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Old 360Q's

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by gafftapegreenia, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    My college has a number of early 360Q's in its inventory. These were before Altman began casting heat fins into the pineapple. These 360Q's are the same brown hammertone as the ones from highschool, but are obviously older due to lack oh heat fins. My biggest problem as I have been scrapping a few beyond all hope (gasp) and putting a few back together is thus: is there any way to get those old shutters out without cutting them up? Maybe I'm blind, but those shutters will NOT come out of the slits cast into the housing. Seems like a bad design choice, non-replaceable shutters, any suggestions as to how to remove these?
     
  2. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    If memory serves, you have to drill out the rivet holding the fiber 1" circles to the shutter handles, then pull from the inside. Now install the new one (or the used one in better shape, and re-rivet, or use little bolts and nuts and LocTite to hold the heat-resistant "handles" on. Keep another unit open so you get the shutters back in the same "plane" from whence they came.

    I don't recall any mfg. making "replaceable shutters back then. What kind of new-fangled concept is that? Diecast Century Lekolights used thin stainless shutters that would cut your hand, would you prefer that?

    Or the Strand Lekolight just before the SL series had shutters that were too easily removed--look at them funny and they'd fall out. In 2000, I was focusing the FOH catwalk for a friend and he asked for a cut off the SL proscenium. It was my first time using these lights and boy was I surprised when I reached on my left side of the fixture only to find no shutter there! Then I realized that that particular light I was on had no shutters whatsoever. I yelled, "Hang on, I have to go find a shutter." Having never worked with these lights either, he gave me the most puzzled look, while I pulled a shutter out of an adjacent light and shoved it in the light that was lit. We finished the focus and when I got down to his level I explained to him. This was a state-of-the-art light in 1991.
    I didn't mind them other than that, but no one else would use them because they weren't SourceFours, so they became landfill, even the 6 15° units that I loved as specials. By the way, there was very little intensity difference between a 19° S4 575 and a 20° Strand Leko with an FEL (sorry ship, I didn't know any better.) We had more than enough dimmers and the hotel paid for the power.
     
  3. Dustincoc

    Dustincoc Active Member

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    For some reason I'm thinking that new shutters come with rivets and heat-resistant handles for you to install after you put the shutter in the unit.

    If the units your scrapping hav good shutters in them, it may be easier to just swap the ?gate?(the section that holds the shutters, gobo slot, and iris) than to change out the shutters individually.

    The Altman min-zoom shutters are also too easy to remove, I had to track down and install shutters in over half of ours at the last hang.

    How hard is it to replace the shutters in a century Lekolight? We've still got some in our small theatre that are missing shutters.
     
  4. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    The shutters on the 360Q were not designed to just slide out. You either need to cut them or as derek said, drill out the rivets. Any new shutters will come with parts. You will need a pop rivet tool to put them together. It isn't hard, it just is probably more work than you wanted to do.
     
  5. Grog12

    Grog12 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Those old Strand Century's were POS's...not only would the shutter fall out if you looked at it funny but it would fall out of optimization if a butterfly farted in another county.
     
  6. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Watch it mister. In my mind there's no such thing as an "old" Strand Century anything. Are you talking about the first generation TP-22 base Lekolight with the joystick lamp adjustment, c. 1978-1988? Because those shutters were captive. The one's whose shutters fall out were I believe 1988-1994 Strand Lekolite, need a phillips screwdriver to align the lamp and must rotate lamp cap 1/8 turn on yawl axis then pull out the back. It has the letters "LEKO" about 1.5" high near the rear of the fixture? Then Strand dropped the Leko name with the SL series in 1995 to compete with the ETC SourceFour ERS.

    Personally I was always of the mind that the joystick alignment was a problem. I used to have a saying: "Align a 360Q with three screws and one in the middle and it stays that way forever, OR use a joystick every time you focus the light." I did like the ability of in-out for peak vs. cosine beam distribution however. Never liked the Altman Speed Caps, but that may be all they sell now.

    As to replacing the Diecast Century Lekolight's stainless steel shutters, never needed to do it, so can't help you there.
     
  7. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Funny how what's always been standard in my life, replaceable shutters, gobo slots, we once not so common.

    If that's what it takes to replace the old 360Q shutters, so be it. I'm willing to do it.

    Also I've used those Century Die-Cast tanks before. The only problem I had with the shutters were that the handles had very small nobs on them and offered practically no heat insulation.
     
  8. Dustincoc

    Dustincoc Active Member

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    I'm still using 12 of the old pre-gobo Century lighting LekoLights. Anyone know how to replace those shutters?
     
