going to become more prevalent and your power and data system needs to grow to meet that demand.

Thanks for listening,
David

 

[JD]

I want to go back to one of the earlier questions posted- Are you sure you want to invest that much into new conventional dimmers? LEDs are making progress leaps and bounds. There will always be a need for some conventionals, but 216 new dimmers? What currently still works? System planning usually involves looking 10 years ahead. In my own opinion, the role of conventionals will diminish over the next 10 years.

 

[nimblebrain]

I was given a budget to write up a proposal to purchase LED fixtures, buy a new console, and change our house over to dimmer per circuit. I know the dimmer per circuit for 216~ circuits will take up the bulk of my budget. (We had our place spec'd out a few years back for this same thing but it never went through.) What LED fixtures would compliment a mostly conventional house. I'm assuming the Selador series will be out of my range and was hoping you could point me in the right way of some other decent fixtures.

Our trim height is 17'-18' and battens are 50' wide. I planned on using 5 or 6 fixtures across 5 electrics with a 40*-45* throw on each fixture. Also we wanted LED Cyc fixtures from the bottom and top of a 22'x50' wide cyc.

-Thank you

here are a couple thoughts:

i agree, defaulting to the number of potential circuits you have now, is probably not a good first appraoch.

info i usually start with is :
1 how big is stage deck
2 rigging height of lighting pipes
3 distances from FOH positions to stage deck
4 budget size - you can either start with a design and apply some budget pricing goals, or start with a budget available and design to that.
5 if you are going to put this out to bid - then hire a theatre consultant NOW. a good reputable consultant can do the budget creation for you, and help foster the project through development.
6 I don't believe it is possible to say out of hand that any LED hybrid system is out of your budget range, because when you do decide to " take the LED plunge" that effects a lot of other components of the hybrid system - your distribution ( plug strips or circuit drops ) will be reduced and augmented perhaps with either distributed A/C outlets or relays. LED based systems eliminate a lot of need for dimming, but increase control interface needs - so a hybrid budget and design is very different form a conventional design.

i start by drafting a 3 d model of the space wall to wall, with current hanging positions.

then drop in LED fixtures ( base it on the Selador if you like ) they are in my opinion the most currently compateble fixtures for blending with conventionals. drop them in to a design as washes and cycs.

drop in the conventionals you think you would ultimattly want to have. but be aware of what the use of all those LED's has accomplished already in the design. bet you dont need 200 + conventionals.

then drop ion what would be required for dimming and switching.

drop in plenty of network outputs ( net or DMX ) at every position ( both ends if possible )

start from the fixtures and work backwards deductively to the dimming and switching. the world is very different now in terms of laying out systems

i also suggest that we will move more and more to low energy sources ( dont need all them 2400 watt dimmers every two feet ) and more to data driven switched fixtures. design now for that.

hire a good consultant, they are worth their weight in gold in terms of formalizing your process, opening up options, and sourcing the best providers and executors for a quality competitive system.

my ultimate system is : dimmer per circuit,channel per fixture. and I mean any kind of fixture ! have fun.

just my advice.....

 

[Morte615]

One thing to keep in mind, is that LED fixtures use up a lot more DMX addresses than conventional fixtures. You may want to consider running the ability of more than one universe. Now that doesn't have to mean running the universes now, but I would consider using an Ethernet based system. I would at least run from the booth to the stage at first, and if down the road you decide you need more universes all you have to do is use another controller on the stage side. Plus Cat5 or Cat6 cable is probably cheaper than good quality DMX.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I just want to drop in and mention that anyone looking into LED owes it to themselves to shoot out ETC Selador and Chroma Q ColorForce side by side. The results may surprise you.

 

[shiben]

my ultimate system is : dimmer per circuit,channel per fixture. and I mean any kind of fixture ! have fun.

just my advice.....

I personally have had some seriously disappointing situations with installed raceways and plug strips. The more I work with them, the more I advocate for having Saco at a few key points, and dropping breakouts to where its needed. Using a system like this, you could conceivably make your dimmers last longer, get maybe 150 dimmers, and have breakouts 1,2,3 and 4 be doubled up, with an out at your FoH hang position and perhaps over the stage or something, with 5,6,7,8 etc, being dropped where you need them, maybe spaced along your LX pipes or something... The last theater I spent an inordinate amount of time in had 3 catwalks, 2 FoH and one Pros. Bridge. 3 dead hung LX pipes. Had 30 Circuits on the far DS cat, 33 on the DS Cat, 33 on the bridge, 12 on the floor, and a couple odd fellows scattered around. However, we never used the DS cat because it was blocked by Speakers and whatnot, so that ended up being 33 circuits that in the renovation they kept in what was effectively a useless space. Had those also had a tap over the stage or on the floor, it would have been far more convenient just to re-plug a breakout on the deck instead of running 33 150' cables. Also, I dont know if there is any cost savings per se in eliminating a raceway and plugs and whatnot, but it would be super nice, in my opinion. Much more flexible. Also, you could potentially use the same system to distribute 120V constant, just use L5-20 plugs on your breakouts, and maybe label them in Red instead of black, or whatever, instead of 2P&G... Does this make sense to people who deal with installed systems more often? Havent really dealt with one in a while, having everything temporary can be a blessing (or a curse if it involves a tent). Just a thought.

 

[n1ist]

120V constant, just use L6-20 plugs

Use L5-20 for 120V, L6 for 208V/240V
/mike