  9. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Replacing shutters on a Diecast Century Lekolight (gray aluminum housing) #2231 or similar: Now that I think about it, If you move the blade, say the top blade, all the way to the right (or left), I believe one corner of the leading edge of the blade will slide out of the slot. You just have to play quite a bit with it. Getting them back in, and figuring out between which pieces of sheet stock it goes is even more challenging. Basically, pretend you're trying to make the sharpest angle possible, with the cut out as far as possible.

    Just for fun, I've attached a picture of a shutter from a Strand Lekolight #2215, 2220, 2230, or 2240, not sure which as I found it on the floor of the FOH catwalk in 2000. The fixtures were purchased in 1993.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2007
  10. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Hmm, pre-fin pineapples.. Can’t imagine unless the absolute original type. Take photos and are you sure they are Altman? “Deekleffew” no problem on the FEL - I used them too at times, and completely agree with you on the drilling them out rather than falling out in experiences with other fixtures than cited. Pain in the rear - this especially since Altman has changed rivet size over the years... PITA...

    By the way, rivets and handles don’t persay come with the handle/shutter... persay unless as part of an assembly. Side note, unless you buy aluminum rivets of 5/32 or were they 1/8 or 3/16" - forget in this case, they need to be both aluminum shank and aluminum flange, your rivet will rip right thru what is the plastic or fiber handle material. Just a note in buying rivets that are all aluminum and no steel in them or they will tension themselves a wee bit too tight.

    Century shutters should match the overall design of a 360 shutter and possibly that of a 360Q or say a 1KAL type. In other words, Altman no doubt is still making them. This or if you have one shutter, easy enough to have made for you. Beyond this, there is still a place Hub that sells the old gear listed before on the website.

    “Derekleffew”’s observation of never having to had replace a set of Century shutters I also totally have to agree with in my case also. Can be done but if absolutely needed they at most can be ground down no doubt to a fresh flat edge. Hmm, given the photo from the above... I might have a few of these shutters in stock extra, but otherwise it should be easy enough to get thru Hub or made for you. Is that the shutter - I have never worked that type before, the Century ones I am more used to are more like Altman so perhaps younger as it were. Than of course still waiting on the storage building to find my two 8x9 fixtures somewhere about the building.... perhaps they were like that.
     
  11. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Oh, I will take some pic's for sure. They are Altman, they still have their old yellow factory stickers on them for lamp specs and what not. Yes, no heat fins on the pineapple, and on some the gel frame holders actually have corners, so its an actual square, instead of the octagonal "open corner" shape of all other 360Q's.
     
  12. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    gafftapegreenia, you have history in your hands, my friend. The first axial ERS ALtman made. When changing from radial (top loaders) to Axial, they just "bent" the lamp house, changed the socket, and put in a reflector with a smaller hole. Ship, was it Thorn who made an FEL that was just slightly too large in diameter to fit thru the hole? Worked in Strand units, though. In what condition are the sockets? It is a TP-22 socket, right? Do they have fiberglass sleeving or asbestos leads? The label says "500-750 EHF, EHG, EHD" lamps only? Never a 1000W FEL.;) Ship will tell you the correct lamp to buy. Does it say "Alzac" reflector on the label? IS the reflector "double-flatted"? That may have been a Century-Strand marketing tool, but it does make sense.

    When you're done, they'll out perform a 575W Source4, or at least come very close. If some units have to die so others may live live, so be it. I believe the military calls that "acceptable losses" or "collateral damage" or some such thing.

    And yes, gafftapegreenia, at one time if you wanted an iris unit it couldn't have shutters, and if you intended to put in a gobo you'd better have spec'd that. And since there were no rotating barrels, when you couldn't get the cut from the box boom to line up with the prosc. as the LD wanted, you simply yelled "Best Angle," and the LD had no choice but to move on, or wait to rehang the light somehow. Those were the days. We didn't have to put in R114, R119, R132 to soften the edges as they weren't that sharp to begin with! Good times.
     
  13. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    WOW. I knew that were unique, but that's pretty awesome. When I'm done the studio will have some rather nice lights. The majority of 360Q's look to have been rewired in the past. I suspect they were asbestos at one time. Of course, they need to be rewired again. Not only was a 16 or 14 guage wire used on a few of them, but whoever rewired them used 2P&G connectors designed for 3-wire asbestos whips. Those that do have proper wiring have dry rotted.

    I will likely need to replace shutters as well. Interestingly, the shutters are more damaged on the NEWER (black paint) 360Q's. Most of the ones that are lamped have an EHD. No FEL's in these instruments.

    The reflectors seem to be in good condition, however the baffle used to reflect stray light back into the main reflector has lost all its coating and will need to be replaced.

    Ideally, when cleaned up and re-wired, these should live on for quite a while. The ones I am parting out are truly finished. The pineapple is actually damaged, and other major problems prohibit their saving.

    First, I plan on looking at each light individually and figuring out what I need. After I get all my parts, I'm going to line 'em up and fix 'em up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2007
  14. church

    church Active Member

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    changing the shutters on the old grey Strand century radial Lekos is straightforward.

    Simply remove the lens tube. Then remove the lens barrel - four screws - to remove it from the diecast housing. Loose the four screws. Remove the four silver spring clips that allow the gobo holder plate and the four focal plane plates with shutters to slide off the housing. Replace the shutters, one between each pair of paltes. Re install on the housing. Confirm that you have put the gobo holder on upside down and reinstall. re install the spring clips. Search the workshop for the spring clip that has sprung. Re install the lens barrel. Curse the four mising screws. Find screws and install. Put back the lens barrel.

    With practice it can be done in ten minutes. By the way those spring clips can be adjusted with pliers to allow you to actually use the shutters without cutting your hands to ribbons
     
  15. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Thanks, Church, you've replaced shutters before?;) What's the easiest way to replaced the broken latch on the bottom of the Strand-Century Lekolight? The one that allows the user to open the unit to retrieve the gobo that is lost inside, and to remove the pregnant lamp that won't fit through the reflector's hole? Take that Source4! I didn't even know pattern holders existed until I'd been using gobos for two years. Fun holding a Leko upside down and shaking it to get the old gobo out!
     
  16. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    We use a big honker set of tin snips to cut off the insulated handle end of the old shutter, then do the pop rivet-the-new-insulators on the newly installed shutters, which BTW, need to be installed from the inside out.

    SB
     
  17. Les

    Les Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    For the 360Q's, I've noticed that usually it's just the rivet that keeps the shutter from coming completely out. So one day I decided to get lazy and put the shutter tab on the concrete floor (the gate had to be off for this to work, but if you had a strong table or something like an anvil the same effect could be had without taking the light completely apart) and I flattened the rivet into the insulated washer with a hammer. Then they came right out. I was even able to work some back into a temporarily usable shape and reinstall them, and only one fiber tab actually cracked from beating on it. I wouldn't recommend this if you intend on reusing the fiber tab, but if yours are what you would consider trash and intend on buying new ones anyway, this is a lot easier than drilling them out, or if your tin snips couldn't cut it. (mine couldn't).
     
  18. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Dry-rotted? Are you sure? I don't think PVC insulation and fiberglass sleeving CAN dry rot. As for existing wire size, The TP-22 socket should have come with 36" hi-temp leads. While at first these wires (both white, BTW) seem undersized, remember they just have to carry 750W or 6.25A. They may even be 18g. BTW, ship recommends Altman #97-1580 lamp base as a replacement socket. www.altmanltg.com You might also need to source Green 16g hi-temp wire and the fiberglass sleeving. Most important is the strain relief at the lamp cap and I believe I've read ship's strong feelings on that also.

    See the Collaborative Article "Lamps" in the Wiki area for his lamp recommendations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  19. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Ok, it's probably not dry rot, but the insulation on the leads are brittle and cracking. The wires are different sizes on the same fixtures as well. As I said, whoever rewired last didn't do the best of jobs.
     
  20. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I remember this note from somewhere about some lamp being larger but don’t list a Thorn spec on the FEL lamp nor remember what lamp it was I remember. Been around quite a few lamps over the years that didn't quite fit as well as one would wish in the 750w range also dependant upon the era of the reflector. Old reflectors or newer lots of them - I forget which size possibly a middle era of them didn't fit anything bigger than a T-6 well, or even a T-6 - this would be anything in or larger than the 20mm range thus as a 20mm spec - mostly what's coming from Europe such as Thorn. New website/company for me, Don’s Lamps (don’t have a link at home at the moment) might have the old Thorn spec. - very thorough in how the lamp specs are done. Phillips lamps I do note in general are 20mm from 575w to 1,000w which would be a tight fit. A few Ushio lamps are also 20mm in dia. The discontinued GE EHG #39770 also lists a 20mm dia, perhaps this is the GE/Thorn lamp I'm thinking of. It is larger than other EHG lamps and later became a T-6. The same era of FEL that's discontinued from GE #35607 lists a T-6 but perhaps given it's not a metric measurement it was rounded down as per common practice. This GE lamp would no doubt be the GE/Thorn.


    TP-22 is the lamp base style - Medium Bi-Pin is the typical lamp description of it or more accurately it would be a G-9.5 lamp base.


    Those “gate reflectors” I call them often catch more damage than the main reflector. Not totally sure why.

    Good news on strain reliefs by the way, Altman just upgraded the crappy ones they used to sell that were some kind of China made rough cast ones that had sharp edges on them parts of the casting sticking out in preventing it from getting tight and loose tolerances on the screw threads. The upgraded ones are much better ready to use.
     

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